This isn't "implying conspiracy."
touché, sorry my english is a little rough sometimes
Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. - page 842. (Read 2032266 times)
touché, sorry my english is a little rough sometimes
Do not spin my words around.
Giving the benefit of the doubt to well respected members of the community is NOT blind trust. It is called exactly that, respect.
It is perfectly fine to consider what COULD go wrong. It is another thing to imply conspiration to damage Bitcoin when there is NO signs and incentives of doing so.
If we're not going to spin words around, then please start by not spinning mine.Giving the benefit of the doubt to well respected members of the community is NOT blind trust. It is called exactly that, respect.
It is perfectly fine to consider what COULD go wrong. It is another thing to imply conspiration to damage Bitcoin when there is NO signs and incentives of doing so.
I observed a potential problem, and I give a set of conditions which would reduce or eliminate my concerns:
https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/2k3u97/we_are_bitcoin_sidechain_paper_authors_adam_back/clhp60y?context=3
Note that I haven't heard anyone say that the conditions I put forward are unreasonable.
This isn't "implying conspiracy."
Why is this a problem if the code is all open source?
actually, this is very true. for all my ranting, in the end, i think they fail spectacularly. i could be wrong.
but given Bitcoin's future price projections due to its fixed supply and liquidity as a new form of money, why on earth would anyone move BTC to a high risk, low security Sidechain?
Besides true anonymity or stupidity, we dont know because we arent psychic. But the point is that this development addresses future unknowns in a really amazing way.
you're missing the overall pt. it doesn't matter what the feature is that gives the SC an advantage. first off, the advantage could be gained b/c the Blockstream core devs have preferentially worked on that feature for the SC as opposed to the main chain. then if that SC takes off, as JR said, they might block that feature from being incorporated into the main chain. the problem is that there are too many of them working under the same roof. the scenario where that might happen is if that SC has its own altcoin that they've invested in that's riding along with the transferred BTC.
anything i say has bias as i'm invested in Bitcoin just like most everyone else around here. the difference being, that i'm not the one recommending changes. i invested under one set of assumptions and imo, this changes things potentially.
anything i say has bias as i'm invested in Bitcoin just like most everyone else around here. the difference being, that i'm not the one recommending changes. i invested under one set of assumptions and imo, this changes things potentially.
Everything they are developing is open source. They cannot block implementation of anything. It seems disingenuous to me, considering some of the answers given in the AMA, to suggest the BTC main core devs would implicitly hurt Bitcoin's development in favor of Blockstream's business. Additionally, any indication of unethical behavior by them could certainly lead to them losing their position as BTC main core developer.
They have specifically stated in the AMA they will NOT create their own altcoin or currency.
Also, your concern of financial incentives corrupting their actions is misguided. Do not forget that ALL of them have vested interest into Bitcoin already. They stand to make considerably more money creating sensible SC features that improve the Bitcoin economy.
look, i don't know how old you are, but what we're talking about here is A LOT of money. the whole ethos of Bitcoin is as a trustless currency. that currency depends on it's source code. any changes to that code can change the economic assumptions and those correctly positioned can make LOTS. to have core devs under the employment of a for-profit company is ridiculous. it doesn't make any difference that they've behaved up to this point. look what happened in 2008 in the GFC. tremendous amounts of trust were lost in were supposed to be institutions to protect our form of capitalism. didn't work out when the shit hit the fan did it? are you willing to risk the entire Bitcoin system to have 5 devs who commit to the Bitcoin source while employed by Austin Hill, a hedge fund guy?
Ok so some people should hire one or two of them away from Blockstream. What's ridiculous is that large holders expect these people to work for free -- AND that there are so few core developers.
Don't fight to squelch proposed technological innovation just because you are afraid of the human political/legal/social organization that coalesced to implement it. Keep in mind that this idea was proposed long before this organization existed...
As for the bolded statement, this is true of any alt chain, sidechain or not. I don't see how sidechains would effectively assist and benefit pump & dump opportunities. A fool and his money are soon parted, no matter the way.
it could even accelerate the sidescams since it will now be so easy to slide BTC over to that SC. plus, this concept has the blessing of core devs, whom you so trust, right?
Nonsense
First, it is already easy as it is to convert BTC into any other coin. Altcoin exchanges are readily available and require know KYC/AML hurdle to jump through to register.
Second, these devs are not responsible for the possibility that someone create "sidescams" and fool naive people into moving their BTC to this chain.
What you are saying is akin to suggesting Satoshi is to be held accountable for creating the concept allowing for scamcoins to thrive.
look, i don't know how old you are, but what we're talking about here is A LOT of money. the whole ethos of Bitcoin is as a trustless currency. that currency depends on it's source code. any changes to that code can change the economic assumptions and those correctly positioned can make LOTS. to have core devs under the employment of a for-profit company is ridiculous. it doesn't make any difference that they've behaved up to this point. look what happened in 2008 in the GFC. tremendous amounts of trust were lost in were supposed to be institutions to protect our form of capitalism. didn't work out when the shit hit the fan did it? are you willing to risk the entire Bitcoin system to have 5 devs who commit to the Bitcoin source while employed by Austin Hill, a hedge fund guy?
how is it ridiculous if the for-profit company in question works to IMPROVE the Bitcoin technology and has EVERY incentive to do so in a legitimate community approved way?
comparison to 2008 is asinine. Bitcoin development is an open source process.
I repeat, these 5 devs have every incentive to work in a transparent and community focused manner. You are suggesting they will go rogue and commit damaging code to the Bitcoin main core and that the community, the miners, and everyone running a node will play along? This is tinfoil hat status AFAIC.
Attacking Austin Hill personally just because you dislike the guy isn't helping your cause either? I know some people who, contrary to you, have worked with Austin personally and can certainly vouch for him. It appears a great deal of industry people do so as well so right now, it seems to me you're alone in your corner, with Peter Todd maybe, trying to pin bad intentions to a person with nothing but words to back up your claims.
What happens if one of these side chain alts becomes very successful (for example is supported by the banking system) and begins to draw a large number of bitcoins in circulation into lockdown.
many of us will have a bad time running around gathering up cold storage wallets to transfer to the new SC. possible privacy leaks galore, not to mention risk.
lol, SideChain is backed by bitcoin. SideChain is protocol. SideChain is only temporary. The only way sidechain can outperform Bitcoin is when Bitcoin security is broken and SC's is not.
That's right. To state it clearly, there will be an arbitrage opportunity. Buy BTC, transfer into SC, sell SCBTC, buy BTC. So the price of bitcoin will be lifted with the added value sidechains bring. In this sense inca, the child chain can never "destroy" Bitcoin even if it ends up carrying 99.9% of the transactions.
To address Cypherdoc and other people's "what if" questions about the future, "we" (as in the Bitcoin evangelizing crowd) have been selling bitcoin as the "TCP" (or "HTTP") of finance -- anything can be layered on it. That is the "promise" of Bitcoin as a world currency. But you can't really layer applications on top of it like you can TCP or HTTP, except in a very small 40 byte per txn area, and in the awkward colored coin concept. Sure, you can make an independent app that happens to accept payment in Bitcoin, like a centralized storefront. But that is hardly layered "on" the Bitcoin protocol.
Sidechains IS the technology that really lets us build anything "on" Bitcoin. Because the value of Bitcoin is NOT in the code -- otherwise running on testnet and/or altcoins would be much more valuable. The real value programmers want is having a digital, supply limited (etc etc) token with programmable behavior that HAS VALUE from day one. (But right now Bitcoin does not really have "programmable behavior" -- all you can to is transfer it)
If sidechains don't happen I will still be invested in Bitcoin as a diversification especially given the indebtedness of important governments throughout the world. However, I would revise my "end game" estimate downwards by 3-4 orders of magnitude (1000-10000x), esp. if the block size is also not increased. I would expect, best case, Bitcoin to become crypto-"gold". Held but rarely used. Worst case, some highly functional altcoin takes over and BTC's value dwindles to 0.
What happens if one of these side chain alts becomes very successful (for example is supported by the banking system) and begins to draw a large number of bitcoins in circulation into lockdown.
many of us will have a bad time running around gathering up cold storage wallets to transfer to the new SC. possible privacy leaks galore, not to mention risk.
That is the point really - unnecessary risk to bitcoin, to implement 2.0 features. We should be just improving bitcoin instead. The real reason for this idea is the same reason as for everything. Profit for the side chain developers.
Has anyone a convincing argument why side chains are positive for bitcoin, rather than cryptocurrency in general? I think there is a danger we actually all collectively write the prophecy that a bitcoin 2.0 blockchain will come along and emerge in the coming years to dethrone bitcoin. It would be ironic if it was initially backed by bitcoin then destroyed it's creator like frankenstein.
I'm in hurry now but if you have a few minutes to spare just skim through episode 77 and/or 99 of "let's talk bitcoin". Somewhere Adam Back describe an hypothetical scenario where a side chains is used to migrate between from one btc version to another.
Thanks..will do.
As for the bolded statement, this is true of any alt chain, sidechain or not. I don't see how sidechains would effectively assist and benefit pump & dump opportunities. A fool and his money are soon parted, no matter the way.
it could even accelerate the sidescams since it will now be so easy to slide BTC over to that SC. plus, this concept has the blessing of core devs, whom you so trust, right?
you're missing the overall pt. it doesn't matter what the feature is that gives the SC an advantage. first off, the advantage could be gained b/c the Blockstream core devs have preferentially worked on that feature for the SC as opposed to the main chain. then if that SC takes off, as JR said, they might block that feature from being incorporated into the main chain. the problem is that there are too many of them working under the same roof. the scenario where that might happen is if that SC has its own altcoin that they've invested in that's riding along with the transferred BTC.
anything i say has bias as i'm invested in Bitcoin just like most everyone else around here. the difference being, that i'm not the one recommending changes. i invested under one set of assumptions and imo, this changes things potentially.
anything i say has bias as i'm invested in Bitcoin just like most everyone else around here. the difference being, that i'm not the one recommending changes. i invested under one set of assumptions and imo, this changes things potentially.
Everything they are developing is open source. They cannot block implementation of anything. It seems disingenuous to me, considering some of the answers given in the AMA, to suggest the BTC main core devs would implicitly hurt Bitcoin's development in favor of Blockstream's business. Additionally, any indication of unethical behavior by them could certainly lead to them losing their position as BTC main core developer.
They have specifically stated in the AMA they will NOT create their own altcoin or currency.
Also, your concern of financial incentives corrupting their actions is misguided. Do not forget that ALL of them have vested interest into Bitcoin already. They stand to make considerably more money creating sensible SC features that improve the Bitcoin economy.
look, i don't know how old you are, but what we're talking about here is A LOT of money. the whole ethos of Bitcoin is as a trustless currency. that currency depends on it's source code. any changes to that code can change the economic assumptions and those correctly positioned can make LOTS. to have core devs under the employment of a for-profit company is ridiculous. it doesn't make any difference that they've behaved up to this point. look what happened in 2008 in the GFC. tremendous amounts of trust were lost in were supposed to be institutions to protect our form of capitalism. didn't work out when the shit hit the fan did it? are you willing to risk the entire Bitcoin system to have 5 devs who commit to the Bitcoin source while employed by Austin Hill, a hedge fund guy?
What happens if one of these side chain alts becomes very successful (for example is supported by the banking system) and begins to draw a large number of bitcoins in circulation into lockdown. Will bitcoin value suddenly evaporate as all the coins sublime into the new chain in a mad rush? One can imagine some amazing pump and dump opportunities for clever side chain developers to acquire an awful lot of bitcoins through this 'two way peg' mechanism. (Early adopters again wahey!) Or to actually kill bitcoin with if a superior chain emerges.
Any successful SC will benefit the Bitcoin economy and therefore it makes no sense to suggest banking system would get behind a SC in particular.
As for the bolded statement, this is true of any alt chain, sidechain or not. I don't see how sidechains would effectively assist and benefit pump & dump opportunities. A fool and his money are soon parted, no matter the way.
you're missing the overall pt. it doesn't matter what the feature is that gives the SC an advantage. first off, the advantage could be gained b/c the Blockstream core devs have preferentially worked on that feature for the SC as opposed to the main chain. then if that SC takes off, as JR said, they might block that feature from being incorporated into the main chain. the problem is that there are too many of them working under the same roof. the scenario where that might happen is if that SC has its own altcoin that they've invested in that's riding along with the transferred BTC.
anything i say has bias as i'm invested in Bitcoin just like most everyone else around here. the difference being, that i'm not the one recommending changes. i invested under one set of assumptions and imo, this changes things potentially.
anything i say has bias as i'm invested in Bitcoin just like most everyone else around here. the difference being, that i'm not the one recommending changes. i invested under one set of assumptions and imo, this changes things potentially.
Everything they are developing is open source. They cannot block implementation of anything. It seems disingenuous to me, considering some of the answers given in the AMA, to suggest the BTC main core devs would implicitly hurt Bitcoin's development in favor of Blockstream's business. Additionally, any indication of unethical behavior by them could certainly lead to them losing their position as BTC main core developer.
They have specifically stated in the AMA they will NOT create their own altcoin or currency.
Also, your concern of financial incentives corrupting their actions is misguided. Do not forget that ALL of them have vested interest into Bitcoin already. They stand to make considerably more money creating sensible SC features that improve the Bitcoin economy.
how come bitcoin is staying at $400 and not rising?
What happens if one of these side chain alts becomes very successful (for example is supported by the banking system) and begins to draw a large number of bitcoins in circulation into lockdown.
many of us will have a bad time running around gathering up cold storage wallets to transfer to the new SC. possible privacy leaks galore, not to mention risk.
lol, SideChain is backed by bitcoin. SideChain is protocol. SideChain is only temporary. The only way sidechain can outperform Bitcoin is when Bitcoin security is broken and SC's is not.
edit:
And in this case, bitcoin will be death and no matter if there is SC or SC is not.
What happens if one of these side chain alts becomes very successful (for example is supported by the banking system) and begins to draw a large number of bitcoins in circulation into lockdown.
many of us will have a bad time running around gathering up cold storage wallets to transfer to the new SC. possible privacy leaks galore, not to mention risk.
That is the point really - unnecessary risk to bitcoin, to implement 2.0 features. We should be just improving bitcoin instead. The real reason for this idea is the same reason as for everything. Profit for the side chain developers.
Has anyone a convincing argument why side chains are positive for bitcoin, rather than cryptocurrency in general? I think there is a danger we actually all collectively write the prophecy that a bitcoin 2.0 blockchain will come along and emerge in the coming years to dethrone bitcoin. It would be ironic if it was initially backed by bitcoin then destroyed it's creator like frankenstein.
I'm in hurry now but if you have a few minutes to spare just skim through episode 77 and/or 99 of "let's talk bitcoin". Somewhere Adam Back describe an hypothetical scenario where a side chains is used to migrate between from one btc version to another.
trying too hard to attach ill intentions to a group of people that have generally served us well in the past.
I hear alarm bells whenever people start talking like this.The people who communities blindly trust because "they've always served us in the past" are exactly the kind of people who become prime targets for blackmail, extortion, etc.
Do not spin my words around.
Giving the benefit of the doubt to well respected members of the community is NOT blind trust. It is called exactly that, respect.
It is perfectly fine to consider what COULD go wrong. It is another thing to imply conspiration to damage Bitcoin when there is NO signs and incentives of doing so.
What happens if one of these side chain alts becomes very successful (for example is supported by the banking system) and begins to draw a large number of bitcoins in circulation into lockdown.
many of us will have a bad time running around gathering up cold storage wallets to transfer to the new SC. possible privacy leaks galore, not to mention risk.
That is the point really - unnecessary risk to bitcoin, to implement 2.0 features. We should be just improving bitcoin instead. The real reason for this idea is the same reason as for everything. Profit for the side chain developers.
Has anyone a convincing argument why side chains are positive for bitcoin, rather than cryptocurrency in general? I think there is a danger we actually all collectively write the prophecy that a bitcoin 2.0 blockchain will come along and emerge in the coming years to dethrone bitcoin. It would be ironic if it was initially backed by bitcoin then destroyed it's creator like frankenstein.
It does also seem totally counter intuitive to the incredible infrastructure, funding, merchant/user integration/adoption that has built up around bitcoin in recent years to then build entirely chains on top of bitcoin now.
What happens if one of these side chain alts becomes very successful (for example is supported by the banking system) and begins to draw a large number of bitcoins in circulation into lockdown.
many of us will have a bad time running around gathering up cold storage wallets to transfer to the new SC. possible privacy leaks galore, not to mention risk.
Why is this a problem if the code is all open source?
actually, this is very true. for all my ranting, in the end, i think they fail spectacularly. i could be wrong.
but given Bitcoin's future price projections due to its fixed supply and liquidity as a new form of money, why on earth would anyone move BTC to a high risk, low security Sidechain?
not sure where you're going with this.
if the faster tx is made more useful for certain type of transactions, people will be transferring an according amount of BTC they want to use for this purpose from their hot wallet.
if related SC offers faster tx without compromising security why then would the feature not be integrated to BTC core?
your first question seem contradictory with the second. assuming the value proposition of Bitcoin is fine as is right now, why then would "people from all over the world" want to transfer all the BTC from their cold wallet to a faster TX SC.
I generally appreciate your contribution to BTC related matter but I can't shake off this strange feeling of dishonesty that I get from reading some of your comments since yesterday. It seems as if you're trying too hard to attach ill intentions to a group of people that have generally served us well in the past.
if the faster tx is made more useful for certain type of transactions, people will be transferring an according amount of BTC they want to use for this purpose from their hot wallet.
if related SC offers faster tx without compromising security why then would the feature not be integrated to BTC core?
your first question seem contradictory with the second. assuming the value proposition of Bitcoin is fine as is right now, why then would "people from all over the world" want to transfer all the BTC from their cold wallet to a faster TX SC.
I generally appreciate your contribution to BTC related matter but I can't shake off this strange feeling of dishonesty that I get from reading some of your comments since yesterday. It seems as if you're trying too hard to attach ill intentions to a group of people that have generally served us well in the past.
you're missing the overall pt. it doesn't matter what the feature is that gives the SC an advantage. first off, the advantage could be gained b/c the Blockstream core devs have preferentially worked on that feature for the SC as opposed to the main chain. then if that SC takes off, as JR said, they might block that feature from being incorporated into the main chain. the problem is that there are too many of them working under the same roof. the scenario where that might happen is if that SC has its own altcoin that they've invested in that's riding along with the transferred BTC.
anything i say has bias as i'm invested in Bitcoin just like most everyone else around here. the difference being, that i'm not the one recommending changes. i invested under one set of assumptions and imo, this changes things potentially.
Hopefully those will change Bitcoin for the better. The only thing one can do is participate to the process fostering his own priorities in a way to balance those of other involved actors.
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