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Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. - page 966. (Read 2032274 times)

legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 1005
September 10, 2014, 07:39:40 PM
Krugman is now hedging:

Do you think Bitcoin will gain momentum and become a viable currency?

No. I could be wrong, but Bitcoin is harder to use than other forms of electronic payment, and lacks any fundamental source of value (unlike dollars, which can be used to pay taxes). It’s possible that Bitcoin will somehow become self-supporting, but for now my guess is that it’s largely a fad that will collapse one of these days.


http://www.princetonmagazine.com/paul-krugman/

This is the error which is obvious to many here, but not many mainstream economists.

Bitcoin has enormous fundamental value because of its utility. Rapid, global, transfer of monetary value without third-party intervention, is fundamentally of value. The security of the system, through mining, and the cap on total issuance are pillars which makes the technology monetarily viable.

There is a subtlety here: the stored value of Bitcoin derives from its ability to transfer value.

Eventually Krugman will figure this out, but it will be hard to accept as he will still cling onto the inflation-is-good meme.

What gets me about his comments is even in the field of mainstream economics the utility of bitcoin should apparent. Cyperdoc linked to a paper a while ago (couldn't find it) where a FED board member referred to fiat money as a historic "technical invention".

My initial response to this "technical invention" comment was very negative. I thought it was absurd to refer to fiat as a technology. But the more I thought about it the more it started to make sense. Bitcoin people talk about money as a ledger, and if you compare central bank fiat to physical gold, then in many ways it is easier to transact in and does function as a better ledger. Fiat's core failing is there is no limit on that ledger similar to what gold has, but the ability to transact in the "fiat ledger" is much easier than in the "physical gold ledger". From that perspective fiat is superior to gold. I never understood this until reading that "technical invention" comment.

So if mainstream economists see fiat money as a "technical invention" that has more utility over gold by being a ledger that is easier to transact in, then they should be able to see bitcoin as a superior "technical invention" since it has more utility over fiat by being a ledger that is even more easier to transact in (i.e. programmable money).

The fact that mainstream economists don't, makes me believe that either: a) they are ignoramus who don't understand their own field or b) are paid shills.

When it comes to Krugman, I would probably vote "ignoramus".

Btw, I love that word. It always brings to mind "ignorant anus", which in this case, perfectly describes Krugman.

He should really go down the toilet of history, when reality calls. But these flock people slip out of your hands like eels. When they are wrong, they can hide behind each other in turn, saying this was completely unforeseeable. He will probably get his second Sweedish Riksbanks economic price to the memory of Alfred Nobel, after the crisis have flattened civilization. Nobel hated economists, for a reason.
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 1005
September 10, 2014, 07:30:43 PM
All the traits of good money work together to support the three functions of money. It can easily be used for indirect exchange (quick, borderless, no interference), is a good store of value (no government manipulation) and it is also good as a unit of account - this is supported by the traits fungibility and divisibility. The value is not completely stable, but no money is - get over it. If someone wants to count his wealth in bitcoins, he can. Counting in dollars is also possible, but over time you have to qualify each account by time, just as with bitcoins. If someone is using a piece of capital, like a taxi or an excavator, over say 5 years, he absolutely should qualify his accounts by date with the real value, else he would not be able to replace the capital when it is worn out (fooled by inflation, he would take too much out for consumption).

legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
September 10, 2014, 07:22:06 PM
Krugman is now hedging:

Do you think Bitcoin will gain momentum and become a viable currency?

No. I could be wrong, but Bitcoin is harder to use than other forms of electronic payment, and lacks any fundamental source of value (unlike dollars, which can be used to pay taxes). It’s possible that Bitcoin will somehow become self-supporting, but for now my guess is that it’s largely a fad that will collapse one of these days.


http://www.princetonmagazine.com/paul-krugman/

This is the error which is obvious to many here, but not many mainstream economists.

Bitcoin has enormous fundamental value because of its utility. Rapid, global, transfer of monetary value without third-party intervention, is fundamentally of value. The security of the system, through mining, and the cap on total issuance are pillars which makes the technology monetarily viable.

There is a subtlety here: the stored value of Bitcoin derives from its ability to transfer value.

Eventually Krugman will figure this out, but it will be hard to accept as he will still cling onto the inflation-is-good meme.

What gets me about his comments is even in the field of mainstream economics the utility of bitcoin should apparent. Cyperdoc linked to a paper a while ago (couldn't find it) where a FED board member referred to fiat money as a historic "technical invention".

My initial response to this "technical invention" comment was very negative. I thought it was absurd to refer to fiat as a technology. But the more I thought about it the more it started to make sense. Bitcoin people talk about money as a ledger, and if you compare central bank fiat to physical gold, then in many ways it is easier to transact in and does function as a better ledger. Fiat's core failing is there is no limit on that ledger similar to what gold has, but the ability to transact in the "fiat ledger" is much easier than in the "physical gold ledger". From that perspective fiat is superior to gold. I never understood this until reading that "technical invention" comment.

So if mainstream economists see fiat money as a "technical invention" that has more utility over gold by being a ledger that is easier to transact in, then they should be able to see bitcoin as a superior "technical invention" since it has more utility over fiat by being a ledger that is even more easier to transact in (i.e. programmable money).

The fact that mainstream economists don't, makes me believe that either: a) they are ignoramus who don't understand their own field or b) are paid shills.

When it comes to Krugman, I would probably vote "ignoramus".

Btw, I love that word. It always brings to mind "ignorant anus", which in this case, perfectly describes Krugman.
legendary
Activity: 1153
Merit: 1000
September 10, 2014, 07:13:08 PM
Krugman is now hedging:

Do you think Bitcoin will gain momentum and become a viable currency?

No. I could be wrong, but Bitcoin is harder to use than other forms of electronic payment, and lacks any fundamental source of value (unlike dollars, which can be used to pay taxes). It’s possible that Bitcoin will somehow become self-supporting, but for now my guess is that it’s largely a fad that will collapse one of these days.


http://www.princetonmagazine.com/paul-krugman/

This is the error which is obvious to many here, but not many mainstream economists.

Bitcoin has enormous fundamental value because of its utility. Rapid, global, transfer of monetary value without third-party intervention, is fundamentally of value. The security of the system, through mining, and the cap on total issuance are pillars which makes the technology monetarily viable.

There is a subtlety here: the stored value of Bitcoin derives from its ability to transfer value.

Eventually Krugman will figure this out, but it will be hard to accept as he will still cling onto the inflation-is-good meme.

What gets me about his comments is even in the field of mainstream economics the utility of bitcoin should be apparent. Cyperdoc linked to a paper a while ago (couldn't find it) where a FED board member referred to fiat money as a historic "technical invention".

My initial response to this "technical invention" comment was very negative. I thought it was absurd to refer to fiat as a technology. But the more I thought about it the more it started to make sense. Bitcoin people talk about money as a ledger, and if you compare central bank fiat to physical gold, then in many ways it is easier to transact in and does function as a better ledger. Fiat's core failing is there is no limit on that ledger similar to what gold has, but the ability to transact in the "fiat ledger" is much easier than in the "physical gold ledger". From that perspective fiat is superior to gold. I never understood this until reading that "technical invention" comment.

So if mainstream economists see fiat money as a "technical invention" that has more utility over gold by being a ledger that is easier to transact in, then they should be able to see bitcoin as a superior "technical invention" since it has more utility over fiat by being a ledger that is even more easier to transact in (i.e. programmable money).

The fact that mainstream economists don't, makes me believe that either: a) they are ignoramus who don't understand their own field or b) are paid shills.
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 1005
September 10, 2014, 06:27:30 PM
Another commonly used indicator (for early deflation detection), is the Caterpillar company. It expands its profit (and debt to capital ratio), but the sales of machinery is down. This tells me that the company, like most large companies, is transforming from a production company to something like a bank.

http://www.caterpillar.com/en/investors/quarterly-results.html

I would be interested in the actual tonnage of machinery produced, which I suspect is also down, but I am too lazy to look for it now.

thanks for reminding me of them.  i usually follow them too but with what i think are all the stock mkt manipulations, i'm not sure how their stock price is reflective of what actually is going on other than entrenched Fed easing expectations or outright PPT pumping.

volume looks sick as hell and we have a lower high but what else is new considering the overall stock mkt indices looking like shit too:



Revenue from sales of equipment is down. Financials are up. The stock market is only interested in profit per share, and that is ok for stock trading, but if the tonnage of heavy machinery is down, that is deflationary. Their equipment is used in mining, in construction and in agriculture, and they are one of the largest producers.
legendary
Activity: 2002
Merit: 1040
September 10, 2014, 05:21:22 PM
Haha agreed
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
September 10, 2014, 05:19:06 PM
holy shit.  this is big.  

i'm having trouble drinking from the fire hose of good news:

Coinbase Launches Bitcoin Buying and Selling in 13 European Countries

http://www.coindesk.com/coinbase-launches-bitcoin-buying-selling-13-european-countries/

Here's some more to drink up  Grin

http://www.coindesk.com/amagi-metals-ceo-bitcoin-replace-us-dollar/

gulp

that is good news but we need him to change the title to:

Amagi Metals CEO: Bitcoin Will Replace the US Dollar and Gold in My Lifetime
legendary
Activity: 2002
Merit: 1040
September 10, 2014, 05:16:24 PM
holy shit.  this is big. 

i'm having trouble drinking from the fire hose of good news:

Coinbase Launches Bitcoin Buying and Selling in 13 European Countries

http://www.coindesk.com/coinbase-launches-bitcoin-buying-selling-13-european-countries/

Here's some more to drink up  Grin

http://www.coindesk.com/amagi-metals-ceo-bitcoin-replace-us-dollar/
legendary
Activity: 3920
Merit: 2349
Eadem mutata resurgo
September 10, 2014, 05:13:23 PM
WTF is this?

BBC: ISPs Should Assume Heavy VPN Users are Pirates

http://torrentfreak.com/bbc-isps-should-assume-heavy-vpn-users-are-pirates-140908/

.. that is unqualified ignorance, is what it is. Mostly corporate workers connecting to employer servers are biggest users of VPNs.
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
September 10, 2014, 05:12:43 PM
holy shit.  this is big. 

i'm having trouble drinking from the fire hose of good news:

Coinbase Launches Bitcoin Buying and Selling in 13 European Countries

http://www.coindesk.com/coinbase-launches-bitcoin-buying-selling-13-european-countries/
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
September 10, 2014, 05:03:48 PM
from Reddit:

[–]Capt_Roger_Murdock 9 points 4 days ago:

Honestly, I see whatever Apple does in the payments space as largely irrelevant to whether or not Bitcoin will succeed. Bitcoin's real value proposition is not as a payment network that's superior to fiat payment networks. Bitcoin does have certain advantages in that regard, primarily censorship-resistance and the ability to do irreversible transfers. (Whether or not on-blockchain transactions will continue to have "low fees" as the network grows and the block reward shrinks is an open question. And the ability to facilitate "mobile payments" is nothing particularly special.) But where Bitcoin really shines is in the way it combines the reliable scarcity of a commodity like gold (the "store-of-value" aspect of money) with the transactional efficiency of a purely digital medium (the "medium-of-exchange" aspect of money). And so the real comparison is how does bitcoin's payment network compare to the "payment network" for gold (i.e. the process of passing around physical pieces of metal)? And the answer is pretty damn well.


highlight mine.
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
September 10, 2014, 05:00:46 PM
WTF is this?

BBC: ISPs Should Assume Heavy VPN Users are Pirates

http://torrentfreak.com/bbc-isps-should-assume-heavy-vpn-users-are-pirates-140908/
sr. member
Activity: 322
Merit: 250
September 10, 2014, 04:56:04 PM
How many gas stations accept gold as payment? Because in USA and some other places they already are beginning to accept Bitcoins. If everything continues at this rate, you metal holders will get cold before than us.
donator
Activity: 2772
Merit: 1019
September 10, 2014, 04:44:39 PM
It was, see The fifth growth spurt from December 24, 2013 Smiley

I wish people would adopt this terminology because "bubble" now is even used by the people that don't believe one of the peaks in the growth represents a large overvaluation (which is the meaning of the word bubble).

Precisely my point: If falllling or other trolls talk about bubbles, I don't really mind. But it became the de facto standard term even by long-term supporters of Bitcoin, which is odd in my opinion, and maybe it's my Asperger's gland* acting up, but I don't like the abuse of the word 'bubble' that way.


* Yes, I know. Doesn't exist.

I'm guilty of using the dreaded term. In my defense: at some point I just accepted the term to be used differently in bitcoin land.

Will try to use "growth spurt" (kind of a tongue-breaker, ain't it?) from now on.
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
September 10, 2014, 04:37:59 PM
Krugman is now hedging:

Do you think Bitcoin will gain momentum and become a viable currency?

No. I could be wrong, but Bitcoin is harder to use than other forms of electronic payment, and lacks any fundamental source of value (unlike dollars, which can be used to pay taxes). It’s possible that Bitcoin will somehow become self-supporting, but for now my guess is that it’s largely a fad that will collapse one of these days.


http://www.princetonmagazine.com/paul-krugman/

This is the error which is obvious to many here, but not many mainstream economists.

Bitcoin has enormous fundamental value because of its utility. Rapid, global, transfer of monetary value without third-party intervention, is fundamentally of value. The security of the system, through mining, and the cap on total issuance are pillars which makes the technology monetarily viable.

There is a subtlety here: the stored value of Bitcoin derives from its ability to transfer value.

Eventually Krugman will figure this out, but it will be hard to accept as he will still cling onto the inflation-is-good meme.

Krugman needs to read more John Nash ... money falls into the subset of Game Theoretic studies "games with transferable utility"

http://sites.stat.psu.edu/~babu/nash/money.pdf

... to understand how bitcoin derives value purely from utility.

hot damn marcus!  great find!  

i had no idea Nash was an Austrian.  this is must reading for all Bitcoiners and i find it very ironic given my independent contention a coupla months back on the Pure Strategy Nash Equilibrium and its application to mining.

excellent!

edit: i'm gonna link your post to Twitter...
legendary
Activity: 1470
Merit: 1007
September 10, 2014, 04:27:32 PM
The cheapest Android phone can sufficiently operate a Bitcoin wallet, as long as it has a camera. Apple Pay will be on the newest devices only and which third world bum has a credit card (compared to each first world bum  Cool ).

the best chance ApplePay has is in the US as it controls 40% of smartphones sold here.  but you're right, worldwide, Bitcoin + Android should still win.  and, as Apple continues to arguably lose US marketshare to Android, Bitcoin + Android should win here too long term as the fees involved with cc tx's hasn't changed.  in fact, in Oct 2015, liability for stolen cc's presented and accepted at merchant stores shifts to the merchant away from the banks and payment processors.


I don't like viewing bitcoin as primarily a payments-tech product. I feel the conversation has shifted largely to how bitcoin excels at executing online payments, which is true, and which I've myself pointed out to skeptics for a long time. The reality, though, is that the core proposition is control of your own money, an open ecosystem, and a mathematically known money supply (as we all appreciate). It just so happens that bitcoin is currently superior to virtually all payment networks as well, but that probably won't be the case forever. Legacy payments will probably get much better (more secure, faster, cheaper) over time, and then it should be clear that bitcoin's real distinction lies in the monetary characteristics. Perhaps ApplePay will re-shift the conversation.



I think it is important to highlight both points, Bitcoin as a non-governed (and extremely secure) transfer mechanism, and the "monetary characteristics" you mention. Keep in mind that not everybody is sold on the superiority of fixed supply, or at least, not enthusiastic enough about it alone to become a supporter - but the self-determination of your own finances aspect might be what makes him or her a supporter.  I know I belong to that group.
legendary
Activity: 2338
Merit: 2106
September 10, 2014, 04:16:25 PM
Krugman is now hedging:

Do you think Bitcoin will gain momentum and become a viable currency?

No. I could be wrong, but Bitcoin is harder to use than other forms of electronic payment, and lacks any fundamental source of value (unlike dollars, which can be used to pay taxes). It’s possible that Bitcoin will somehow become self-supporting, but for now my guess is that it’s largely a fad that will collapse one of these days.


http://www.princetonmagazine.com/paul-krugman/

This is the error which is obvious to many here, but not many mainstream economists.

Bitcoin has enormous fundamental value because of its utility. Rapid, global, transfer of monetary value without third-party intervention, is fundamentally of value. The security of the system, through mining, and the cap on total issuance are pillars which makes the technology monetarily viable.

There is a subtlety here: the stored value of Bitcoin derives from its ability to transfer value.

Eventually Krugman will figure this out, but it will be hard to accept as he will still cling onto the inflation-is-good meme.

I think Erik Voorhees' open letter to Peter Schiff on this subject is very good.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1rxmk3/my_open_letter_to_peter_schiff_followup_from_the


nice one from erik. needed that, thx  Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
legendary
Activity: 3920
Merit: 2349
Eadem mutata resurgo
September 10, 2014, 04:03:57 PM
Krugman is now hedging:

Do you think Bitcoin will gain momentum and become a viable currency?

No. I could be wrong, but Bitcoin is harder to use than other forms of electronic payment, and lacks any fundamental source of value (unlike dollars, which can be used to pay taxes). It’s possible that Bitcoin will somehow become self-supporting, but for now my guess is that it’s largely a fad that will collapse one of these days.


http://www.princetonmagazine.com/paul-krugman/

This is the error which is obvious to many here, but not many mainstream economists.

Bitcoin has enormous fundamental value because of its utility. Rapid, global, transfer of monetary value without third-party intervention, is fundamentally of value. The security of the system, through mining, and the cap on total issuance are pillars which makes the technology monetarily viable.

There is a subtlety here: the stored value of Bitcoin derives from its ability to transfer value.

Eventually Krugman will figure this out, but it will be hard to accept as he will still cling onto the inflation-is-good meme.

Krugman needs to read more John Nash ... money falls into the subset of Game Theoretic studies "games with transferable utility"

http://sites.stat.psu.edu/~babu/nash/money.pdf

... to understand how bitcoin derives value purely from utility.
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
September 10, 2014, 03:47:05 PM
Another commonly used indicator (for early deflation detection), is the Caterpillar company. It expands its profit (and debt to capital ratio), but the sales of machinery is down. This tells me that the company, like most large companies, is transforming from a production company to something like a bank.

http://www.caterpillar.com/en/investors/quarterly-results.html

I would be interested in the actual tonnage of machinery produced, which I suspect is also down, but I am too lazy to look for it now.

thanks for reminding me of them.  i usually follow them too but with what i think are all the stock mkt manipulations, i'm not sure how their stock price is reflective of what actually is going on other than entrenched Fed easing expectations or outright PPT pumping.

volume looks sick as hell and we have a lower high but what else is new considering the overall stock mkt indices looking like shit too:

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