Topic: Goose20 outstanding Loan - page 3. (Read 1071 times)

No it is not. You complain of rising BTC costs and the interest you AGREED to pay as a reason not to pay up, but that is not the lenders fault. He could have sold that BTC he loaned you for a nice profit now, you want him to lose the BTC?  How is the lender wrong here? You are in the wrong having not followed the loan agreement. You are not new to BTC by a long shot but failed to protect yourself against volatility.
So you basically want him to forgive the loan and you skate off free and clear?  Where is the reasoning behind this stance?
Instead of playing a blame/excuse game, why not get with the lender and work out an agreement to solve the only issue: the loan agreement.

KWH,

Firstly, I see that you are genuinely now trying to help out – so thank you for that.

But come on, what’s with the initial heavy-handedness and such one sided position you are taking?

I see you leave people a lot of red trust with the comment  ‘outstanding loan to zazarb’.  Although outstanding loan does not equate to dishonesty/scamming, so it would be better if the comments left by you were more something like ‘user has gone dark while still having an outstanding loan’. Are you officially zazarbs proxy DT or are you just constantly called on by him in the background.

I know you do good in this community and I hope you are acting from the perspective of making this place better, but you are wrong in this matter between zazarb and I. He is abusing the scam accusation section for this thread and leaving (and getting people to leave me) red feedback as there is NO scamming going on here. There is NO dishonesty here.

There are dozens of PM’s between zazarb and I from April 2017 to now – everything has ALWAYS been communicated. And I’ve continued to make payments up until Christmas because of Christmas time and the very high price of btc. Only now that the btc price is dropping fast that he decides to make this public nd accuse me of being a scammer - WTF. He has only posted a small portion of all our PM’s.

You state “You are talking about things (BTC skyrocketing) that were not in the original agreement. This has no bearing on the loan repayment.” Well of course it does. BTC went up 10x – 20x so I could no longer afford the payments – that definitely has a bearing.

You state “The lender did not make BTC prices soar”. Well neither did I as the borrower.

You state “You should have nailed the terms to USD or a certain payback amount down but you did not.” Well neither did zazarb.

You write “goose20, you know very well how volatile BTC can be, you should have set better terms for the loan. You agreed to the terms and got caught in the inflated BTC price. This is your responsibility, you need to fulfill the terms you agreed to. It does not matter how much you have already paid or will pay, nor how much you gained or lost, what matters are the terms you agreed to. I would strongly suggest you make this right as soon as possible.”

What a one-sided view. You could just have easily said something like:
Zazarb, you know very well how volatile BTC can be, you should have set better terms for the loan. You agreed to not take collateral from goose20 because of his high reputation and because you had so many profitable and positive dealings with him. He cannot currently fulfil the terms agreed to because of the massive increase in btc price, not because he is scamming you or because he is dishonest. You should remove this thread from scam accusations section as it is not a scam. You should change your feedback from negative to neutral if you want the public to know there is an outstanding loan. Goose20 is not untrustworthy and you know that – he has communicated with you and kept making payments for months to come good on your agreement.

 

KWH, so let us break this down:

Zazarb’s behaviour =

Long-term member of the forum.

Many positive trades, but also quite a few feedbacks in red.

Provided a no-collateral loan to a long-established client/customer.

The most recent loan was provided in April 2017 with a due date of May 2017. Then the btc price started to spike and kept up its meteoric rise to the point the customer could not afford to make payment. Everything was always communicated from the customer via PM.

Price of BTC starts to fall, the customer still cannot payment – so he goes public.

Starts a Scam Accusation and begins the bullying process despite no dishonesty or scamming being part of the matter.

On this loan he is down currently.

On all business with goose20 he is up.

On all business in his lending thread he is up.

Charges up to 365% interest (sickly high) on loans despite holding at times over 120% collateral (very minimal risk).

States he provides loans not as a business but as a service to this community.

 

Goose20’s behaviour =

Long-term member of the forum.

Over 100 positive trades all with exceptional feedback.

Despite being on DT for a long time (was on ms.escrow list), I only left red tag once - to someone who truly scammed this community. I did not use the DT position to be part of the forum police.

Went about my business with no drama and complete honesty.

Requested numerous no collateral loans – and received many no collateral loans from several members, not just zazarb.  All paid back with interest and with no issues.

The most recent loan was taken out in April 2017 with a due date of May 2017. Then the btc price started to spike and kept up its meteoric rise to the point I could not afford to make payment. Everything was always communicated to zazarb.

 

KWH, I respect you as I’ve seen you on this forum a million times over the last 5 years. But I must state again, the stance you have taken is wrong in this matter between zazarb and I. I do not understand how you could be taking such a one-sided view, at all.


Cheers

You are talking about things (BTC skyrocketing) that were not in the original agreement. This has no bearing on the loan repayment.
The lender did not make BTC prices soar and is it fair to let someone break the loan agreement? You should have nailed the terms to USD or a certain payback amount down but you did not.
I am asking Zazarb to try to make a settlement on this overdue loan and get it repaid to his satisfaction and hopefully something you can repay in a lump sum and put this behind you both.

To everyone, who lazy to click reference link in OP,
here is original agreement:

And here message from goose20, after he made last payment on 19 Oct.2017 and self estimated how much he owe.

Was the loan taken in terms of USD? If the loan mentioned USD then repayment should be considered in USD but if not then no matter what the Price of BTC goes, it touches ATH or ATL you need to pay in exact BTC amount.

BTW how much is left over, if the amount is reasonable then i will contribute as i believe you are not on stretch of being called a scammer.

Moreover this thread should be in reputation section.

I disagree. You choose to come to this thread and contribute. But simply stating 'fix it' without any suggestion as to realistically how is unhelpful.

I have communicated at every turn with zazarb.
I took out a equiv $750 loan with an expectation repayment be ~$780. Now it ends up over $5k. Last month was over $10k. I cannot make btc, i can only buy it with $$.

Its easy to say fix it, but is that really fair and reasonable in such extraordinary circumstances...

Cheers

You are asking questions that do not relate to this thread. You are in default, you are at fault and need to complete the loan terms you agreed to.
As for an outright scam, I don't believe it is at this time but with the loan long overdue what else is the OP supposed to do?
Your left feedback is in error and I strongly suggest you remove it as it looks completely retaliatory.
This is a pretty easy fix for both, get together and work on that.

Hi KWH,

Thank you for contributing.
I get what you are saying, but how is this a scam or scam attempt? I am not saying i have repaid in full, i am simply saying this has nothing to do with scamming or being dishonest.

I am unable to continue to make the high repayments. What would you suggest? What would you do if you were in my situation?

I stand by my feedback as I believe neutral feedback is more appropriate from zazarb to me with a proper and full explanation of the facts and context. I have not, and never have, set out to scam anybody ever.

Cheers

goose20, you know very well how volatile BTC can be, you should have set better terms for the loan. You agreed to the terms and got caught in the inflated BTC price. This is your responsibility, you need to fulfill the terms you agreed to.
It does not matter how much you have already paid or will pay, nor how much you gained or lost, what matters are the terms you agreed to.
I would strongly suggest you make this right as soon as possible.
Good luck to both on a quick resolution.

As for the retaliation feedback I would suggest removing it.

Sad that you do not realize, that you are ruining your reputation. Nonsense repeated many times, not becomes true...
Pathetic thing, that you took BTC loan to marginal trade in poloniex , and traded between btc and altcoins , nothing do with btc price in fiat...

Edit:
By the way ,
 leaving such feedback to me  you abusing trust system, my feedback with reference to this topic, where everything is explained.

I believe that Red taging necessary, because people get false imagination that  can trust  to you your money, but that's not true.

Hi magneto,

Thanks for your 2 cents.

Just to clarify, there were no missed repayments. Things were always communicated with zazarb and initially things were agreed, as in agreed that I'd make the interest payment and roll over the principal. It was only months later and after btc price spiked substantially that it became impossible for me to keep making payments. Remember btc was up 10x - 20x last year. But at every time, i communicated things with zazarb.

My stance is i accept i haven't repaid in full. But not because of scammy or dishonesty, but by the 10x increase.

If you were in my position, after repaying 0.455btc and $1830 and after repaying 5.93btc of only 5.745btc received, would you pay another $3k - $10k towards an original  $750 loan?  If you would, i respect your virtue and romanticism that 1btc is 1btc. But for mine, the reality is everything to do with btc is referred back to fiat. We are no where near a point where things are referenced in btc alone.

I think it fair that if someone takes the time to post in this thread, no matter which way the thinking, that they state what they would do in my situation - considering the full context of things. I truly believe any fair and reasonable person would see that this is not a scam attempt. Zazarb is ahead overall in all our deals over the past 2-3 years. He knows me as an honest person which is why he lent me that much btc with no collateral. So did several other lenders - my feedback and reputation is solid.

Cheers

Just my 2 cents:

The original agreement was that you owed zazarb in bitcoin value and nowhere does it say that fiat was going to be involved, or the fact that repayment amount can be reduced due to the fact that fiat repayment amounts will be used if bitcoin goes up too much.

Goose20 fails repayments on time many many times, whilst I think that it's trustworthy behaviour that he had the audacity to respond to this scam accusation and not run away, you're still at fault here at least in my opinion. Especially if all this was as a result of a late repayment to begin with on your part.

If zazarb just held his bitcoin, he would have made a lot more than what he's gotten for you atm. So right now, he is definitely taking a loss.

Consider this - if you take out a loan from a lender, and you're required by the lender to repay more than you originally agreed with because bitcoin went down, even though it says clearly in the contract that you would pay x amount of bitcoins, would you be happy?

Hi MadZ,

Thanks for your input. What you say is fair. But please do not misunderstand what my position is.

Keep in mind that i have had over a dozen successful deals with zazarb, during which time the price moved up and down - there was never an issue of repayment.

However the reality that has led us here is the 10x increase in price. And whether it is reasonable and practical for someone to pay $5,000 - $10,000 for a $750 loan that was expected to be a ~$780 repayment. And whether non-repayment in full under such circumstances is a scam attempt.

It is unfortunate circumstances yes, but not a scam. I can understand zazarb's frustration here, but he also has to understand mine. How many people in the world would have continued to repay, even pay $1800, let alone hand over $5k and more. Any reasonable person can see what is fair here.

I respect your opinion. Hopefully you've understood the situation correctly. And if you truly think if you were in my position you'd hand over $5k+, then so be it. But i disagree with you and your negative feedback. I think you are taking a simplistic view and not paying any regard to the bigger picture.

This issue has come up before on the forum for others when the price first jumped over the $1000 mark. There were people of course on both sides. It's a similar issue before the Mt Gox bankruptcy trustee - he froze the debt to the $$ value at time of default, not btc amount. Using that same application here and I've overpaid zazarb. Things are as they are and its frustrating for us both.

It is complicated. Not simple. Definitely not a scam from my end. That is my position here.

Cheers

Based on your logic, zazarb should be entitled to ask you for more in re-payment whenever the price of BTC drops following the initial loan. After all, he lent you a certain value in USD and is getting a lower value in USD returned to him. It doesn't look like you were complaining when that was the case though. If you wanted a loan denominated in USD or another fiat currency, you should have added that to the terms. You knew Bitcoin was volatile, yet deliberately avoided repayment in the hope that the price would drop. It is now almost an entire year after you first entered into this agreement and you still haven't even repaid the principle. Zazarb has been more than lenient by waiting until now to publicly call you out on this. I will remove my feedback once this issue has been resolved to the lender's satisfaction.

Why are you trying to mislead others, with such absurd excuses and explanations. Because the creation of such nonsense can be accessed to absurdity, let say you took loan of 50btc  from me  2011(just $50usd )
and repaid with interest 55btc($55usd) so nowadays you can take loan 5btc  and not repay, because according you I am in profit!!!(try ask Theymos maybe he agree to sell VIP rank for $50usd, because most user bought it for such usd equivalent)
I suggest again look at our agreement, there is not mentioned anywhere fiat equivalent. Even in you last message with partial repayment (19th Oct) you clear stated that owe me 0.4BTC and after that I did not get any more btc from you:

That's the feeling that I'm not talking to the real goose20 Because real one understand risk and responsibility:

-- RESERVED  (i will respond when i review this) --

In the meantime, my response is:

I am not a scammer. I have not scammed zazarb. Zazarb  opening this as a scam accusation is ridiculous.

Quick facts are:
- in April 2017, i borrowed 0.62btc with a repayment of 0.65btc approx 1 month later. In $$ terms, that equated to loan of $750 with expected repayment of $780.
- This loan was after many dealings and previous loans with zazarb, all which went smoothly and were repaid with interest. Between 10 to 20 deals in all.
- But then the price of BTC started to rise quickly and a lot.
As the price continued to rise, i made 7 monthly part repayments total of 0.455Btc / $1830.
- By November and December the price was up 10x to 20x and it was impossible to keep paying.

This issue is due to the massive increase in BTC price and not my honesty. I have well over 100 successful trades on this forum with a very good record.

Summary
Zazarb = despite the big picture and overall context of the circumstances, i need to keep paying, even though it is many thousands of $$$"s now.
Goose20 = i continued to keep paying month after month, even as  BTC kept rising but it became unfair, unreasonable and unrealistic to continue due to massive volatility and price surge of Btc. The last loan i repaid 0.455btc/ $1830 of the 0.62btc/$750 loan. And of the previous 10 loans including this one, i received a total of 5.745btc from zazarb and paid him 5.930btc. He is at least +.185btc.

Zazarb has said his loaning is not done as a  business but rather as a service to this community. He is well in front in his dealings with me. I can not of anticipated such a huge spike in price.

There are a lot more PMs between myself and zazarb about this issue which zazarb has not posted here. I have asked his permission, and he has approved, that i may post these here to provide a fuller and more proper context. State a fact without proper context is misleading imo.

Cheers
goose20





Asked second extension (interest paid https://blockchain.info/tx/2fbb17a701a6ae05745bc4ba57b4d6b4bcee98c0f8317b7f70ae52c5eabaa0a2)


Asked third extension (paid interest https://blockchain.info/tx/463c49bf4913c18a39d2fd4cf45a1f3c61fcfb96b44d4f395ded990b5ca8b7ad)


Missed repayment on 27th July. I asked repay until hard fork.


here he paid interest for two month and small amount of principle


next repayment


Last one payment:

So last payment was on 19th Oct. remaining amount to repay 0.4BTC+ at least 0.06BTC interest for 3 month.

Additional Notes: I advise you to not deal with this user until this dispute is resolved.