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Topic: Got me a Kill-a-watt and some 7970's..... - page 2. (Read 4874 times)

mrb
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 1028
I disagree for exactly the same reasons.

2.62 Mh/J is meaningless as it's not comparing like-for-like, you're adding in the unknown variable of the system, which will be vastly different (as you noted) system to system.

3.74 Mh/J is meaningful, as other people, who wish to compare their values, can use this number by factoring out their own baseline system power.

Your argument is invalid because 3.74 Mh/J is also influenced by unknown variables, such as the efficiency of power supplies which varies with load: http://www.anandtech.com/show/2624/3

Here is a thought experiment: yochdog's load/idle power draw is 512/154 Watt. He replaces his power supply with one that is just as efficient at high loads, but more efficient at low loads, changing his measuremnts to 512/130 Watt. Suddenly his mining efficiency went down from 1340/(512-154) = 3.74 Mh/J to 1340/(512-130) = 3.51 Mh/J ! Explain to me why using a formula in which efficiency becomes worse when using better hardware components is useful?

Of course, if everybody had clamp meters, the ultimate way to measure the efficiency of a card would be to measure current at the PCIe power connectors and PCIe slot, like I demonstrated a while ago: http://blog.zorinaq.com/?e=42
hero member
Activity: 742
Merit: 500
Let me correct:

  • 3.74 Mh/J is meaningless to us, because it is inflated by your inefficient baseline idle power of 150W (perhaps you have a high-power CPU, multiple hardware components not necessary for mining, or your PSU's efficiency sharply drops at low loads, or you are running a graphics-intensive Windows Aero desktop, etc)
  • 2.62 Mh/J is meaningful.


I disagree for exactly the same reasons.

2.62 Mh/J is meaningless as it's not comparing like-for-like, you're adding in the unknown variable of the system, which will be vastly different (as you noted) system to system.

3.74 Mh/J is meaningful, as other people, who wish to compare their values, can use this number by factoring out their own baseline system power.

I think both are useful.

One is nice for comparing cards, the other is nice for comparing systems.

I wanted to compare my 1.8GH rig to this 7970 rig, so overall power consumption was what I wanted.

Now if I wanted to look into swapping my 5970s for 7970s, then the per card consumption is more useful.
legendary
Activity: 1795
Merit: 1208
This is not OK.
Let me correct:

  • 3.74 Mh/J is meaningless to us, because it is inflated by your inefficient baseline idle power of 150W (perhaps you have a high-power CPU, multiple hardware components not necessary for mining, or your PSU's efficiency sharply drops at low loads, or you are running a graphics-intensive Windows Aero desktop, etc)
  • 2.62 Mh/J is meaningful.


I disagree for exactly the same reasons.

2.62 Mh/J is meaningless as it's not comparing like-for-like, you're adding in the unknown variable of the system, which will be vastly different (as you noted) system to system.

3.74 Mh/J is meaningful, as other people, who wish to compare their values, can use this number by factoring out their own baseline system power.
mrb
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 1028
Let me correct:

  • 3.74 Mh/J is meaningless to us, because it is inflated by your inefficient baseline idle power of 150W (perhaps you have a high-power CPU, or your PSU's efficiency sharply drops at low loads, or you are running a graphics-intensive Windows Aero desktop, etc)
  • 2.62 Mh/J is meaningful.
legendary
Activity: 2044
Merit: 1000
All I am trying to measure is the additional power consumption of the cards.  This is a machine that is always on, and has been always on for the last 3 years.  Thus, the idle power consumption is the baseline, as it would be consuming that regardless.  Determining the incremental energy consumption is all I am concerned about, and now have a good approximation of that number.

Now if I was building a dedicated mining rig from the ground up, of course the over-all system wattage would be the important number.

And this is precisely my point! This makes your numbers meaningful only to you, and meaningless to all of us on the forum (because most people here favor more efficient systems -- and a dedicated 2 x 7970 miner idles at 90W or so). You should have disclosed your unusually high baseline idle load in your first post.


Meaningless?  Are you serious?  Being able to compare apples to apples the power consumption of an overvlocked/undervolted 7970 to a 5970, ot 5870, or any other number of cards is meaningless?  What about those with existing farm of dedicated miners?  Might they find some meaning in stand-alone efficiency of cards?  Might they find some meaningful cost savings if they can upgrade to more efficieint GPU's?   

Fail on so many levels. 
mrb
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 1028
All I am trying to measure is the additional power consumption of the cards.  This is a machine that is always on, and has been always on for the last 3 years.  Thus, the idle power consumption is the baseline, as it would be consuming that regardless.  Determining the incremental energy consumption is all I am concerned about, and now have a good approximation of that number.

Now if I was building a dedicated mining rig from the ground up, of course the over-all system wattage would be the important number.

And this is precisely my point! This makes your numbers meaningful only to you, and meaningless to all of us on the forum (because most people here favor more efficient systems -- and a dedicated 2 x 7970 miner idles at 90W or so). You should have disclosed your unusually high baseline idle load in your first post.
hero member
Activity: 742
Merit: 500
So its (542 * 3 + 160 + 330) / 1986 = 1.065 $/MHs

Not really.  Depends on the settings.
With 1180/800, 1.174V the same system generates 2155 MH/s
but it consumes 875W
Well whatever you run the system 24/7 at is what matters.  What do you run it at?
hero member
Activity: 742
Merit: 500
I just run the following with my 3x7970 sapphires:

1125/685 , 1.118V

I get 1986 MH/s and it pulls 760W at the plug. System is running for about 3 hours, but it stabilized @760W after
first 15 minutes.

Similar to your 2.62 MH/W
What is your total $/MH (excluding electricity)?  3 sapphires + mobo, etc.

Huh? 1 sapphire was $542, GD70 was $160, PSU was $330
It cost me about $2 to mine 1 BTC.  1.4 BTC/day.  It will take forever (if ever) to get my money back (at current BTC rates)
Maybe in 500 days I'll break even.
That's what I was wondering. $2 to mine 1 BTC is at current difficulty with your electricity rates.  I was more curious about the hashes as that is less specific to time and place.

So its (542 * 3 + 160 + 330) / 1986 = 1.065 $/MHs
hero member
Activity: 742
Merit: 500
I just run the following with my 3x7970 sapphires:

1125/685 , 1.118V

I get 1986 MH/s and it pulls 760W at the plug. System is running for about 3 hours, but it stabilized @760W after
first 15 minutes.

Similar to your 2.62 MH/W
What is your total $/MH (excluding electricity)?  3 sapphires + mobo, etc.
sr. member
Activity: 278
Merit: 250
Another big factor people seem to ignore is how much power is drawn once the system has been mining for a while.   I get the sense most fire up their miner, wait maybe a minute, then check the kill a watt.  You really need to let the miner go for an hour or more to see the full effect.

My rigs use almost 10% more juice after getting up to temp (running stable for days) vs the first several minutes or even first hour of mining.

I also watch the amps more than the watts, since I don't want breakers tripping on unattended miners.   Our voltage tends to sag to below 110 during the day from a high of 118-120 each night.
legendary
Activity: 2044
Merit: 1000
Alright, I went and re-measured the numbers.  I think what happened was I screwed up the idle wattage the first time around.  Here are the correct numbers:

System idle:  154
Mining with above settings:  512
Hash rate:  1340 MH/s

Soooo, I am getting 3.74 MH/watt.

No. It is nonsense to compute the efficiency as 1340/(512-154) = 3.74 Mh/J...
For example, if the cards' idle power consumption would be worse and would be making the machine idle at 350 Watt, would you conclude it would raise efficiency to 1340/(512-350) = 8.27 Mh/J ? Of course not!

You are in fact getting 1340/512 = 2.62 Mh/J which is in line with what I have measured on my own HD 7970 machines.

All I am trying to measure is the additional power consumption of the cards.  This is a machine that is always on, and has been always on for the last 3 years.  Thus, the idle power consumption is the baseline, as it would be consuming that regardless.  Determining the incremental energy consumption is all I am concerned about, and now have a good approximation of that number.

Now if I was building a dedicated mining rig from the ground up, of course the over-all system wattage would be the important number.  But in this case I am not dealing with a dedicated miner, thus it is not nonsense.
member
Activity: 121
Merit: 10
No. It is nonsense to compute the efficiency as 1340/(512-154) = 3.74 Mh/J...
For example, if the cards' idle power consumption would be worse and would be making the machine idle at 350 Watt, would you conclude it would raise efficiency to 1340/(512-350) = 8.27 Mh/J ? Of course not!

You are in fact getting 1340/512 = 2.62 Mh/J which is in line with what I have measured on my own HD 7970 machines.

It's not exactly nonsense, if he is trying to measure the efficiency of his cards as opposed to the efficiency of his entire system.  Now sure, to be perfectly fair he should remove the idle power usage of the video cards before subtracting the idle from load, but 7970 use very very little power in "long idle", less than 3W per card typically.

Also, he can hypothetically run more video cards on this system without impacting the idle power usage (other than the minor draw of an idle video card).  It's good to know the per-card efficiency to know if it would be worth doing so.

Indeed, the card's efficiency is also an interesting number, although a bit difficult to tell from a one measurement of idle/mining. The card's idle consumption may vary depending on how well the idle-features are working. The second card is probably in that negligible "long idle" state, but the primary may be consuming quite a bit if he is for example using two monitors or possibly overclocking with AB unofficial overclocking. At least that's the case for me, my 7970 fails to drop to 0.85V & 300/150 MHz often.

I suppose a better way to find out a card's efficiency in this case would be to compare the power draw when mining with primary card to the power draw when mining with both of them, assuming long idle is working well.

But yes, it's an interesting number, in fact probably more interesting to others than the efficiency of a quite power-hungry system. A dedicated mining rig with low power CPU and such with 4-6 7970s will make the cards' consumption dominant, instead of the system's consumption.
sr. member
Activity: 348
Merit: 250
No. It is nonsense to compute the efficiency as 1340/(512-154) = 3.74 Mh/J...
For example, if the cards' idle power consumption would be worse and would be making the machine idle at 350 Watt, would you conclude it would raise efficiency to 1340/(512-350) = 8.27 Mh/J ? Of course not!

You are in fact getting 1340/512 = 2.62 Mh/J which is in line with what I have measured on my own HD 7970 machines.

It's not exactly nonsense, if he is trying to measure the efficiency of his cards as opposed to the efficiency of his entire system.  Now sure, to be perfectly fair he should remove the idle power usage of the video cards before subtracting the idle from load, but 7970 use very very little power in "long idle", less than 3W per card typically.

Also, he can hypothetically run more video cards on this system without impacting the idle power usage (other than the minor draw of an idle video card).  It's good to know the per-card efficiency to know if it would be worth doing so.
mrb
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 1028
Alright, I went and re-measured the numbers.  I think what happened was I screwed up the idle wattage the first time around.  Here are the correct numbers:

System idle:  154
Mining with above settings:  512
Hash rate:  1340 MH/s

Soooo, I am getting 3.74 MH/watt.

No. It is nonsense to compute the efficiency as 1340/(512-154) = 3.74 Mh/J...
For example, if the cards' idle power consumption would be worse and would be making the machine idle at 350 Watt, would you conclude it would raise efficiency to 1340/(512-350) = 8.27 Mh/J ? Of course not!

You are in fact getting 1340/512 = 2.62 Mh/J which is in line with what I have measured on my own HD 7970 machines.
legendary
Activity: 1400
Merit: 1000
I owe my soul to the Bitcoin code...
Even at close to 4Mh/W it is real impressive.  Smiley  Nice
full member
Activity: 131
Merit: 100
I think I can get close to 4.00 MH/watt, but the system would have to be a dedicated miner.  Using other applications causes instability at lower voltages than the 1.08,

so like 180 watts a card. not bad.
legendary
Activity: 2044
Merit: 1000
I think I can get close to 4.00 MH/watt, but the system would have to be a dedicated miner.  Using other applications causes instability at lower voltages than the 1.08,
legendary
Activity: 2044
Merit: 1000
Something is most definitely wrong with your meter or your math, my friend.  At that clock/voltage, you should be drawing a bit over 200 watts per card (at the wall).  I have three 7970 rigs and they all draw more power at a lower core clock, lower voltage, and a lower memory clock.  To top it off, they don't have hard drives either.  Hell, my water cooled 7970 rig would draw more power than this.  In fact...  Cheesy

I tried to get as close to that clock/voltage as possible (my cards aren't stable at that core/voltage combo).  With your same settings but 25 Mhz lower on the core clock, I've got 512 Watts total system power consumption with 2 cards.  Granted, this is on a machine with an i7 930, but this measurement was done with no CPU overclocking.  All components (including the GPUs) are water cooled.

Even if you're just trying to calculate the power draw of the GPUs themselves, your measurement is off somewhere.  My pump draws 9 watts.  My idle CPU, board, SSD, and a few power controlled fans aren't going to suck up 212 watts.

hmmmm, I will slap the Killawatt back on it and re-check the readings.

Perhaps I screwed something up, but I thought I was right on. 


*sigh*......

Alright, I went and re-measured the numbers.  I think what happened was I screwed up the idle wattage the first time around.  Here are the correct numbers:

System idle:  154
Mining with above settings:  512
Hash rate:  1340 MH/s

Soooo, I am getting 3.74 MH/watt.

I am bummed I was not getting what I thought....but still thrilled to shave subsantial power usage.  
hero member
Activity: 642
Merit: 500
Perhaps I screwed something up, but I thought I was right on.

Actually, I'm starting to wonder myself now.  Looking at the "VDDC In" stat in GPU-Z is showing a value closer to what you measured.  Because of AC/DC conversion in the PSU, we can tack on some extra Watts due to lost efficiency.

I have a 4x FC HBA in this machine right now and I forgot about it because I was only using it to test something the other day...  Apparently this thing is using a fairly absurd amount of power?  That aside, it doesn't really explain what's going on with my dedicated rig.

More testing.  BRB.  Cheesy
legendary
Activity: 2044
Merit: 1000
Something is most definitely wrong with your meter or your math, my friend.  At that clock/voltage, you should be drawing a bit over 200 watts per card (at the wall).  I have three 7970 rigs and they all draw more power at a lower core clock, lower voltage, and a lower memory clock.  To top it off, they don't have hard drives either.  Hell, my water cooled 7970 rig would draw more power than this.  In fact...  Cheesy

I tried to get as close to that clock/voltage as possible (my cards aren't stable at that core/voltage combo).  With your same settings but 25 Mhz lower on the core clock, I've got 512 Watts total system power consumption with 2 cards.  Granted, this is on a machine with an i7 930, but this measurement was done with no CPU overclocking.  All components (including the GPUs) are water cooled.

Even if you're just trying to calculate the power draw of the GPUs themselves, your measurement is off somewhere.  My pump draws 9 watts.  My idle CPU, board, SSD, and a few power controlled fans aren't going to suck up 212 watts.

hmmmm, I will slap the Killawatt back on it and re-check the readings.

Perhaps I screwed something up, but I thought I was right on. 
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