Governments will never jump in... | Bitcointalksearch.org

Realpra

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Quote from: ElectricMucus on August 24, 2012, 02:48:01 PM

Quote from: Realpra on August 24, 2012, 02:32:53 PM

Quote from: Domrada on August 23, 2012, 11:46:33 PM

You guys give the government way too much credit...

I agree.

And then they push the Internet Kill Switch™. Still not bothered? How about the power grid?

Such actions would lead to massive popular unrest, not even China dares turn off the internet completely and Bitcoin can use TOR and other stuff to pass as anything.

As for the grid; a nation without electricity will be raped economically and militarily within a year.

Bitcoin could survive even EMP on a few shielded hard drives and be rebooted later.

As has been said here: Bitcoin will jump onto governments.

myrkul

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: Dansker on September 09, 2012, 06:41:38 AM

I beg to differ. Banks came into existance based on cash fiat money....

Nope, banks came into existence as a secure place to store valuable stuff and ended up doing it so well that the valuable stuff can't even be found anymore, security by obscurity at its finest Wink

Ahh. The "Pirateat40" model.

myrkul

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Quote from: Dansker on September 09, 2012, 06:41:38 AM

I can see plenty of use for a decent bank, doing business in bitcoins, can't you? (Interests, security)

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/--38544

Dansker

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Hello world!

Quote from: ?? on ??

Governments LOVE Bitcoin. For decades (if not centuries) they've been impotent against the banks' enormous power. Now all that can change. The Bitcoin technology renders "banks" as we know them obsolete. The bumbling, obese, bureaucratic wastes-of-inner-city-real-estate are just not necessary any more. Sure, Bitcoin is still Beta and being frantically developed, but I think the word we need to start associating with banks is legacy.

I beg to differ. Banks came into existance based on cash fiat money.

Why would banks not come into existance based on bitcoins?

I can see plenty of use for a decent bank, doing business in bitcoins, can't you? (Interests, security)

Bitcoin Oz

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Wat

Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on August 25, 2012, 03:32:09 PM

Quote from: ElectricMucus on August 25, 2012, 03:15:12 PM

I did not mention apocalyptic evens.

My point is: If bitcoin were to become a threat to governmental power structure and the economy is crumbling already why should they hesitate to take it down with em if all it takes is the push of a button?
People in here like to talk about revolutionary acts and dilute themselves by thinking they could accomplish something without owning infrastructure.

There are numerous ways for a government to bring down an established bitcoin economy if it is not well protected. No way to list them all.
But there are almost no ways if it is.

You do realize that shutting down the internet would anhilate the US economy. We are talking mass riots in every major city, disruption of commerce on the scale of trillions. When some of those riots turn bad it is going to be city wide looting. What is the govt going to do then start executing people in the street? All this because of Bitcoin.

The sheer lunacy of it is there are nodes outside the US, so what is next the US govt launches ICBM on every country who has internet connectivity. The end of civilization as we know it, deaths of billions, and in the counter attack the destruction of the very government who acted to stop the threat that Bitcoin is to the government.

Probably not. Bitcoin may be marginalized, it may be routinely attacked but it will continue to exist. Just like any other technology that has gone global and is in the hands of the people you can't put the genie back in the bottle. Note: this doesn't mean the price of Bitcoin will go up. Its usage could shrink massively but it isn't going away.

Well DHS did just buy 1 billion hollow point bullets Cheesy

randy-waterhouse

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Quote from: myrkul on September 03, 2012, 02:49:59 PM

Quote from: ElectricMucus on September 03, 2012, 02:19:01 PM

It is impossible to list them all and the more severe the situation the more severe a crackdown can be, while at the same time the easier is it for bitcoiners to defend against the crackdown. My statement is just that should there be a severe economic crisis it is very likely that measures would be taken which would require the bitcoin community to own it's on network and power infrastructure. (That would be the classical great depression style and social riots scenario)

I'm actually 100% behind you on this. For a network designed to be decentralized, the internet still is frighteningly centralized. We need to finish the job.

I agree. I think it will evolve in waves with the network technologists always striving for more freedom (decentralisation) and the "others" striving for more oppression (centralisation).

These two forces influencing internet evolution (undercurrents) could be with us for a long time, and have been already in other fields. Every time the oppressive Centralisers (I do not think there is a benign kind) bring in regulated 'solutions' the Networkers evolve technology to a higher level that is resistant and essentially wait for the next move. CJDNS, mesh-networking, Freenet I2P and etc, there are lots of projects and ideas out there that will blossom into any new niches once the next clamp-down arrives.

Networkers versus Centralisers.

However, I think that ultimately the centralisers are doomed now since they have chosen to take the battle onto the Networkers turf, the Network. Take a look at Argentina for the future, Neal Stephenson's Hollow State concept is shaping into a palpable reality there. It is great to see impotent rage expressed by the technological ignorami of the extreme statist bent when their little Hitler fantasies cannot be fulfilled.

myrkul

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Quote from: ElectricMucus on September 03, 2012, 02:19:01 PM

It is impossible to list them all and the more severe the situation the more severe a crackdown can be, while at the same time the easier is it for bitcoiners to defend against the crackdown. My statement is just that should there be a severe economic crisis it is very likely that measures would be taken which would require the bitcoin community to own it's on network and power infrastructure. (That would be the classical great depression style and social riots scenario)

I'm actually 100% behind you on this. For a network designed to be decentralized, the internet still is frighteningly centralized. We need to finish the job.

ElectricMucus

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Just for clarification: I wasn't speaking about TPTB using an EMP to kill of BTC, not necessarily.

Depending on the kind and magnitude some of these might apply:
Propaganda, getting the ISPs to block the protocol, making it "illegal", cutting off private internet users, hired thugs searching for "illicit" software, cutting of the power to certain communities should they exist, etc...

It is impossible to list them all and the more severe the situation the more severe a crackdown can be, while at the same time the easier is it for bitcoiners to defend against the crackdown. My statement is just that should there be a severe economic crisis it is very likely that measures would be taken which would require the bitcoin community to own it's on network and power infrastructure. (That would be the classical great depression style and social riots scenario)

myrkul

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Quote from: MoonShadow on September 03, 2012, 11:11:04 AM

Quote from: myrkul on August 25, 2012, 03:28:04 PM

Quote from: ElectricMucus on August 25, 2012, 03:15:12 PM

I did not mention apocalyptic evens.

My point is: If bitcoin were to become a threat to governmental power structure and the economy is crumbling already why should they hesitate to take it down with em if all it takes is the push of a button?

Because an EMP would be an apocalyptic event. The entire country is too dependent on our electronic network to just bring it down like that. When have you known a government to willfully commit suicide like that?

Even the Third Reich didn't intend to destroy themselves.

Well, pissing in the face of the biggest guy in the prison yard will get you killed, but it's a little bit of a stretch to call it suicide. Wink

MoonShadow

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Quote from: myrkul on August 25, 2012, 03:28:04 PM

Quote from: ElectricMucus on August 25, 2012, 03:15:12 PM

I did not mention apocalyptic evens.

My point is: If bitcoin were to become a threat to governmental power structure and the economy is crumbling already why should they hesitate to take it down with em if all it takes is the push of a button?

Because an EMP would be an apocalyptic event. The entire country is too dependent on our electronic network to just bring it down like that. When have you known a government to willfully commit suicide like that?

Even the Third Reich didn't intend to destroy themselves.

meebs

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Quote from: ?? on ??

The Bitcoin technology renders "banks" as we know them obsolete.

I definitely wouldn't say obsolete. There is always going to be a demand for an entity that safehouses peoples wealth. Whether that is in the form of cash money or a bitcoin file, they will always serve a purpose.

DeathAndTaxes

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Quote from: ElectricMucus on August 25, 2012, 03:15:12 PM

I did not mention apocalyptic evens.

My point is: If bitcoin were to become a threat to governmental power structure and the economy is crumbling already why should they hesitate to take it down with em if all it takes is the push of a button?
People in here like to talk about revolutionary acts and dilute themselves by thinking they could accomplish something without owning infrastructure.

There are numerous ways for a government to bring down an established bitcoin economy if it is not well protected. No way to list them all.
But there are almost no ways if it is.

You do realize that shutting down the internet would anhilate the US economy. We are talking mass riots in every major city, disruption of commerce on the scale of trillions. When some of those riots turn bad it is going to be city wide looting. What is the govt going to do then start executing people in the street? All this because of Bitcoin.

The sheer lunacy of it is there are nodes outside the US, so what is next the US govt launches ICBM on every country who has internet connectivity. The end of civilization as we know it, deaths of billions, and in the counter attack the destruction of the very government who acted to stop the threat that Bitcoin is to the government.

Probably not. Bitcoin may be marginalized, it may be routinely attacked but it will continue to exist. Just like any other technology that has gone global and is in the hands of the people you can't put the genie back in the bottle. Note: this doesn't mean the price of Bitcoin will go up. Its usage could shrink massively but it isn't going away.

myrkul

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Quote from: ElectricMucus on August 25, 2012, 03:15:12 PM

I did not mention apocalyptic evens.

My point is: If bitcoin were to become a threat to governmental power structure and the economy is crumbling already why should they hesitate to take it down with em if all it takes is the push of a button?

Because an EMP would be an apocalyptic event. The entire country is too dependent on our electronic network to just bring it down like that. When have you known a government to willfully commit suicide like that?

ElectricMucus

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I did not mention apocalyptic evens.

My point is: If bitcoin were to become a threat to governmental power structure and the economy is crumbling already why should they hesitate to take it down with em if all it takes is the push of a button?
People in here like to talk about revolutionary acts and dilute themselves by thinking they could accomplish something without owning infrastructure.

There are numerous ways for a government to bring down an established bitcoin economy if it is not well protected. No way to list them all.
But there are almost no ways if it is.

cbeast

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Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.

Quote from: Narydu on August 25, 2012, 12:07:24 AM

Electric apocaliptic events wouls afect the whole economy which oviously relays on pcs so the impact on BTC is unrelevant. But what do you mean by jump into the governments? (get the irony but not sure you say so)

I just mean that governments don't need to officially adopt Bitcoin to use it. Bitcoin will find its way into government use simply by its utility starting with campaign funding, espionage and diplomacy and eventually into mainstream uses like "entertainment" expenses. Eventually, our vices become our bread and butter.

Narydu

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Electric apocaliptic events wouls afect the whole economy which oviously relays on pcs so the impact on BTC is unrelevant. But what do you mean by jump into the governments? (get the irony but not sure you say so)

cbeast

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Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.

Quote from: myrkul on August 24, 2012, 11:41:02 PM

Quote from: cbeast on August 24, 2012, 11:31:35 PM

Quote from: myrkul on August 24, 2012, 11:29:49 PM

Quote from: Domrada on August 24, 2012, 11:23:23 PM

Quote from: cbeast on August 24, 2012, 10:49:13 PM

Quote from: myrkul on August 24, 2012, 10:41:17 PM

Quote from: cbeast on August 24, 2012, 10:37:07 PM

Don't forget emp nukes in the stratosphere. Then there is always all out nuclear warfare. Where are your precious bitcoins now? Grin

I have silver, too. Wink

Well, I hope you can eat it, because everything and everyone else will be dead. Wink

I have bullets.

Heh... Precious metals: Silver, gold, brass and lead.

See you on "The Road."

I hope you're not offended if I say "I hope I don't." Wink

If you don't have electricity and internet, then all your gold is likely going to be counterfeit anyway. Seriously though, to get back on topic, I'm not worried about any of these scenarios, at least globally speaking. The extinction level event is for the way banking has been done. Precious metals will also be worthless compared to Bitcoin. I see the future to be not so much governments jumping into Bitcoin, but Bitcoin jumping into governments. They won't have a choice but to use Bitcoin if they want to stay relevant.

myrkul

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