Greek Debt Committee Declared All Debt To The Troika "Illegal, Illegitimate,..."

bryant.coleman

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Quote from: jaysabi on June 19, 2015, 11:54:56 AM

This writer seems to think the recent rise in Bitcoin is because of Greek EU exit fears, as citizens flea what they predict to be an unstable banking system. I don't know that I agree with his assessment (he offers nothing to back his claim), but it's at least interesting to note.

If the Grexit fears are behind the recent spike of Bitcoin, then the volumes should be very high in Europe, or that should be the case at least in Greece. However, I have noticed that trade volumes in Europe (and Greece) are lower than the average right now. So in my opinion, something else is behing the recent rise of Bitcoin. May be the talks about legalization in Russia?

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Quote from: jaysabi on June 19, 2015, 01:20:36 PM

Quote from: Wilikon on June 19, 2015, 12:11:20 PM

Quote from: LiteCoinGuy on June 17, 2015, 01:20:01 PM

If the greeks will do with bitcoin what they did with their own economy I do not see this as good news for our little community. Let the greeks create their own cryptocoin first then have anyone help out on a exchange.

They can call it the IOUcoin...

Even if Greece adopted Bitcoin wholesale, they can't change anything about how the currency runs. I don't see how it could be bad, but a government such as Greece would never adopt a currency it can't control. That's the whole reason they want to leave the Euro; they can't control it. To the extent anyone in Greece is adopting Bitcoin, it's individuals who are doing so out of fear that whatever the government is going to do is going to screw them over and leave the money they currently have as worthless, which (ostensibly) is why you see them fleeing to global liquid assets, such as gold and Bitcoin (if you believe this article, and I'm not sure I do).

My positoin was on the greek government. The greeks should use bitcoin as anyone else should on the planet. But yes, it is about centralized control, as always.

jaysabi

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Quote from: Wilikon on June 19, 2015, 12:11:20 PM

Quote from: LiteCoinGuy on June 17, 2015, 01:20:01 PM

If the greeks will do with bitcoin what they did with their own economy I do not see this as good news for our little community. Let the greeks create their own cryptocoin first then have anyone help out on a exchange.

They can call it the IOUcoin...

Even if Greece adopted Bitcoin wholesale, they can't change anything about how the currency runs. I don't see how it could be bad, but a government such as Greece would never adopt a currency it can't control. That's the whole reason they want to leave the Euro; they can't control it. To the extent anyone in Greece is adopting Bitcoin, it's individuals who are doing so out of fear that whatever the government is going to do is going to screw them over and leave the money they currently have as worthless, which (ostensibly) is why you see them fleeing to global liquid assets, such as gold and Bitcoin (if you believe this article, and I'm not sure I do).

Wilikon

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Quote from: Marbit on June 19, 2015, 12:16:24 PM

Quote from: sangoku on June 17, 2015, 11:57:42 AM

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-06-17/greek-debt-committee-just-declared-all-debt-illegal-illegitimate-and-odious

Sounds like a desperate attempt to come to a compromise or just simply buy some time?
Among other things, Only if Greece considered bitcoin as a possible alternative currency, how hugely it would affect the market would be something interesting to watch.

And I guess that 1st push towards acceptance is essential, other countries going through turbulence might just follow.
The impact would be interesting

Europe played the "the more the merrier" song when they accepted greece in their club. And look where this european union is now. The bitcoin community needs quality, not quantity. More serious people. Not more deadbeats. Serious poor people who can't have a bank account need a strong bitcoin network. A strong, serious virtual network and a strong, serious people network.

Greece never had a problem living way above their standard. Ever. Bitcoin is beyond greece's problem.

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Quote from: sangoku on June 17, 2015, 11:57:42 AM

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-06-17/greek-debt-committee-just-declared-all-debt-illegal-illegitimate-and-odious

Sounds like a desperate attempt to come to a compromise or just simply buy some time?
Among other things, Only if Greece considered bitcoin as a possible alternative currency, how hugely it would affect the market would be something interesting to watch.

And I guess that 1st push towards acceptance is essential, other countries going through turbulence might just follow.
The impact would be interesting

Wilikon

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Quote from: LiteCoinGuy on June 17, 2015, 01:20:01 PM

If the greeks will do with bitcoin what they did with their own economy I do not see this as good news for our little community. Let the greeks create their own cryptocoin first then have anyone help out on a exchange.

They can call it the IOUcoin...

jaysabi

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Quote from: Mehek on June 19, 2015, 07:23:12 AM

I am pretty sure most of the greek population might not be aware of the existence of bitcoin.
For all those who say that greek should adopt bitcoin as their currency, nope. Keep dreaming.
Either way, bitcoin will always be an alternative of currency, not a replacement.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/bitcoin-value-surges-grexit-fears-make-cryptocurrencies-more-attractive-banks-1506582

This writer seems to think the recent rise in Bitcoin is because of Greek EU exit fears, as citizens flea what they predict to be an unstable banking system. I don't know that I agree with his assessment (he offers nothing to back his claim), but it's at least interesting to note.

Nemo1024

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Quote from: TaunSew on June 19, 2015, 01:16:23 AM

Defaulting on loans and refusing to pay back the principle is a long tradition.

The League of Nations and the UN both ruled a long time ago that regime change is NOT debt relief and yet Communist China and the Russian Federation have yet to pay for all the debt the Tsar, Nationalist China and the Soviets still own (a lot of estimates suggest, if you account for inflation and interest, that debt is actually larger than the US's debt today).

While the Soviet government after the 1917 coup d'etat did indeed refuse to pay on Tzar Russia's debts, Russian Federation after the 1992 hand-shake dissolvement of USSR paid back the Soviet debts - mostly after 2000, once Putin came to power and took the course of reducing Russia's dependency on foreign money-lenders. Moreover, Russian Federation voluntarily took the burden of all the debts of the 14 former Soviet Republics, so that the countries like Latvia, Estonia, Georgia and Ukraine (which are bashing Russia with such an abundance to the American tune) went into 1993 debt-free.

bryant.coleman

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Quote from: Mehek on June 19, 2015, 07:23:12 AM

I am pretty sure most of the greek population might not be aware of the existence of bitcoin.
For all those who say that greek should adopt bitcoin as their currency, nope. Keep dreaming.
Either way, bitcoin will always be an alternative of currency, not a replacement.

As I had posted earlier, the Greek politicians are considering the Drachma and the Russian Rouble as the possible alternatives to the Euro. Right now, they don't have plans for a digital currency. Making Bitcoin as one of the official currencies can bring in a lot of risk to the Greeks. For example, wallet hacks and robberies are very common with Bitcoin. It will take a lot of time to teach them how to store them properly and safely.

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I am pretty sure most of the greek population might not be aware of the existence of bitcoin.
For all those who say that greek should adopt bitcoin as their currency, nope. Keep dreaming.
Either way, bitcoin will always be an alternative of currency, not a replacement.

Netnox

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To think the Greek rush into bitcoin is wishful thinking, majority hasn't even heard of digital currencies or bitcoin and not to mention how it works, setting up wallets, registering at exchanges and stuff, but that shouldn't indeed stop us from affording the knowledge to them.

bryant.coleman

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Quote from: Elwar on June 19, 2015, 05:15:14 AM

The new "regime" makes some superficial changes claiming that they are not responsible for the old regime's debts.

Already the new regime (the one led by Tsipiras and his SYRIZA party) is saying that they are not going to pay back the old regime's (New Democracy / PASOK) debts. So they are already trying this method. But unfortunately, according to the international laws, a regime change is not a valid reason to default on loan payments.

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Quote from: TaunSew on June 19, 2015, 01:16:23 AM

Defaulting on loans and refusing to pay back the principle is a long tradition.

The League of Nations and the UN both ruled a long time ago that regime change is NOT debt relief and yet Communist China and the Russian Federation have yet to pay for all the debt the Tsar, Nationalist China and the Soviets still own (a lot of estimates suggest, if you account for inflation and interest, that debt is actually larger than the US's debt today).

That's actually a great idea on how Greece could get out of this.

Stage a fake "regime change" with fake violence and everything. The leaders feign shock and disgrace and step down (retire to a luxury villa) and the new "regime" makes some superficial changes claiming that they are not responsible for the old regime's debts.

Problem solved.

Lethn

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I know as I said, if the people see a communist or socialist group completely screw over the country then they can no longer blame capitalism for their problems, people have short memories, but if an absolute disaster happened under the watch of the left there would be nowhere else to place the blame.

I do believe that the major parties and ideologies often take advantage of these engineered collapses to place the blame on the other side and gain momentum in elections, they know exactly what they're doing.

bryant.coleman

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Quote from: Lethn on June 19, 2015, 01:58:21 AM

As harsh as it might seem, I think it's better if the communists and socialists do take over the country, the people with sense will just leave and everyone will realise for themselves it's not as great an idea as presented.

The Socialists (PASOK) were the ones who created the crisis in the first place, by taking out loans which they can't pay back. When SYRIZA took over power, they inherited a broken economy and an empty treasury. And anyone who can afford to get out of Greece is doing so, with large numbers going to countries such as the United States and Australia.

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Quote from: Bit-Gods on June 19, 2015, 01:56:40 AM

Quote from: Lethn on June 17, 2015, 01:22:32 PM

The left have taken over entirely in Greece, I think the idea that they'd adopt Bitcoin is extremely optomistic, more than likely they'll blame capitalism itself and become another failed state and the EU will pretend Greece never existed.

YES, EXACTLY. I don't think a country could adopt bitcoin as a currency, at least at this time. The purpose of bitcoin serves as an alternative payment option rather than replacing a currency. And Greece will try to blame capitalism obviously, an easy answer but a hard escape.

As harsh as it might seem, I think it's better if the communists and socialists do take over the country, the people with sense will just leave and everyone will realise for themselves it's not as great an idea as presented.

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Quote from: Lethn on June 17, 2015, 01:22:32 PM

The left have taken over entirely in Greece, I think the idea that they'd adopt Bitcoin is extremely optomistic, more than likely they'll blame capitalism itself and become another failed state and the EU will pretend Greece never existed.

YES, EXACTLY. I don't think a country could adopt bitcoin as a currency, at least at this time. The purpose of bitcoin serves as an alternative payment option rather than replacing a currency. And Greece will try to blame capitalism obviously, an easy answer but a hard escape.

TaunSew

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Defaulting on loans and refusing to pay back the principle is a long tradition.

The League of Nations and the UN both ruled a long time ago that regime change is NOT debt relief and yet Communist China and the Russian Federation have yet to pay for all the debt the Tsar, Nationalist China and the Soviets still own (a lot of estimates suggest, if you account for inflation and interest, that debt is actually larger than the US's debt today).

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Quote from: countryfree on June 18, 2015, 07:18:28 PM

I see it the other way around. It's not the debt, it was all the massive loans they got which were grossly illegitimate. They've also said that they don't want to be humiliated, but I fail to see what humiliation there is with paying your debts.

The troika want to take away the Greek sovereignty, and the Greeks regard this attempt as a ploy to humiliate them. As per the Greeks, a few corrupt and incompetent politicians created this huge mess, by taking high-interests loans from various parties without any plans for the future payment. Most of this money was stolen, and never benefited the ordinary Greeks.

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I see it the other way around. It's not the debt, it was all the massive loans they got which were grossly illegitimate. They've also said that they don't want to be humiliated, but I fail to see what humiliation there is with paying your debts.

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