Has Ledger stopped updating apps for the Nano S

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Quote from: NeuroticFish on November 08, 2022, 02:46:09 AM

You've confused me with the last part. Doesn't SeedSigner need to contain seed or zprv in order to sign tx?!

I like the idea of erasing seed words each time you turn off power from your device, and then import them quickly with QR code scan that contains seed words.
SeedSigner, Krux and few other signing devices have non-persistent storage, so they don't really need secure elements.

Quote from: NeuroticFish on November 08, 2022, 02:46:09 AM

Software is as much as hardware under that warranty, simply because it's only them who can deliver it.
Or you expect they'll change the Nano S for Nano S plus when people will complain that the LL no longer supports their Nano because the software is too old!?
So the important updates will be there.

Check out for yourself if you can still use their ledger live app with all of their many discontinued products like Ledger HW.1, Ledger Nano, Ledger Unplugged and Ledger Blue, than you will answer to your questions.
Warranty for many product doesn't mean you are going to receive updates in future, especially after production stops for this devices, it's rear thing even for smartphones.

Quote from: LoyceV on November 08, 2022, 06:25:25 AM

If it doesn't support new address formats (I'm thinking of Taproot now), the hardware wallet becomes pretty useless.

I think they support Taproot address format.
Hardware wallets with Taproot support are Ledger, Trezor and BitBox02, and I know SeedSigner developers are also working on this.

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Quote from: Pmalek on November 09, 2022, 02:44:59 AM

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on November 08, 2022, 06:46:47 AM

There is an important difference between a hardware wallet no longer receiving updates in order to support new addresses or features, and not being able to work with already existing addresses and features.

I don't see Ledger dropping support for the Nano S in a way that you won't be able to connect it with their software and keep using it, even with outdated features. If Ledger has sold over 5 million devices altogether, I am sure there are at least 1-2 million active Nano S users worldwide right now. It would be too big of a gamble to try and force them to abandon the Nano S by making it unusable with the intent to have them purchase Nano X or Nano S Plus instead. Some would take the bait and do it, while others would be lost as future customers for sure.

It must be admitted that the Ledger has one of the largest (maybe even the bigest) user bases among the hardware wallet manufacturers and, like any company, Ledger is interested in supporting its customers. Especially when there are so many of them. Sudden termination of support for their devices will only cause a flurry of discontent and add another unpleasant scandal to the company's list of failures, affecting its reputation. It seems to me that in the coming years there is no need to wait for the Nano S app update to stop. This is very unprofitable for this brand.

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When talking about planned obsolescence and 'having to replace the wallet in 2 years', it's actually pretty nice to see that Ledger Nano S and Trezor One were / are sold and supported with updates for a pretty long time (6/8 years respectively). You could argue that the manufacturers got lazy and capitalized on the success of their first device, but in fact both tried to release fancier products that simply didn't gain as much traction.

Trezor Model One: released in 2014
Ledger Nano S: released in 2016

I guess with any hardware product, there comes a time when the components just don't hold up with new software features / requirements.. Compare memory prices, for instance. They were much higher than today, 6-8 years ago.

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on November 08, 2022, 06:46:47 AM

There is an important difference between a hardware wallet no longer receiving updates in order to support new addresses or features, and not being able to work with already existing addresses and features.

I don't see Ledger dropping support for the Nano S in a way that you won't be able to connect it with their software and keep using it, even with outdated features. If Ledger has sold over 5 million devices altogether, I am sure there are at least 1-2 million active Nano S users worldwide right now. It would be too big of a gamble to try and force them to abandon the Nano S by making it unusable with the intent to have them purchase Nano X or Nano S Plus instead. Some would take the bait and do it, while others would be lost as future customers for sure.

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Quote from: NeuroticFish on November 08, 2022, 02:46:09 AM

You've confused me with the last part. Doesn't SeedSigner need to contain seed or zprv in order to sign tx?!

Yes, but it doesn't store anything after you turn it off. You need to import your seed phrase from a back up every time you use it.

Quote from: LoyceV on November 08, 2022, 06:25:25 AM

If it doesn't support new address formats (I'm thinking of Taproot now), the hardware wallet becomes pretty useless.

There is an important difference between a hardware wallet no longer receiving updates in order to support new addresses or features, and not being able to work with already existing addresses and features.

Quote from: LoyceV on November 08, 2022, 06:25:25 AM

You forgot to add that the first option includes telling their users to buy their latest hardware wallet. Most people are used to having to replace their computer and now also their phone every few years because it becomes unusable. It makes sense for hardware wallet manufacturers to want that too.

Most of the time people upgrade their computer or their phone is because they want some new hardware, a better GPU, a better camera, and so on. I think people would take a much less favorable stance on having to replace a hardware wallet for an almost identical model simply because the company refuse to continue to update it.

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Quote from: NeuroticFish on November 06, 2022, 07:21:27 AM

So for now I would not be worried. Not yet. After 2024, that's another story.

I didn't realize until now that hardware wallets have such limitations. My assumption was I can use it until it breaks, and when it breaks, restore my seed on a new one.
Having to replace it every couple of years because the manufacturer wants to sell a new one (Planned obsolescence) and refused the update the one I bought already is (to me) a reason to avoid them in the future.

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on November 06, 2022, 07:39:28 AM

I'd imagine old versions will continue to work just fine for several more years, and probably even longer if you pair your device with a 3rd party wallet such as Electrum.

If it doesn't support new address formats (I'm thinking of Taproot now), the hardware wallet becomes pretty useless.

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on November 06, 2022, 07:57:10 AM

And if faced with the option of either having to tell users that they have to temporarily uninstall their other apps to use a larger bitcoin app (which takes all of ~10 seconds to do), or they are not able to use the bitcoin app at all and therefore rendering all Nano S devices around the world useless and pissing off a huge portion of their user base, it's a pretty easy choice for the company to make. And the users would obviously pick the same option too.

You forgot to add that the first option includes telling their users to buy their latest hardware wallet. Most people are used to having to replace their computer and now also their phone every few years because it becomes unusable. It makes sense for hardware wallet manufacturers to want that too.
I'm probably not the only one who doesn't enjoy new hardware anymore: it's expensive, it's a hassle to setup, and it's a hassle to get everything the way you like it again. The same goes for many software updates nowadays, it seems like changing things takes priority over improving things.

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on November 07, 2022, 06:21:30 AM

For the price of some hardware wallets (~$200) you can easily find an old second hand laptop which you can buy, strip the connectivity hardware out of, format the hard drive and install some light weight Linux distro (or even strip out the hard drive too and run Tails via a live USB).

All true. But I have a hardware wallet for convenience. In fact, having to get that device, connecting it, and entering the PIN already feels like a lot of work to do on a regular basis. Even though I'm totally fine booting up a second laptop, it's much less convenient to do. It's much more difficult for the people who can barely turn on the computer they use every day.

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Quote from: NeuroticFish on November 08, 2022, 02:46:09 AM

Or you expect they'll change the Nano S for Nano S plus when people will complain that the LL no longer supports their Nano because the software is too old!?
So the important updates will be there.

Since there have been cases where they have sent free replacement devices even after expired warranties, I could imagine a scenario where it would be possible to get a Nano S Plus if your Nano S breaks. If they run out of spare Nano S', they could ask the customer to only pay the price difference and have a Nano S Plus delivered to them instead. That could be an interesting way to get a new HW for those who still want to stay with Ledger.

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Quote from: dkbit98 on November 07, 2022, 04:51:33 PM

Support doesn't mean they need to update firmware and individual coin apps, it only means they have to answer to people about complains and maybe replace device if they are in warranty.

Software is as much as hardware under that warranty, simply because it's only them who can deliver it.
Or you expect they'll change the Nano S for Nano S plus when people will complain that the LL no longer supports their Nano because the software is too old!?
So the important updates will be there.

Quote from: dkbit98 on November 07, 2022, 04:51:33 PM

I don't know if they are so stupid do make separate apps for each model, that would make their work much more complicated, but it's possible judging how they handled updates for previously retired models.

They've done many questionable moves lately and they've lost a great deal of popularity.
It would make no sense to deliver different software for Nano S and Nano S plus, that costs them more and the effect on people's perception will be very bad.
It could indeed force people buy other models, but the negative advertising will make most turn to other makers.

Quote from: dkbit98 on November 07, 2022, 04:51:33 PM

I like SeedSigner, but it's not solution for dummies, and I think we have larger amount of dummies who are using hardware wallets.
SeedSigner are similar DIY devices are more intended for geeks, and people who like making things for themselves.

SeedSigner is also sold completely assembled. It's not for dummies, but people like the one with the not-that-cold storage from my previous post can probably already use it.

Quote from: dkbit98 on November 07, 2022, 04:51:33 PM

You don't have to trust in secure element (there is none) but you don't have to keep seed words on device also Wink

You've confused me with the last part. Doesn't SeedSigner need to contain seed or zprv in order to sign tx?!

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Quote from: NeuroticFish on November 06, 2022, 07:21:27 AM

They have been still selling Nano S this year, 2022. And, afaik, by the European laws (Ledger is French, right?), they have to offer full support for at least 2 more years.
So for now I would not be worried. Not yet. After 2024, that's another story.

Support doesn't mean they need to update firmware and individual coin apps, it only means they have to answer to people about complains and maybe replace device if they are in warranty.
I don't know if they are so stupid do make separate apps for each model, that would make their work much more complicated, but it's possible judging how they handled updates for previously retired models.

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on November 06, 2022, 07:57:10 AM

And I can't foresee a situation where the bitcoin app becomes so large it doesn't fit on the Nano S at all, at least, not until such a time in the future that most Nano S devices have experienced hardware failure. As I said above, there is no incentive for Ledger to forcibly phase out these devices.

Incentive for them would be to sell a lot more S plus and X devices, to all the people that couldn't use old model S anymore.
I never liked their model of having to update firmware with Bitcoin app in ledger live, even if you are not using that software, so they are forcing you to use it.
Trezor did much better job, they don't have any apps installation, so process of firmware updating is much faster.

Quote from: NeuroticFish on November 07, 2022, 06:30:00 AM

That's why I consider SeedSigner a strong option. It's just a Raspberry Pi Zero (not too far from a general purpose computer after all, just cheaper) with a fancy enclosure and the necessary hardware and software added to it. It's cheaper too than the 200$ mark. Ah, and no WiFi, so less chances for errors.

I like SeedSigner, but it's not solution for dummies, and I think we have larger amount of dummies who are using hardware wallets.
SeedSigner are similar DIY devices are more intended for geeks, and people who like making things for themselves.
You don't have to trust in secure element (there is none) but you don't have to keep seed words on device also Wink

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on November 07, 2022, 06:21:30 AM

Quote from: NeuroticFish on November 07, 2022, 04:16:26 AM

So while looking for fallback cannot hurt, it's early for that ; new HW will most probably be launched meanwhile and then one will have to take a close look again.

If you want a fallback now which you know will be 100% guaranteed to work in 5/10/20 years' time (or as close to 100% guaranteed as possible), then get yourself an airgapped computer. For the price of some hardware wallets (~$200) you can easily find an old second hand laptop which you can buy, strip the connectivity hardware out of, format the hard drive and install some light weight Linux distro (or even strip out the hard drive too and run Tails via a live USB). And even if popular airgapped software like Electrum is long discontinued in 20 years time, you can be almost certain that there will be old copies of it still being hosted or even just a simple tool like Iancoleman which you can use to turn your seed phrase in to private keys and addresses.

An airgapped device plus your seed phrase keeps you completely protected against failure of your hardware wallet.

An (old) airgapped computer is always a good option, but it lacks 2 things: convenience (you probably won't get it out with you) and foolproof (I will never forget the guy that came to bitcointalk complaining that his money got stolen from his "airgapped computer which he used to connect to network only for short periods to get his transactions out", heh).

That's why I consider SeedSigner a strong option. It's just a Raspberry Pi Zero (not too far from a general purpose computer after all, just cheaper) with a fancy enclosure and the necessary hardware and software added to it. It's cheaper too than the 200$ mark. Ah, and no WiFi, so less chances for errors.

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Quote from: NeuroticFish on November 07, 2022, 04:16:26 AM

So while looking for fallback cannot hurt, it's early for that ; new HW will most probably be launched meanwhile and then one will have to take a close look again.

If you want a fallback now which you know will be 100% guaranteed to work in 5/10/20 years' time (or as close to 100% guaranteed as possible), then get yourself an airgapped computer. For the price of some hardware wallets (~$200) you can easily find an old second hand laptop which you can buy, strip the connectivity hardware out of, format the hard drive and install some light weight Linux distro (or even strip out the hard drive too and run Tails via a live USB). And even if popular airgapped software like Electrum is long discontinued in 20 years time, you can be almost certain that there will be old copies of it still being hosted or even just a simple tool like Iancoleman which you can use to turn your seed phrase in to private keys and addresses.

An airgapped device plus your seed phrase keeps you completely protected against failure of your hardware wallet.

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Quote from: m2017 on November 07, 2022, 12:53:00 AM

This is where the dilemma arises: buy now Trezor model T or wait for the release of updated model, which, the release of which may happen just in the period of these 2-3 years, when Nano S will be supported. It seems to me that in this situation, one should not rush, because nothing critically unacceptable in the case of model S is happening now, but I think that there is already a reason to look at other models as a fallback. If Nano S+ or Nano X doesn't interest you.

I agree, there's no rush at all. Nano S will not be phased out neither too soon, neither too abruptly, and during that time many better and cheaper models can be launched.
And not only by known or new HW makers, but also independent projects like SeedSigner.

So while looking for fallback cannot hurt, it's early for that ; new HW will most probably be launched meanwhile and then one will have to take a close look again.

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Quote from: m2017 on November 07, 2022, 12:53:00 AM

But if you plan to use the Nano S for many more years in the future, then it is worth considering having alternative hardware wallets.

I can't see support for the Nano S being withdrawn within 2-3 years, especially when they will still be developing for the S Plus and the minimal amount of work needed (if any) to adapt firmware/software updates for the S.

Quote from: m2017 on November 07, 2022, 12:53:00 AM

This is where the dilemma arises: buy now Trezor model T or wait for the release of updated model, which, the release of which may happen just in the period of these 2-3 years, when Nano S will be supported.

If you are concerned about support disappearing for your hardware wallet in 2-3 years, there is no point buying another device now. Bear in mind that even when support ends, you will still be able to use the device as it currently is, probably for many more years. And if you buy another device now, how do you know you won't have run in to the same problem with it in 2-3 years? And bear in mind Ledger have given absolutely no indication that they are going to pull support for the S any time soon.

If I was using a Nano S, I would have no concerns continuing to use it until such a time that Ledger announce support is ending, which will be years away. Only then would I start shopping around.

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Quote from: m2017 on November 07, 2022, 12:53:00 AM

It seems to me that in this situation, one should not rush, because nothing critically unacceptable in the case of model S is happening now, but I think that there is already a reason to look at other models as a fallback. If Nano S+ or Nano X doesn't interest you.

I personally see Foundation's Passport Batch 2 as a superior product than what Trezor is currently selling. But they are still fresh compared to the competition, and I would wait a bit more before putting a significant part of my portfolio on it. Even if it's an airgapped device.

Some of its cons (but also its pros depending on the person) is that it's a bitcoin-only device and for that it's quite expensive at $260 apiece. Many people like to stray into the occasional altcoin here and there, and for that price tag, I would expect the possibility to do that If I wanted to. Maybe an alternative firmware with altcoin support could be a feature they will consider in the future. At least for a handful of popular alts.

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From the discussion in this thread, I realized that most likely, support for the Ledger Nano S software in the next 2-3 years will be carried out and this is not a reason to panic at the moment. But if you plan to use the Nano S for many more years in the future, then it is worth considering having alternative hardware wallets. For example, a device from a direct competitor. This is where the dilemma arises: buy now Trezor model T or wait for the release of updated model, which, the release of which may happen just in the period of these 2-3 years, when Nano S will be supported. It seems to me that in this situation, one should not rush, because nothing critically unacceptable in the case of model S is happening now, but I think that there is already a reason to look at other models as a fallback. If Nano S+ or Nano X doesn't interest you.

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Quote from: Pmalek on November 06, 2022, 07:41:51 AM

There can also be other reasons why they would need to increase the size of the apps making the scarce internal memory of the Nano S a big problem.

And if faced with the option of either having to tell users that they have to temporarily uninstall their other apps to use a larger bitcoin app (which takes all of ~10 seconds to do), or they are not able to use the bitcoin app at all and therefore rendering all Nano S devices around the world useless and pissing off a huge portion of their user base, it's a pretty easy choice for the company to make. And the users would obviously pick the same option too.

And I can't foresee a situation where the bitcoin app becomes so large it doesn't fit on the Nano S at all, at least, not until such a time in the future that most Nano S devices have experienced hardware failure. As I said above, there is no incentive for Ledger to forcibly phase out these devices.

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on November 06, 2022, 05:58:37 AM

According to GitHub, 2.0.6 is still the latest release: https://github.com/LedgerHQ/app-bitcoin-new/blob/master/CHANGELOG.md

Looks like from the development branch the next version will be 2.1.0. They are currently working on rc3 by the looks of things, so not too far off release: https://github.com/LedgerHQ/app-bitcoin-new/tags

I should have thought about looking at their GitHub repository before creating this thread. Good to know that the app will be released for the old Nano S as well.

Quote from: Lucius on November 06, 2022, 07:01:56 AM

In addition, why would it be a problem to provide support for all models, considering that it is about identical (or very similar) apps that are found on all models?

Because if the codebase gets bigger, the overall size of the app will increase as well. The latest introduction of Taproot was a good example. There can also be other reasons why they would need to increase the size of the apps making the scarce internal memory of the Nano S a big problem.

Quote from: NeuroticFish on November 06, 2022, 07:21:27 AM

And, afaik, by the European laws (Ledger is French, right?), they have to offer full support for at least 2 more years.

God bless the French. Grin

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Quote from: Lucius on November 06, 2022, 07:01:56 AM

In addition, why would it be a problem to provide support for all models, considering that it is about identical (or very similar) apps that are found on all models?

I imagine much of the differences between models (such as Bluetooth, etc.) is dealt with by the device's firmware, rather than the individual apps. And as far as I am ware, the app for the S Plus would be identical to that for the S.

Quote from: NeuroticFish on November 06, 2022, 07:21:27 AM

So for now I would not be worried. Not yet. After 2024, that's another story.

Even then, I'd imagine old versions will continue to work just fine for several more years, and probably even longer if you pair your device with a 3rd party wallet such as Electrum. Barring some critical vulnerability being discovered in the current version (which could still be mitigated against by using your Ledger device connected to a clean airgapped computer), I don't think there's much to worry about.

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Quote from: Pmalek on November 06, 2022, 04:36:24 AM

I would still like to know if future updates will be released for the Nano S as well

They have been still selling Nano S this year, 2022. And, afaik, by the European laws (Ledger is French, right?), they have to offer full support for at least 2 more years.
So for now I would not be worried. Not yet. After 2024, that's another story.

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Quote from: Pmalek on November 06, 2022, 04:36:24 AM

A question for those using a Nano X or Nano S Plus: What is the newest version available for the Bitcoin app on your device?

The latest version on the Nano X is also 2.0.6 (I checked), and I don't think you have to worry about Ledger abandoning the model S just like that, given that they've been selling them for years and there are a lot of people using that device. In addition, why would it be a problem to provide support for all models, considering that it is about identical (or very similar) apps that are found on all models?

Topic: Has Ledger stopped updating apps for the Nano S (Read 186 times)