Topic: HashFast announces specs for new ASIC: 400GH/s - page 23. (Read 880450 times)

Selling bitcoins to pay refunds denominated in bitcoins?

Our intellectual bulldozer seems to be running on the last fumes to power his bulldozery.

I always had trouble understanding the "fun" part in "scamming Bitcoiners for fun and profit", but after reading some threads in the mining section I think I begin to understand how some people derive fun in those situations.

Fiat or no fiat HF never had money to refund everyone in Batch 1. They have lied in their ToS plain and simple. Thank you for clarifying that!

Now you're calling Cara a liar. We're making progress!

EXACTLY.  I had 250 coins that were offline, to be saved... when HF convinced me that my coins where safe if I did not get the hardware.

edit:  i ended up ordering 4 BJ at about 211btc.

While in general I tend to agree with the concept that the units were denominated in USD and refunds would have been that amount, in jjiimm_64's case he was explicitly promised his BTC51 back, with no exclusions. If Hashfast was worried about unlimited liability on the BTC51 in the event that Bitcoin went to $1M, the simple solution would be to just not convert that BTC to USD. Yes that opens up the possibility that BTC would go to 0 and their payment is now worthless, but that's the choice they make when they offered him a full BTC51 refund.

yah.. me to... I only have about 3 or 4 ignores .... ice is now one of them.. what a dickhead.

Sorry ICEBREAKER, I take on many contracts with other companies that promise me things that are too good to be true, like insurance companies and bank guarantees. The way it works in the real world, is that these companies hedge themselves. They have to. Even lotteries have insurance against certain statistical odds.

If my house burns down or my car gets stolen, I do get a refund. We had a freak storm (this is the no matter what part) here last spring and hail damaged a lot of properties, we all got our glass surfaces replaced, in my case it covered all of our solar panels. There are a few cases that excludes their coverage like nuclear disasters and terrorism, but it's clearly described in their contract. There is no discussion about it.

Is that greed? I pay them 5 cents on the dollar for the insured value and they do pay. And they don't even go bankrupt. Why? Because they have a sound business plan that involves hedging and re-insurance.

For all the goods I order in USD and sell in EUR, I hedge all my contracts against currency fluctuations. And with the drop in the EURUSD value over the last months, I'm not affected. I'm not going bankrupt.

It's obvious Hashfast made promises they could not keep because they never hedged. They did not keep a sizeable buffer of refund money in BTC. They did not get a reinsurance contract with a company like Swiss Re.

That shows either malicious intent or incompetence.

In an industry flooded with charlatans like Hashfast, there are at least 2 examples of companies who did honour full refunds: Avalon and ASICMiner.

Their customers are also unreasonable greedy idiots?


Yes, this will have to be settled out of court. It's called karma, and I'm sure you are getting a nice chunk coming your way for the role you play in the entire drama.

The only legal course of action was for HF refund the purchase price (which as always denominated in USD) in fiat.

It would be no different if you wanted a refund for an exact number of Euros or Yen.

HF is simply not liable for fluctuations in media of exchange provided as a convenience.  That's not how it works.  Ask any lawyer.

This has already been explained several times; you and Skye are unbelievably slow learners.

My refund checks were BOUNCED at Chase

So let me get this straight. If 1M$ per bitcoin is too much, if 500$ per bitcoin is too much who sets the limit? How should customers interpret the statement from the HF rep? If bitcoin was 200$ would they get 51 bitcoins as refund? What about at 150$ per bitcoin?

Also by your statement HF never intended to fully refund everyone from Batch 1 after their missed deadline. They had some money for some of the customers, but not for all. So they broke their own ToS by not having money for everyone from Batch 1. Am I reading this correct? HF took money for 4(?) batches and never had any plan/back-up plan to fully refund everyone from Batch 1.

Wow, you have certainly convinced me I am wrong by using such powerful evidence and solid logic.

Next topic:

These books and music are the gheyest things that have ever existed in the entire history of hilarity:

And if that's not lulzy enough, this out:


These will make great gag gifts for the holidays, good thing he takes Bitcoin.  

i very rarely do this, but it's necessary on this occasion.

You make it sound like HF wasn't clear their advanced 28nm ASIC was not an off-the-shelf mass produced commodity device like a Hello Kitty toaster from Amazon, and only available in the future via pre-orders.

Customers' money was clearly being spent to fund the development and manufacture of their machines; it belongs to those who provided components and labor.

Do you really think our BTC were being held in some secret escrow account, perhaps guarded by enchanted fairies, and that HF was footing the entire bill to charitably provide us with ASICs entirely at their own expense?

Why would HF bother to use BitPay and give them a % if our BTC were going into escrow?

In no plausible scenario is your desired windfall a reasonable expectation or demand.

OTOH, if BTC went to $1 and HF tried to pay out $51 refunds, they would have gone to jail or at least gotten in trouble.

The only legal course of action was for HF refund the purchase price (which as always denominated in USD) in fiat.

It would be no different if you wanted a refund for an exact number of Euros or Yen. 

HF is simply not liable for fluctuations in media of exchange provided as a convenience.  That's not how it works.  Ask any lawyer.

This has already been explained several times; you and Skye are unbelievably slow learners.   

Yeah. The first is the truth. The second is your fiction. It's worth than fiction. It's a lie, because you're also claiming that if bitcoin went to $1, HF would have refunded 5100 bitcoins. We all know that never would have happened. They would have trotted out that email and only sent 51.

Exactly. The customers are not investors, the customers are paying for a product the company is selling to be delivered by a specific date (to which they added a clause to change from "October 20-30" to if not "by December 31" after I placed my personal order), and when the company further reneged on their side of the contract by not delivering and/or refunding per their contractual terms and the customers get nothing back, the customers unequivocally got SCREWED by the company.

I have no sympathy for HashFast.

You make it sound like the customers money belonged to HF before they shipped the product. I disagree.

You are wrong about so much.  Nobody can predict the price of BTC.

HF had did save some coins but had to sell them to pay for refunds and other expenses.

The only "empty promise" was the illusion you created for yourself, in which you risk nothing and HF magically conjures unlimited numbers of BTC to compensate for an unprecedented price spike.

HF was willing to provide refunds in BTC, but that was disallowed by the legal scrutiny brought on by windfall-seeking fuckwits such as yourself and encouraged by buffoons like RoadStress.

This is what the HF rep said:


This what you greedy retards chose to hear:


Can you spot the difference?   

and here we are....empty promises broken and those breaking those same promises getting away with it. 

Everyone knew bitcoins could skyrocket or crash. It's what bitcoins have always done. So they should have saved some bitcoins around, then there would be no additional liability. Since they never planned for BTC refunds, their offer was a empty promise meant to deceive customers into buying.