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Topic: [Havelock] Bitcoin Difficulty Derivative (BDD) - page 80. (Read 290037 times)

legendary
Activity: 1386
Merit: 1000
Any progress on auto-exchange EXCH -> MINE/SELL?

I wasn't going to mention anything until it's done, but Havelock is working on it now. I've let them know that it is a 'most-requested' feature, understandably. I haven't been given a specific timeframe, but I'm hoping to have it done before the end of the month.  Smiley
full member
Activity: 230
Merit: 100
Any progress on auto-exchange EXCH -> MINE/SELL?
legendary
Activity: 1386
Merit: 1000
Period 2, Day 6 Report


Balance Post Divs: BTC 243.34002984

Total Units: 1293

NAV/U: BTC 0.18819801


If anyone would like more information listed on these daily reports, please let me know. I feel that the reports don't need to be as detailed as DMS' since all EXCH are exchanged for MINE and SELL and all fund reserves are kept liquid.

I've also been in touch with Havelock regarding a 'succession plan' in the case of my unplanned absence (such as an accident, etc) or other event that may put me out of contact for a prolonged period. This week, I will be providing them with all of the instructions necessary to perform the fund maintenance in my absence, which they have agreed to do.

I hope this assuages the concerns about the fund's status in case of some development of this sort. I reiterate, however, that I'm here for the long term and do not have any reason to be absent from the forums or the fund for any prolonged period of time. Thanks, guys-
full member
Activity: 196
Merit: 100
time running out MR twentyseventy. only hours left.
sr. member
Activity: 253
Merit: 250
Havelock will be told about this. Hopefully BDD will be halted to stop further people getting scammed.
sr. member
Activity: 253
Merit: 250
TwentySeventy about to get dox for his involvement in the xxxprofit scam. I would stay away from anything this guy does. Cannot be trusted and is involved in scams.
legendary
Activity: 1386
Merit: 1000
Period 2, Day 5 Report


Balance Post Divs: 201.54367757

Total Units: 1070

NAV/U: 0.1883585772
newbie
Activity: 48
Merit: 0
Thanks for the detailed explanation - that's really helpful.
legendary
Activity: 1386
Merit: 1000
Period 2, Day 4 Report


Balance Post Divs: 184.23606049

Total Units: 974

NAV/U: 0.1889600620

I missed one user when I was pushing MINE and SELL out this morning - this user missed their dividend paid at Noon, but I have made him whole with respect to the dividend that his MINE should have received and he now has his BDD Pair. Apologies to him for the delay-
legendary
Activity: 1386
Merit: 1000
Hello! Thank you for starting this!

Considering negative DMS experience, do you have any agreement with Havelock to sort things out if you fail to come online for some time?
I hold some DMS shares and just don't want to make the same mistake again Sad

Hey there, that is a good point. While the funds would still be intact, there would still need to be some sort of succession plan in the case that I somehow became totally unavailable.

I will get with Havelock and work up something this week, thanks for the suggestion.
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 250
Hello! Thank you for starting this!

Considering negative DMS experience, do you have any agreement with Havelock to sort things out if you fail to come online for some time?
I hold some DMS shares and just don't want to make the same mistake again Sad
legendary
Activity: 1386
Merit: 1000
Hi,
I'm trying to understand this properly, but I can't quite get my head around it.

If I have 1 MINE and 1 SELL, then common sense tells me that I'm not going to make money.
But, every day the MINE will pay dividends, and every difficulty change the SELL may (and probably will based on the past) pay dividends.

Am I right in thinking that the way I'm losing money by holding both is that the price of EXCH goes down every difficulty change and therefore the market value of MINE and SELL follows it down?

Thanks!

Your common sense is right Smiley - MINE and SELL will be paid out all of the fund's capital over time. Your job is to determine how much you think that MINE will receive and how much SELL will receive.

MINE gets daily dividends based on the current Difficulty. SELL gets dividends if the Difficulty increases overall. The value of EXCH is just the Period Start Net Asset Value per Unit plus 1% (fee). You've already paid that 1% fee when you bought EXCH, plus possibly a little premium depending on when you bought it during the period.

So, you've already paid a little bit of a premium (like everyone does) when buying EXCH - you can't lose any money now simply by holding your Pair.

If you hold MINE and SELL until the end-game, you'll receive right around the current NAV/U (plus a little more due to sales of new EXCH).

If Difficulty continues to increase, the values of all of the three securities will decrease for the following reasons:

1) EXCH will decrease because, as the Diff increases, the capital required to pay 200 Days of MINE Dividends at the current rate will decrease
2) MINE will (should) decrease because, as the Diff increases, a theoretical 5GH/s miner will pay out less as time goes on
3) SELL will decrease because the excess capital no longer needed for MINE's dividends is paid to SELL and the value of SELL, therefore, decreases. This can be hard to understand, but basically if I'm going to (for example) pay out .16 in dividends to SELL over its lifetime, and then I pay out .03 in dividends, you wouldn't expect SELL to still be worth .16, right? You'd expect it to be worth .13.

In this same vein, the market value of SELL decreases as dividends are paid out to it because the maximum theoretical dividends that could be paid out to it have decreased.

Overall, I suggest that you determine what you think the Diff will do - continue to rise? Start to fall (if so, when?)? Plateau (when?). These are the important questions. After you have this answer, run some models using mining calculators (or your own spreadsheet) and figure out what you think a fair price for MINE is.

Once you have that, subtract that value from the current NAV/U - now you've got your fair price for SELL. Which one you're going to sell/keep depends on what the market looks like at the moment. But, there's no penalty to holding onto SELL and MINE until you've found a good entry into the market.

Hope this helps.
newbie
Activity: 48
Merit: 0
Hi,
I'm trying to understand this properly, but I can't quite get my head around it.

If I have 1 MINE and 1 SELL, then common sense tells me that I'm not going to make money.
But, every day the MINE will pay dividends, and every difficulty change the SELL may (and probably will based on the past) pay dividends.

Am I right in thinking that the way I'm losing money by holding both is that the price of EXCH goes down every difficulty change and therefore the market value of MINE and SELL follows it down?

Thanks!
legendary
Activity: 1386
Merit: 1000
Period 2, Day 3 Report


Balance Post Divs: 153.90702661

Total Units: 813

NAV/U: 0.1893075358


hero member
Activity: 728
Merit: 500
Little amount? After 1 week, BDD is already No. 2 in volume behind AM, with roughly 1.5 btc generated in fees...
eltopo did bring up an important matter that I seem to have glossed over when he asked about it last week:

If the Difficulty sees moderate increases (20-35%), then the end-game via increase will not be reached for a number of months (somewhere around 9-14 months). This doesn't change anything about the fundamentals of the fund, I just want to ensure that people don't expect a 'reset' (the Round being finished) any time soon.

And I brought up an important point that eltopo seemed to have glossed over ... Tongue

Anyway, neither of the end-game scenarios should really be taken into account at this point. They're simply too far away. There is no reason for the difficulty to stop growing or even shrink except for a total failure of Bitcoin. So the end-game via difficulty decrease is very far away. The other end-game, via difficulty increase and the NAV/U crossing below 0.2 mBTC, that value is roughly 1000 times as low as the current NAV/U. It requires 10 difficulty-doublings to reach that. At a doubling per month (~25% increase per cycle), that's still almost a year away. And at that point, only 0.1% of the current NAV/U remains, all the rest will have been paid out through dividends.

So for people holding a position or getting in right now, the end-game scenario's are not relevant. 10 months from now, assuming difficulty has been steadily increasing, it could be a different story.
legendary
Activity: 1386
Merit: 1000
Little amount? After 1 week, BDD is already No. 2 in volume behind AM, with roughly 1.5 btc generated in fees...

Yes, but I don't get all of the fees, of course  Smiley

eltopo did bring up an important matter that I seem to have glossed over when he asked about it last week:

If the Difficulty sees moderate increases (20-35%), then the end-game via increase will not be reached for a number of months (somewhere around 9-14 months). This doesn't change anything about the fundamentals of the fund, I just want to ensure that people don't expect a 'reset' (the Round being finished) any time soon.

full member
Activity: 230
Merit: 100
Little amount? After 1 week, BDD is already No. 2 in volume behind AM, with roughly 1.5 btc generated in fees...
full member
Activity: 160
Merit: 100
Rannasha is in the right ballpark when it comes to the benefit of my managing the fund.
The beauty of a thing like DMS, BDD, eltopos ET.DIFF etc. is that you don't have to trust the issuer because it's obvious he or she'll make more money doing this honestly than scamming people. Guess what that means or at least should mean for you concerning disclosing your source of income, especially if there's doubt about your previous ventures. You have "some kind of deal", undisclosed, doesn't quite cut it...

I was hoping that this would be implicitly clear, but I suppose not. Yes, I receive a portion of the exchange fees generated by the three funds. I'm going to see how this works out for the first Round of the funds and if the compensation is worth the time commitment. Hopefully this allays some of the counter-party risk fears.

DMS took a flat 3% on all sales of EXCHANGE, so BDD is a better value to shareholders in that respect.

My goal here is to provide a great derivative product to the community, make a few m/BTC by managing the fund and communicating with shareholders, and possibly establish a brand in the future like TAT has done.


It probably won't be worth your time with the little amount of BTC being traded with these, but down the road I see this being a nice little earner for you if you keep up the hard work, and are happy with a smaller paycheck at first.
legendary
Activity: 1386
Merit: 1000
Rannasha is in the right ballpark when it comes to the benefit of my managing the fund.
The beauty of a thing like DMS, BDD, eltopos ET.DIFF etc. is that you don't have to trust the issuer because it's obvious he or she'll make more money doing this honestly than scamming people. Guess what that means or at least should mean for you concerning disclosing your source of income, especially if there's doubt about your previous ventures. You have "some kind of deal", undisclosed, doesn't quite cut it...

I was hoping that this would be implicitly clear, but I suppose not. Yes, I receive a portion of the exchange fees generated by the three funds. I'm going to see how this works out for the first Round of the funds and if the compensation is worth the time commitment. Hopefully this allays some of the counter-party risk fears.

DMS took a flat 3% on all sales of EXCHANGE, so BDD is a better value to shareholders in that respect.

My goal here is to provide a great derivative product to the community, make a few m/BTC by managing the fund and communicating with shareholders, and possibly establish a brand in the future like TAT has done.
full member
Activity: 149
Merit: 100
Rannasha is in the right ballpark when it comes to the benefit of my managing the fund.
The beauty of a thing like DMS, BDD, eltopos ET.DIFF etc. is that you don't have to trust the issuer because it's obvious he or she'll make more money doing this honestly than scamming people. Guess what that means or at least should mean for you concerning disclosing your source of income, especially if there's doubt about your previous ventures. You have "some kind of deal", undisclosed, doesn't quite cut it...
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