Help me spend my bonus money on a nvidia card for zec - page 2.

azgal0r

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Activity: 25

Merit: 0

Quote from: Bulletdodger on April 10, 2017, 08:40:31 AM

Quote from: philipma1957 on April 10, 2017, 07:38:41 AM

I use drivers 378.78

I hardly know anything in the world of nvidia

but I am getting 1850 h for zec and using 616 watts at the kill-a-watt meter. and I know that is my hot meter my other meter would read 580 or so.

This rig has amd drivers loaded I could see if I can add a rx 480 to it later in the week.

I would be curious to see If I can run eth with the rx 480 and zec with the nvidia's

I am using 1 riser for the 1080 zotac mini the two 1080 ti are in full slots.

hahaha, the company produces consumption measuring device and calls it "kill-a-watt"? Cheesy

Golden!

On topic - that is a really nice hashrate. From 5x480s I get 1530 hash, while using 800W (it's the sweetspot),
Nvidia blows AMD out of the water with zec.

Anyways, I read a lot online about the mini cards, gamers and "casual" users hate them, they say they throttle more easily,
their fan runs on higher RPM etc etc... so I'm back to square 1, I'm thinking about getting the full size ones, price is the same...

To be honest the performance on your RX 480 isn't that great. I do 1470 h/s on 600 W (At the wall) with 5x 480. And my bioses are not even optimized for zec mining !

So what i'm concluding from this experiment is that 1080 ti are very efficient (620h/s for 180W, 3.4 h/W), but they are around 3x the price of modded RX 480 (300 h/s for 120W 2.5h/W) or a modded R9 Fury (~450 h/s for 200W, 2.25H/w ).
So we got 30% increase in efficiency for a price multiplied by 3, that doesn't seem like the sickest thing after thinking about it.
As far as I understand the problem with nvidia is that we don't have a lot of control over voltage and memory timings, so we can't really exploit the cards power to a 100%, also the miner's are maybe not yet fully optimized.
Meanwhile with AMD cards almost everything is tweakable enabling miners to optimize their card for the sole purpose of mining. Just look at the R9 fury that is built on 28nm and achieving almost the same efficiency as a card built on 14nm !

Given these i'm pretty sure vega will blow the 1080 ti out of the water on zec mining once we unleash our modding community. I'm sure they are already fully prepared.

TheRider

full member

Activity: 157

Merit: 100

Quote from: zer0k on April 11, 2017, 09:03:27 AM

I've got a 1060 6GB humming along at 320+

Brand and power at the wall please?

philipma1957

legendary

Activity: 4326

Merit: 8950

'The right to privacy matters'

Quote from: zer0k on April 11, 2017, 09:03:27 AM

I've got a 1060 6GB humming along at 320+ and hoping to grab a couple of 1080ti's shortly.

Do you guys mine directly to ZEC or just use nicehash and have it converted to BTC?

for now nicehash to btc

zer0k

sr. member

Activity: 349

Merit: 250

I've got a 1060 6GB humming along at 320+ and hoping to grab a couple of 1080ti's shortly.

Do you guys mine directly to ZEC or just use nicehash and have it converted to BTC?

QuintLeo

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Activity: 1498

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Quote from: philipma1957 on April 01, 2017, 12:24:35 PM

Quote from: zer0k on April 01, 2017, 12:18:10 PM

A bit of data here to get you started - http://cryptomining-blog.com/tag/gtx-1080-ti-zec-efficiency/

So the 1080 ti gives around 560 to 580

On efficiency settings.

Since I want a one or two card or three card rig this is helpful.

Thanks

As opposed to my 1070s at about half the cost of a 1080 ti and about $100ish less than the 1080 that manage over 400 on all of them (abet with VERY MILD overclocking - stock would probably be 380-400 range though, and perhaps 350ish at "most efficient" settings).

I do not have a rig with Nvidia coexisting with RX series AMD, but quite a few of my rigs have 1070(s) coexisting with a wide range of older AMD APU/GPU cards (HD 7xxx series or A10 7860/7890).

My go-to cards at this point are Gigabyte - the 2-fan full-size cards https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814125875, and their micro-ATX very short model with the single fan.

The EVGA cards I have work fine too, but don't seem to run QUITE as fast.

d57heinz

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Bitcoin Talks Bullshit Walks

Quote from: philipma1957 on April 10, 2017, 11:14:13 AM

Quote from: d57heinz on April 10, 2017, 09:06:40 AM

Quote from: philipma1957 on April 10, 2017, 07:38:41 AM

Quote from: d57heinz on April 10, 2017, 06:35:16 AM

Quote from: reelen on April 10, 2017, 01:23:01 AM

Quote from: d57heinz on April 09, 2017, 10:48:10 PM

@phillipma1957

Is it possible to mix a rig with amd and nvidia? I'm rather impressed by the speed/watt ratio of the nvidia. I may try one or two out soon. I just bought 12 480's to run with the biostars. But I have some pc's with a couple unused ports. If they are possible to mix I just may purchase a couple of these ti's. Do you or anyone have any exp with mixing and stability of the rig upon doing so. TIA

Edit. Also I'm noob when it comes to nvidia. Can these been ran at full speed thru a riser?

2nd edit. I see now you have it connected via riser. (Overlooked that first time thru your photos). I assume with them being below 512 bit data transfer i.e. r9390x it would work the same thru riser.

You can mix a rig, but the process I went through was annoying and you have to install both sets of drivers.

Thanks for the feedback. So no real tricks or hacks to make them work? Are there certain nvidia drivers that work best with mining software? I.e. 16.12.2 work best for Polaris cards on claymore. Anything like that with nvidia.

BR

I got a lot info from this thread

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/ewbfs-cuda-zcash-miner-1707546

I use drivers 378.78

I hardly know anything in the world of nvidia

but I am getting 1850 h for zec and using 616 watts at the kill-a-watt meter. and I know that is my hot meter my other meter would read 580 or so.

This rig has amd drivers loaded I could see if I can add a rx 480 to it later in the week.

I would be curious to see If I can run eth with the rx 480 and zec with the nvidia's

I am using 1 riser for the 1080 zotac mini the two 1080 ti are in full slots.

Thanks for the info. Going to be looking forward to building up a rig with nvidia just for sh%#s and giggles

gonna have to work on getting the best price for the cards. Ive got a load of shirts to print over the next few days then ill have more time to look into it. Phil would you be interested in a few of those cases i have to put your rigs in for the summer? (https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/converting-old-wiibox-a1-btc-miner-into-a-6-gpu-rig-wip-1859550) I can imagine that room be getting rather hot when outside temps start getting up there. I dont want anything for them.. just cover ship cost.. Ill gut them to reduce weight leaving you with the parts i kept to build it. If you want the ras pi's you can have them as well. Ive got way to many of those darn things. The a1 weigh about 40-50 lbs a pc loaded. Im building my second one with the other biostar mobo i have. Should be completed today. temps got to 80 f yesterday and the one i built in that thread ran at 60 % fan top heat on card was 55c. Those that are in my milk crates ran upwards of 72c at 80% fan. Big difference!.. Let me know we can work something out. As always appreciate your info. Very valuable. Thanks again

BR

okay just checked the cases.

I need to do a few things, before I say yes to two cases.

Please remind me near April 28th.

I should know what I am doing with the move of gear to the solar array.

.

No problem. I'll get them gutted in next couple days and give ya an idea what it will weigh so we can figure shipping. Don't worry about paying shipping ahead of time. I'll cover it till ya get them. I know your good for it.

BR

philipma1957

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Activity: 4326

Merit: 8950

'The right to privacy matters'

Quote from: d57heinz on April 10, 2017, 09:06:40 AM

Quote from: philipma1957 on April 10, 2017, 07:38:41 AM

Quote from: d57heinz on April 10, 2017, 06:35:16 AM

Quote from: reelen on April 10, 2017, 01:23:01 AM

Quote from: d57heinz on April 09, 2017, 10:48:10 PM

@phillipma1957

Is it possible to mix a rig with amd and nvidia? I'm rather impressed by the speed/watt ratio of the nvidia. I may try one or two out soon. I just bought 12 480's to run with the biostars. But I have some pc's with a couple unused ports. If they are possible to mix I just may purchase a couple of these ti's. Do you or anyone have any exp with mixing and stability of the rig upon doing so. TIA

Edit. Also I'm noob when it comes to nvidia. Can these been ran at full speed thru a riser?

2nd edit. I see now you have it connected via riser. (Overlooked that first time thru your photos). I assume with them being below 512 bit data transfer i.e. r9390x it would work the same thru riser.

You can mix a rig, but the process I went through was annoying and you have to install both sets of drivers.

Thanks for the feedback. So no real tricks or hacks to make them work? Are there certain nvidia drivers that work best with mining software? I.e. 16.12.2 work best for Polaris cards on claymore. Anything like that with nvidia.

BR

I got a lot info from this thread

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/ewbfs-cuda-zcash-miner-1707546

I use drivers 378.78

I hardly know anything in the world of nvidia

but I am getting 1850 h for zec and using 616 watts at the kill-a-watt meter. and I know that is my hot meter my other meter would read 580 or so.

This rig has amd drivers loaded I could see if I can add a rx 480 to it later in the week.

I would be curious to see If I can run eth with the rx 480 and zec with the nvidia's

I am using 1 riser for the 1080 zotac mini the two 1080 ti are in full slots.

Thanks for the info. Going to be looking forward to building up a rig with nvidia just for sh%#s and giggles

gonna have to work on getting the best price for the cards. Ive got a load of shirts to print over the next few days then ill have more time to look into it. Phil would you be interested in a few of those cases i have to put your rigs in for the summer? (https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/converting-old-wiibox-a1-btc-miner-into-a-6-gpu-rig-wip-1859550) I can imagine that room be getting rather hot when outside temps start getting up there. I dont want anything for them.. just cover ship cost.. Ill gut them to reduce weight leaving you with the parts i kept to build it. If you want the ras pi's you can have them as well. Ive got way to many of those darn things. The a1 weigh about 40-50 lbs a pc loaded. Im building my second one with the other biostar mobo i have. Should be completed today. temps got to 80 f yesterday and the one i built in that thread ran at 60 % fan top heat on card was 55c. Those that are in my milk crates ran upwards of 72c at 80% fan. Big difference!.. Let me know we can work something out. As always appreciate your info. Very valuable. Thanks again

BR

okay just checked the cases.

I need to do a few things, before I say yes to two cases.

Please remind me near April 28th.

I should know what I am doing with the move of gear to the solar array.

d57heinz

legendary

Activity: 1453

Merit: 1011

Bitcoin Talks Bullshit Walks

Quote from: philipma1957 on April 10, 2017, 07:38:41 AM

Quote from: d57heinz on April 10, 2017, 06:35:16 AM

Quote from: reelen on April 10, 2017, 01:23:01 AM

Quote from: d57heinz on April 09, 2017, 10:48:10 PM

@phillipma1957

Is it possible to mix a rig with amd and nvidia? I'm rather impressed by the speed/watt ratio of the nvidia. I may try one or two out soon. I just bought 12 480's to run with the biostars. But I have some pc's with a couple unused ports. If they are possible to mix I just may purchase a couple of these ti's. Do you or anyone have any exp with mixing and stability of the rig upon doing so. TIA

Edit. Also I'm noob when it comes to nvidia. Can these been ran at full speed thru a riser?

2nd edit. I see now you have it connected via riser. (Overlooked that first time thru your photos). I assume with them being below 512 bit data transfer i.e. r9390x it would work the same thru riser.

You can mix a rig, but the process I went through was annoying and you have to install both sets of drivers.

Thanks for the feedback. So no real tricks or hacks to make them work? Are there certain nvidia drivers that work best with mining software? I.e. 16.12.2 work best for Polaris cards on claymore. Anything like that with nvidia.

BR

I got a lot info from this thread

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/ewbfs-cuda-zcash-miner-1707546

I use drivers 378.78

I hardly know anything in the world of nvidia

but I am getting 1850 h for zec and using 616 watts at the kill-a-watt meter. and I know that is my hot meter my other meter would read 580 or so.

This rig has amd drivers loaded I could see if I can add a rx 480 to it later in the week.

I would be curious to see If I can run eth with the rx 480 and zec with the nvidia's

I am using 1 riser for the 1080 zotac mini the two 1080 ti are in full slots.

Thanks for the info. Going to be looking forward to building up a rig with nvidia just for sh%#s and giggles

gonna have to work on getting the best price for the cards. Ive got a load of shirts to print over the next few days then ill have more time to look into it. Phil would you be interested in a few of those cases i have to put your rigs in for the summer? (https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/converting-old-wiibox-a1-btc-miner-into-a-6-gpu-rig-wip-1859550) I can imagine that room be getting rather hot when outside temps start getting up there. I dont want anything for them.. just cover ship cost.. Ill gut them to reduce weight leaving you with the parts i kept to build it. If you want the ras pi's you can have them as well. Ive got way to many of those darn things. The a1 weigh about 40-50 lbs a pc loaded. Im building my second one with the other biostar mobo i have. Should be completed today. temps got to 80 f yesterday and the one i built in that thread ran at 60 % fan top heat on card was 55c. Those that are in my milk crates ran upwards of 72c at 80% fan. Big difference!.. Let me know we can work something out. As always appreciate your info. Very valuable. Thanks again

BR

Bulletdodger

sr. member

Activity: 337

Merit: 250

Quote from: philipma1957 on April 10, 2017, 07:38:41 AM

I use drivers 378.78

I hardly know anything in the world of nvidia

but I am getting 1850 h for zec and using 616 watts at the kill-a-watt meter. and I know that is my hot meter my other meter would read 580 or so.

This rig has amd drivers loaded I could see if I can add a rx 480 to it later in the week.

I would be curious to see If I can run eth with the rx 480 and zec with the nvidia's

I am using 1 riser for the 1080 zotac mini the two 1080 ti are in full slots.

hahaha, the company produces consumption measuring device and calls it "kill-a-watt"? Cheesy

Golden!

On topic - that is a really nice hashrate. From 5x480s I get 1530 hash, while using 800W (it's the sweetspot),
Nvidia blows AMD out of the water with zec.

Anyways, I read a lot online about the mini cards, gamers and "casual" users hate them, they say they throttle more easily,
their fan runs on higher RPM etc etc... so I'm back to square 1, I'm thinking about getting the full size ones, price is the same...

philipma1957

legendary

Activity: 4326

Merit: 8950

'The right to privacy matters'

Quote from: d57heinz on April 10, 2017, 06:35:16 AM

Quote from: reelen on April 10, 2017, 01:23:01 AM

Quote from: d57heinz on April 09, 2017, 10:48:10 PM

@phillipma1957

Is it possible to mix a rig with amd and nvidia? I'm rather impressed by the speed/watt ratio of the nvidia. I may try one or two out soon. I just bought 12 480's to run with the biostars. But I have some pc's with a couple unused ports. If they are possible to mix I just may purchase a couple of these ti's. Do you or anyone have any exp with mixing and stability of the rig upon doing so. TIA

Edit. Also I'm noob when it comes to nvidia. Can these been ran at full speed thru a riser?

2nd edit. I see now you have it connected via riser. (Overlooked that first time thru your photos). I assume with them being below 512 bit data transfer i.e. r9390x it would work the same thru riser.

You can mix a rig, but the process I went through was annoying and you have to install both sets of drivers.

Thanks for the feedback. So no real tricks or hacks to make them work? Are there certain nvidia drivers that work best with mining software? I.e. 16.12.2 work best for Polaris cards on claymore. Anything like that with nvidia.

BR

I got a lot info from this thread

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/ewbfs-cuda-zcash-miner-1707546

I use drivers 378.78

I hardly know anything in the world of nvidia

but I am getting 1850 h for zec and using 616 watts at the kill-a-watt meter. and I know that is my hot meter my other meter would read 580 or so.

This rig has amd drivers loaded I could see if I can add a rx 480 to it later in the week.

I would be curious to see If I can run eth with the rx 480 and zec with the nvidia's

I am using 1 riser for the 1080 zotac mini the two 1080 ti are in full slots.

d57heinz

legendary

Activity: 1453

Merit: 1011

Bitcoin Talks Bullshit Walks

Quote from: reelen on April 10, 2017, 01:23:01 AM

Quote from: d57heinz on April 09, 2017, 10:48:10 PM

@phillipma1957

Is it possible to mix a rig with amd and nvidia? I'm rather impressed by the speed/watt ratio of the nvidia. I may try one or two out soon. I just bought 12 480's to run with the biostars. But I have some pc's with a couple unused ports. If they are possible to mix I just may purchase a couple of these ti's. Do you or anyone have any exp with mixing and stability of the rig upon doing so. TIA

Edit. Also I'm noob when it comes to nvidia. Can these been ran at full speed thru a riser?

2nd edit. I see now you have it connected via riser. (Overlooked that first time thru your photos). I assume with them being below 512 bit data transfer i.e. r9390x it would work the same thru riser.

You can mix a rig, but the process I went through was annoying and you have to install both sets of drivers.

Thanks for the feedback. So no real tricks or hacks to make them work? Are there certain nvidia drivers that work best with mining software? I.e. 16.12.2 work best for Polaris cards on claymore. Anything like that with nvidia.

BR

reelen

full member

Activity: 189

Merit: 100

Quote from: d57heinz on April 09, 2017, 10:48:10 PM

@phillipma1957

Is it possible to mix a rig with amd and nvidia? I'm rather impressed by the speed/watt ratio of the nvidia. I may try one or two out soon. I just bought 12 480's to run with the biostars. But I have some pc's with a couple unused ports. If they are possible to mix I just may purchase a couple of these ti's. Do you or anyone have any exp with mixing and stability of the rig upon doing so. TIA

Edit. Also I'm noob when it comes to nvidia. Can these been ran at full speed thru a riser?

2nd edit. I see now you have it connected via riser. (Overlooked that first time thru your photos). I assume with them being below 512 bit data transfer i.e. r9390x it would work the same thru riser.

You can mix a rig, but the process I went through was annoying and you have to install both sets of drivers.

d57heinz

legendary

Activity: 1453

Merit: 1011

Bitcoin Talks Bullshit Walks

@phillipma1957

Is it possible to mix a rig with amd and nvidia? I'm rather impressed by the speed/watt ratio of the nvidia. I may try one or two out soon. I just bought 12 480's to run with the biostars. But I have some pc's with a couple unused ports. If they are possible to mix I just may purchase a couple of these ti's. Do you or anyone have any exp with mixing and stability of the rig upon doing so. TIA

Edit. Also I'm noob when it comes to nvidia. Can these been ran at full speed thru a riser?

2nd edit. I see now you have it connected via riser. (Overlooked that first time thru your photos). I assume with them being below 512 bit data transfer i.e. r9390x it would work the same thru riser.

philipma1957

legendary

Activity: 4326

Merit: 8950

'The right to privacy matters'

Quote from: Bulletdodger on April 09, 2017, 02:54:42 PM

Quote from: arielbit on April 09, 2017, 09:52:14 AM

TIP: to remove screw with a sticker, you have to use a vise grip (smaller nose to avoid hitting stuff when you turn it) on the screw but cover it a paper towel or a fine cloth.....I'm successful at MSI cards for 3 times already Wink

Haha, great tip! I'll try it out Wink

@philipma1957 - yes, I agree, but I think 1070 has a better ROI, especially if you can get one for $350.
It can do 460 sol/s at a sweetspot, and use like 140W.
Cheapest 1080 ti I can find in EU is around $730 without shipping, and it does around 630 sol/s on ZEC while using 250W?

So, how about my 1070 mini question?
I'd get 6 of them, strictly for ZEC, good idea?

well if you control heat by setting at 65-75 power settings why not.

Remember in my case I have a lot of amd cards if all nvidia coins drop.

So I am hedged.

and the vise grips trick can work.

Bulletdodger

sr. member

Activity: 337

Merit: 250

Quote from: arielbit on April 09, 2017, 09:52:14 AM

TIP: to remove screw with a sticker, you have to use a vise grip (smaller nose to avoid hitting stuff when you turn it) on the screw but cover it a paper towel or a fine cloth.....I'm successful at MSI cards for 3 times already Wink

Haha, great tip! I'll try it out Wink

@philipma1957 - yes, I agree, but I think 1070 has a better ROI, especially if you can get one for $350.
It can do 460 sol/s at a sweetspot, and use like 140W.
Cheapest 1080 ti I can find in EU is around $730 without shipping, and it does around 630 sol/s on ZEC while using 250W?

So, how about my 1070 mini question?
I'd get 6 of them, strictly for ZEC, good idea?

philipma1957

legendary

Activity: 4326

Merit: 8950

'The right to privacy matters'

Yeah 1070s are nice. But the better 1080 ti's like the Aorus do 700h in Thier sleep.

If I could get six Aorus 1080 ti's at the right price I would buy them.

They would fit on my z170 mobos easy.

I could do two on each mobo do 1450h per mobo.

Around 450 watts per mobo.

arielbit

legendary

Activity: 3444

Merit: 1061

Quote from: Bulletdodger on April 09, 2017, 09:31:26 AM

Hey guys,
I got 5 rx 480s (and one 1070), 480's sweet spot is 1200 mhz base and 2250 mem clock (it doesn't go higher), they do around 300-300 sol/s per card.
Yet my 1070 does 460 sol/s, so I'm gonna make another rig with 1070's.

I'm looking for a maker which doesn't have warranty void shit if thermal paste is changed (msi has that for example),
so I ran into 1070 mini http://www.gigabyte.com/Graphics-Card/GV-N1070IXOC-8GD#kf
I can get it pretty cheap, my question is - does it perform as well as the "normal" 1070?
Does it overheat? I want to change the thermal paste cause some tests show -5 to -10 celsius and +100 on clock speed if good paste is used.

What do you guys think?

Back side image:
https://content.hwigroup.net/images/products_xl/355405/2/gigabyte-geforce-gtx-1070-mini-itx-8gb.jpg

I've seen cards from msi and asus with warranty sticker on screws, so changing thermal paste voids warranty..I don't know about gigabyte..

I noticed Zotac don't have those..so I'm going for Zotac..waiting for 1080 ti amp extreme, my mining room is getting hotter so I'm investing in space (higher hashrate per card=1080ti) and bigger cooler (extreme edition)...basically I'm paying more for density and cooling..

TIP: to remove screw with a sticker, you have to use a vise grip (smaller nose to avoid hitting stuff when you turn it) on the screw but cover it a paper towel or a fine cloth.....I'm successful at MSI cards for 3 times already Wink

Bulletdodger

sr. member

Activity: 337

Merit: 250

Hey guys,
I got 5 rx 480s (and one 1070), 480's sweet spot is 1200 mhz base and 2250 mem clock (it doesn't go higher), they do around 300-300 sol/s per card.
Yet my 1070 does 460 sol/s, so I'm gonna make another rig with 1070's.

I'm looking for a maker which doesn't have warranty void shit if thermal paste is changed (msi has that for example),
so I ran into 1070 mini http://www.gigabyte.com/Graphics-Card/GV-N1070IXOC-8GD#kf
I can get it pretty cheap, my question is - does it perform as well as the "normal" 1070?
Does it overheat? I want to change the thermal paste cause some tests show -5 to -10 celsius and +100 on clock speed if good paste is used.

What do you guys think?

Back side image:
https://content.hwigroup.net/images/products_xl/355405/2/gigabyte-geforce-gtx-1070-mini-itx-8gb.jpg

TheYankeesWin!

sr. member

Activity: 465

Merit: 301

That Aorus does look big Grin

I noticed that ZEC is moving to .058 btc from .050 btc

Maybe you are right and Nvidia bumped it up a bit all the 1080 ti cards sold out.

http://coinmarketcap.com/

It went from 12 to 11th place.

Just like you said it is only 72 million net worth and Nvidia is worth more then 30 billion they can bump up ZEC anytime they want to.

philipma1957

legendary

Activity: 4326

Merit: 8950

'The right to privacy matters'

Quote from: TheYankeesWin! on April 08, 2017, 12:01:25 PM

Has the third card arrived? You said it was coming on Saturday.

It is in. I am doing 600 watts and about 1830 h entire rig.

3 cards.
this is the aorus 1080 ti real big 3 slot card

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814125954

600 watts this means I will need to get a bigger psu then a 750 watter.
as the 600 watts is with a 72% power setting
it reads 759 watts at 100% that it too much so I will switch out psu later today

card temps are
60c for the aorous 1080 ti
49c for the mini zotac 1080
57c for the zotac 1080 ti FE

the aorus is really big card a 3 slot not a two slot like the other two

Topic: Help me spend my bonus money on a nvidia card for zec - page 2. (Read 8623 times)