Topic: Hmmm -- is this the end of BTC in AUS? !! Furious !! - page 2. (Read 3413 times)

What happens to Australians who buy bitcoins from another country, like say, in Japan or the Philippines? (They're close enough you could talk to someone there, or you could take a quick vacation and actually do business with an exchange.)

What happens if no one else knows about the transaction? Or to rephrase that, how would the Australian government know if you bought bitcoins?

Many country tried to stop this but Bitcoin can't be stopped

I cant wait till people start fucking them up, RARRRGHHHHH CNTS!!!!!


Bro...

Have a read of my post above yours, and all the examples they put forward, this is from the ATO.

Does this mean that a normal NON-business Non GST registered person.. wanting to buy a Bitcoin from an exchange which are GST registered, need to actually pay GST on the bitcoin he purchases of the exchange?


You must read my post which was copied from the ATO to see what I mean.




PS -- -FoR those who don't know GST = 10%

No it is not the end of XBT in AUS, but XBT and other crypto-currencies may have been turned into the perfect instrument to avoid and / or evade the GST is Australia. My take is that the Australian Tax Office officials are either extremely naive and do not understand how the GST actually works or what is more likely the case have their hands tied by a very narrow definition of money written into existing legislation. GST/VAT work precisely because barter transactions are very rare and they do not apply to the medium of exchange itself otherwise known as money.

What happens now when a business accepts XBT as payment for goods or services subject to the GST. They have to pay GST on the XBT, but to whom? To the seller of the XBT, formally a "consumer" and now a new GST registrant. The net result is that in this transaction no additional GST is collected since the GST on the XBT offsets the GST on the goods and services. The business now has an GST input credit which they can use to offset the GST they collect on AUD sales or even get a credit back from the government if they "export" the XBT out of Australia. Now what happens to our new GST registrant formally a consumer. Well since theoretically they are now responsible to remit the collected GST on the XBT to the Australian Tax Office, but wait they are now in the business of selling XBT! So they have expenses subject to GST they can claim (legal avoidance) and if they obtain XBT without paying GST (try collecting GST when XBT "crosses the border") tremendous opportunities for evasion. The net result of this will be the rise in GST registrations increasing GST collection costs and a reduction in actual GST collected. Initially it will be a trickle but once Aussies figure out how XBT and other crypto-currencies can be used to avoid and evade the GST, by turning consumers into GST registered businesses, it will become a flood.

Sooner or later the Australian government will come to its senses and follow the lead of the United Kingdom on this. G'day

Ok here is something I found which is unclear, where is the example of David who is Not-registered for GST decides to purchase Bitcoin from Liams exchange, Does not state that here , smart asses, totally missed that example out. Or may that same example can be seen in another one below but in different context which I couldnt see. This is where people get confused and think that only a BUsiness buying BTC needs to pay GST and if that business uses it in a non-business manner they can claim all that GST back.. Is that right?

Ruling

5. A transfer of bitcoin is a 'supply' for GST purposes.1 The exclusion from the definition of supply for supplies of money2 does not apply to bitcoin because bitcoin is not 'money' for the purposes of the GST Act.3

6. The supply of bitcoin is not a 'financial supply' under section 40-5. Further, it is not an input taxed supply under paragraph 9-30(2)(b).

7. A supply of bitcoin is a taxable supply under section 9-5 if the other requirements in section 9-5 are met and the supply of bitcoin is not GST-free under Division 38 (for example, as a supply to a non-resident for use outside of Australia).4 A supply of bitcoin in exchange for goods or services will be treated as a barter transaction.

Example 1: bitcoin exchange transactions

8. Liam carries on a business buying and selling bitcoin (BTC) as an exchange service online in Australia charging a 1% commission on the published exchange rate. Liam is registered for GST.

9. David, who is not registered for GST, uses Liam's online service to exchange 10 BTC to Australian dollars. The exchange rate at the time of the transaction is 1BTC = AUD662. The commission is $66.20. David receives AUD$6,553.80 for his 10 BTC.

10. The following day Karin, who is registered for GST, wishes to purchase 10 BTC from Liam's online service for use in acquiring an asset for her business. The exchange rate is 1BTC = AUD662. Karin acquires the 10 BTC for AUD$6,686.20 plus GST. The GST inclusive amount of AUD$7,354.40 is calculated as follows: 10 BTC x AUD$662, plus AUD$66.20 commission, plus AUD$668.62 GST.

11. Liam records this exchange transaction with Karin and includes the amount in his business activity statement. If Karin's acquisition is wholly for a creditable purpose, Karin may claim input tax credits for the GST she paid on the acquisition of the bitcoin. When Karin later acquires an asset in exchange for bitcoin, she will record the supply of bitcoin as a taxable supply and an equivalent credit may be claimed in respect of her asset acquisition.

Example 2: bitcoin provided in exchange for goods or services

12. Paul owns a computer shop and is registered for GST. He sells a server for a GST-inclusive price of $7,700 to Ross Co, a building company that is registered for GST. Paul agrees to accept bitcoin from Ross Co in exchange for the server.

13. When Paul lodges his business activity statement, he includes $7,700 for the taxable supply of the server to Ross Co and claims credits of $700 for the acquisition of the bitcoin. When Ross Co lodges its business activity statement, it includes $7,700 for the GST inclusive market value of the bitcoin, and claims credits of $700 for the acquisition of the server.

Example 3: merchant using an intermediary to accept bitcoin in exchange for goods or services

14. Following on from Example 2 above, Paul has an agreement with an intermediary acting as his agent to accept bitcoin in exchange for goods and services. When customers provide bitcoin to the intermediary in exchange for goods and services, Paul pays commission to the intermediary equal to 1% of the price. The intermediary agrees to deposit Australian currency (immediately or within one day) into Paul's nominated bank account. There is no agreement between the customer and the intermediary.

15. Two transactions occur here. First, the customer supplies bitcoin in exchange for the supply of goods and services from Paul as a barter transaction. The GST consequences of this are explained in Example 2. Second, Paul supplies bitcoin to the intermediary (through the transfer of bitcoin from the customer) for Australian currency which is treated as a taxable supply by Paul on which GST is payable. The intermediary provides Paul with taxable services for which the commission is consideration and the intermediary may claim credits for the acquisition of the bitcoin.

the funny things is some gov hate btc but they loved to collect money from btc tax.
or do we have to call " LegaL MoB "

+1
Honey badgers don't do law.

I cannot recall any point in history when people were free. Maybe in the very early stages when the ancestors of our species did not organize in groups.

When a society collapses, after a brief period of struggle the most influential/strongest authority grabs power and exploits everyone to their own advantage.
I'm hopeful that technologies like the internet, bitcoin, anonymity networks and free file/information sharing can help breaking this vicious cycle.

Recent developments are very concerning though, especially that the majority of the population is relying on governments.

"The illusion of freedom will continue as long as it's profitable to continue the illusion. At the point where the illusion becomes too expensive to maintain, they will just take down the scenery, they will pull back the curtains, they will move the tables and chairs out of the way and you will see the brick wall at the back of the theater.” - Frank Zappa

In the US, you don't pay taxes to invest. You pay taxes on capital gains (profits) when you sell and can deduct capital losses.

Yes and this is where I want to find out more.

When I first read what Ron tucker said that this is what I gathered then when I read the actual ATO draft directly from the ATO it is not said that way which leads me to beleive there is miss interpretation here, he possibly meant it for businesses, But I want to get more clarification on this.

This maybe the begining of a war for our freedom... can we become a free people once again?  Only time will tell.

Here's Ron Tucker's interpretation, which agrees with mine:

"The way they've chosen to interpret how it should be applied is unfortunately very stifling for emerging Australian digital currency businesses and the industry as a whole," said Ron Tucker, the chair of the Australian Digital Currency Commerce Association and a partner at BitTrade, a digital currency trading service.

"It's essentially a double GST effect. It is adding 10 per cent tax on the entire supply of the Bitcoin.

"So if the Bitcoin is worth $500 today, you'll be paying 10 per cent tax on that, as well as the GST on the service or commission fees that the Bitcoin companies may charge."

Mr Tucker said the ATO's view on Bitcoin will send business either offshore or underground.

"I've already heard from a number of our members that they are in the process of – or already have or will be – setting up shop offshore," he said.

source: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-08-20/bitcoin-will-not-be-taxed-as-money-ato-says/5683974

Well then that removes ALL the normal consumers out of Bitcoin, in all of Australia if thats how it stands... This Guys OzzyCoin on reddit seems like he says no, only if you are a business buying from an exchange you are to pay GST on it, not if your buying it for personal use and non-business, Exchanges will have to create 2 Buying options, 1 = Business Buys 2 = Individual Personal buys

If he is correct, then the ruling is actually pretty good

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2e1wpm/ato_tax_ruling_australia/

Check ozzycoin comments


Again - If normal people have to pay 10% GST just to get into bitcoin ROFL, there is no way in HELL ANYONE would be stupid enough to buy bitcoin, at the moment it is already a hassle to get Bitcoin, and ontop of the hassle charge 10% Ontop and then again when you purchase a product from australia ROFLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL Are these tax idiots dreamin or what? I cannot beleive that is the case for normal users, they basically just spat in the face of everyone in australia and said "YEH!! you want to buy BITCOIN?? OK DO IT , But you  going to GIVE US 10% Twice if you do , So suck a big fat one HA HA HA

I'm not concerned about these regulations at all. As countries start coming out with more and more ridiculous tax and AML/KYC regulations, I just add them to my list of countries to avoid. There will always be friendly jurisdictions where they still care about taking in business as opposed to bending over backwards for bureaucrats.

Australia no good anymore? No problem, just move your balances over to Hong Kong. Hong Kong goes down? Time to deal with Panamanian exchanges. 

Yes, as it stands you would pay 10% GST. If you buy 1 bitcoin at an exchange rate of AUD$500, your total price would be AUD$550.

wait a minute, I might have read things wrong and my feelings are changing to , Thank goodness!


Let me get this straight, as per comments on reddit and all over the place.

I am a normal average Joe, I do not run a business and I only want to purchase Bitcoin to buy some products from NewEgg ....

I visit Coinjar.com, Cointree.com or igot.com as an Example, I then log into my account and say I want to purchase 2 x BTC for personal use.

Do these Exchanges Charge me 10% GST on these bitcoin that I buy of them? (Remember I am only a person of the street wanting to buy some BTC so I can purchase some online goods for Under $10,000) <<< This is the golden make or break question.

rules and laws can change in the future - in both ways.

It seems to me they are clumsily trying to force a square peg into a round hole with potentially ugly consequences.

Well, you can't blame people for being dumb.
Shooting them is a little bit over the top.
You'd better laugh at them, and take advantage of their stupidity.