How big is Bitcoin's presence in China? - page 3.

notme

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Quote from: friedcat on March 01, 2012, 02:49:24 AM

I'm sorry the best English material I could provide is the wiki page. This link plays "neutral" by mixing the Chinese government's opinion into it. There are tons of articles and evidences in Chinese to argue for her innocence.

Most of people in China, including her loaners, don't believe she's guilty. The state machine's conclusion, that she had no ability to pay back in the future, from the fact that half the money was missing, was arbitrary. And more importantly, the whole dispute was a topic of civil law. She should by no means have been considered as a criminal anyway.

Thank you for the clarification.

friedcat

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Quote from: CIYAM on March 01, 2012, 04:11:19 AM

Quote from: friedcat on March 01, 2012, 04:05:17 AM

In the short term, I think, geeks and speculators would be the first ones who are attracted to Bitcoin in China, just like any other places of the world.

Very true - also I wouldn't be surprised at all if computers at some "wang ba's" (internet cafe/bars that are popular for gaming) are mining like crazy when not being used by customers (or perhaps even used by customers to do so).

I could confirm this. Some of the miners I know are owners of internet bars. The rest of miners fall into these three categories.

1. Employees of government offices, who have access to free computers and free electricity.
2. Former professional wireless password crackers re-using their existing GPUs.
3. Serious miners (>10G) paying for their own electricity, most of which entered mining in the last June.

CIYAM

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Quote from: friedcat on March 01, 2012, 04:05:17 AM

In the short term, I think, geeks and speculators would be the first ones who are attracted to Bitcoin in China, just like any other places of the world.

Very true - also I wouldn't be surprised at all if computers at some "wang ba's" (internet cafe/bars that are popular for gaming) are mining like crazy when not being used by customers (or perhaps even used by customers to do so).

friedcat

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Quote from: CIYAM on March 01, 2012, 03:41:29 AM

Quote from: friedcat on March 01, 2012, 03:37:46 AM

Evading tax by faking vouchers is not without risk. The local government may randomly punish some of them to frighten the rest.

True but for sure it is still very common (the stored value card business is still going strong I believe).

Quote from: friedcat on March 01, 2012, 03:37:46 AM

I mostly agree with you though, especially for your last paragraph. BTW how many years have you been in China? It is very uncommon for a westerner to know so many details that are more or less "underground". Grin

Have been here over 5 years now and my wife is Chinese.

5 years is indeed a long time. It's even enough for you to learn to understand most of the online Chinese materials.

In the short term, I think, geeks and speculators would be the first ones who are attracted to Bitcoin in China, just like any other places of the world.

CIYAM

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Quote from: friedcat on March 01, 2012, 03:37:46 AM

Evading tax by faking vouchers is not without risk. The local government may randomly punish some of them to frighten the rest.

True but for sure it is still very common (the stored value card business is still going strong I believe).

Quote from: friedcat on March 01, 2012, 03:37:46 AM

I mostly agree with you though, especially for your last paragraph. BTW how many years have you been in China? It is very uncommon for a westerner to know so many details that are more or less "underground". Grin

Have been here over 5 years now and my wife is Chinese.

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Quote from: CIYAM on March 01, 2012, 03:13:05 AM

Large multinationals might pay a lot of tax but most small businesses do not (ever been asked "xu yao fa piao ma?").

It is very common for an employee's salary to be officially listed as 3,500 RMB per month (no tax due on that) and then to receive an annual (or sometimes monthly) bonus in the form of either cash or stored value cards (which are anonymous for values at least up to 100,000 RMB).

Also bear in mind the very vast majority of Chinese do not work for companies at all (they work in the farms and get paid cash in hand).

Moving cash between banks can be a pain so in fact for large amounts they are often physically carried and if to another city then by train (so cost of train tickets).

I'm not saying there is no use for Bitcoin in PRC but quite a few of the commonly listed "use cases" that are very applicable to westerners (such as credit card or Paypal fees) are just not applicable in China.

Evading tax by faking vouchers is not without risk. The local government may randomly punish some of them to frighten the rest.

I mostly agree with you though, especially for your last paragraph. BTW how many years have you been in China? It is very uncommon for a westerner to know so many details that are more or less "underground". Grin

CIYAM

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Large multinationals might pay a lot of tax but most small businesses do not (ever been asked "xu yao fa piao ma?").

It is very common for an employee's salary to be officially listed as 3,500 RMB per month (no tax due on that) and then to receive an annual (or sometimes monthly) bonus in the form of either cash or stored value cards (which are anonymous for values at least up to 100,000 RMB).

Also bear in mind the very vast majority of Chinese do not work for companies at all (they work in the farms and get paid cash in hand).

Moving cash between banks can be a pain so in fact for large amounts the RMB is often physically transferred but also if you are able to find a branch of one cities local bank in another city the transfer is often free (and btw the 0.5% applies only up to a max of 50 RMB so for very large amounts it can effectively almost nothing).

I'm not saying there is no use for Bitcoin in PRC but quite a few of the commonly listed "use cases" that are very applicable to westerners (such as credit card or Paypal fees) are just not applicable in China.

friedcat

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Quote from: CIYAM on March 01, 2012, 12:52:48 AM

Without a doubt "cash is king" in PRC (you see people going in and out of the banks with hundreds of thousands of RMB in bags daily) and the amount of tax paid by most is very little (if any at all). They also have anonymous shopping center "smart cards" which are often traded and can sometimes contain tens of thousands of RMB per card.

Understand that also the cost of banking (in terms of fees) is virtually zero and the cost of making internet purchases on taobao is completely fee free (with the ability to send back or get refunds) so for the vast majority there is really nothing to be gained from Bitcoin apart from perhaps escaping inflation.

I do think that Bitcoin mining is something some internet savvy Chinese would be doing as it is quite likely that they may have access to "free electricity".

The amount of tax paid by companies is very high, including the Enterprise Income Tax (as high as 25%), and the VAT (normally 17%). The personal income tax (progressive, the maximum cap is 45%) is also pre-paid before one gets her salary. There are surely many places where people could benefit from Bitcoin.

The cost of banking is also not zero, and invoked quite a lot of complaints in the last several years. If your account is opened in city A and you want to withdraw cash in city B, you might probably pay fees (in my experience, around 0.5%). The transaction fee between different banks is also non-neglectable.

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Quote from: notme on February 29, 2012, 10:37:20 AM

Quote from: friedcat on February 29, 2012, 01:50:20 AM

Quote from: Seal on February 27, 2012, 07:57:41 PM

With the US deficit not shrinking any time soon, China looks like its going to becoming one of the world's most important economies. How big is bitcoin in China?

The volume pie chart on Bitcoincharts doesnt show CNY, but given that the country has heaps of rich folk now... this cant be right!?

With China having roots in communism and the state wanting to control everything, bitcoin in theory (being both anonymous and decentralized) would be very valuable to them.

In reality, the Chinese government is insanely afraid of the circulation of non-fiat currencies. Fundraising and financial companies in China are also highly regulated. An enterpreneur had just been sentenced to death just because she promised a high interest rate to her loaners(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wu_Ying). This is why services like Bitcoinica wouldn't exist in China for at least a while.

From the link, it looks like she did more than promise high interest... Half the money was missing by the time they arrested her. The death penalty is a bit steep, but she was guilty (and plead as such) of more than offering good interest rates.

I'm sorry the best English material I could provide is the wiki page. This link plays "neutral" by mixing the Chinese government's opinion into it. There are tons of articles and evidences in Chinese to argue for her innocence.

Most of people in China, including her loaners, don't believe she's guilty. The state machine's conclusion, that she had no ability to pay back in the future, from the fact that half the money was missing, was arbitrary. And more importantly, the whole dispute was a topic of civil law. She should by no means have been considered as a criminal anyway.

CIYAM

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Without a doubt "cash is king" in PRC (you see people going in and out of the banks with hundreds of thousands of RMB in bags daily) and the amount of tax paid by most is very little (if any at all). They also have anonymous shopping center "smart cards" which are often traded and can sometimes contain tens of thousands of RMB per card.

Understand that also the cost of banking (in terms of fees) is virtually zero and the cost of making internet purchases on taobao is completely fee free (with the ability to send back or get refunds) so for the vast majority there is really nothing to be gained from Bitcoin apart from perhaps escaping inflation.

I do think that Bitcoin mining is something some internet savvy Chinese would be doing as it is quite likely that they may have access to "free electricity".

Seal

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Quote from: friedcat on February 29, 2012, 01:50:20 AM

Quote from: Seal on February 27, 2012, 07:57:41 PM

With the US deficit not shrinking any time soon, China looks like its going to becoming one of the world's most important economies. How big is bitcoin in China?

The volume pie chart on Bitcoincharts doesnt show CNY, but given that the country has heaps of rich folk now... this cant be right!?

With China having roots in communism and the state wanting to control everything, bitcoin in theory (being both anonymous and decentralized) would be very valuable to them.

In reality, the Chinese government is insanely afraid of the circulation of non-fiat currencies. Fundraising and financial companies in China are also highly regulated. An enterpreneur had just been sentenced to death just because she promised a high interest rate to her loaners(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wu_Ying). This is why services like Bitcoinica wouldn't exist in China for at least a while.

... but thats the beauty of bitcoin, aren't those the exact same reasons why it would flourish? With all the government regulation, bitcoin's anonymity would benefit its users.

How much is the CNY regulated? Maybe bitcoin isnt popular there as the CNY is so unregulated that theres no reason to have an anonymous payment system. Although, I'm sure some would still be interested in mining.

finway

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Not Big.

notme

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Quote from: friedcat on February 29, 2012, 01:50:20 AM

Quote from: Seal on February 27, 2012, 07:57:41 PM

With the US deficit not shrinking any time soon, China looks like its going to becoming one of the world's most important economies. How big is bitcoin in China?

The volume pie chart on Bitcoincharts doesnt show CNY, but given that the country has heaps of rich folk now... this cant be right!?

With China having roots in communism and the state wanting to control everything, bitcoin in theory (being both anonymous and decentralized) would be very valuable to them.

In reality, the Chinese government is insanely afraid of the circulation of non-fiat currencies. Fundraising and financial companies in China are also highly regulated. An enterpreneur had just been sentenced to death just because she promised a high interest rate to her loaners(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wu_Ying). This is why services like Bitcoinica wouldn't exist in China for at least a while.

From the link, it looks like she did more than promise high interest... Half the money was missing by the time they arrested her. The death penalty is a bit steep, but she was guilty (and plead as such) of more than offering good interest rates.

friedcat

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Quote from: CIYAM on February 28, 2012, 11:55:01 PM

Of course that dreaded wall is a concern but at least so far I have not seen any blocking of the ports nor of the main websites (perhaps this is just because it is too small to be on the radar yet).

Indeed. But I could imagine the furious react of the government when they identify Bitcoin as a threat. They would demonize it in TVs and newspapers most of which are owned by the state. They would randomly centesimate some people for their use of Bitcoin. They would also ban the ports.

But the good part, is that I don't think the Chinese government is capable of launching a 51% attack. At least the probability is very low. They are too inefficient to do such a thing. If the hardware cost of 51% attack is X dollars. They would waste at least 100*X dollars on constructing beautiful buildings for new government employees, organizing banquets for bureaucrats, and bribing a bunch of economists and scientists to justify their deeds in the media.

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Quote from: Otoh on February 27, 2012, 08:42:02 PM

I'd imagine atm bigger in Honk Kong province but look see:

http://www.blockchain.info/nodes-globe?series=48hrs

edit: & as Honk Kong is most likely where Zhoutong will shortly incorporate Bitcoinica we may see a big growth of interest there when it's officially registered as a Ltd. Co./Inc.

Note that Hong Kong is not a province. It's a Special Administrative Region that uses the British-style common law and has a local government of which Beijing only has a limited control. A lot of things that are perfectly fine in Hong Kong are serious crimes in the rest parts of China.

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Quote from: Otoh on February 27, 2012, 08:52:15 PM

a search is your friend there, plenty of Ruskie one's if that's any help & just curious if you're Chinese what are you doing with those dreaded 4's in your user name? perhaps you're not or it's some cryptic that I haven't goxed as yet..

Chinese people don't particularly dread 4's. They just don't like to have them in celebrations very much. (I'm a Chinese and I live in China.)

friedcat

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Quote from: Seal on February 27, 2012, 07:57:41 PM

With the US deficit not shrinking any time soon, China looks like its going to becoming one of the world's most important economies. How big is bitcoin in China?

The volume pie chart on Bitcoincharts doesnt show CNY, but given that the country has heaps of rich folk now... this cant be right!?

With China having roots in communism and the state wanting to control everything, bitcoin in theory (being both anonymous and decentralized) would be very valuable to them.

In reality, the Chinese government is insanely afraid of the circulation of non-fiat currencies. Fundraising and financial companies in China are also highly regulated. An enterpreneur had just been sentenced to death just because she promised a high interest rate to her loaners(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wu_Ying). This is why services like Bitcoinica wouldn't exist in China for at least a while.

friedcat

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Quote from: Seal on February 28, 2012, 08:05:47 PM

Quote from: friedcat on February 28, 2012, 01:02:59 AM

The volume of Chinese Bitcoin exchange(www.btcchina.com) in the past 30 days is 6452.13 BTCs.

Thats one exchange, what other major exchanges are there that serve the chinese/asian market?

No one could tell the exact contribution to trading volumes in other exchanges. But I briefly
know quite a few serious miners in China. They use either btcchina or mtgox.

CIYAM

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Of course that dreaded wall is a concern but at least so far I have not seen any blocking of the ports nor of the main websites (perhaps this is just because it is too small to be on the radar yet).

finway

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Not big, because of the regulations.

Think about the Chinese GreatFireWall...

Topic: How big is Bitcoin's presence in China? - page 3. (Read 7459 times)