Topic: how businesses swindle the minimum wage employee (Read 574 times)

forget the £$5 amount.. its was just a demonstration

ok take ANY COUNTRY
take that countries minimum wage per hour and call it 100% hourly

now imagine someone told you they are paid contracted 8 hours a day, 5 days a week for 52 weeks
now also call that 100% yearly

now that someone wants to convince you that he is getting better than 100% contract.
by saying out of the 52 weeks he is paid he is only physically working 48 weeks due to paid vacation
meaning he calculates it as 108.3% for physical labour time

then you counter argue by asking him of the 8 hours a day PAY, how much TIME is he away from home to comply with businesses policy needs of his time
and he says 9.5hours

at the hourly rate that means he is paid on average, not 100% not 108% but 84.2%

now if you calculate it out
whilst he pretends in first debate he only physically is working for 8 hours for 5 days for 48 weeks (1920 hours) to get the yearly sum of 100% (2080hours pay representing time including the 4 weeks vacation). the guy does not realise he is for them 48 weeks actually in attendance at work for 2280 hours
which means the sum of 8*5*52 yearly pay is 2080
but his physical presence of 9.5*5*48 is 2280

so he is working an extra 200 hours without pay per year even while taking a vacation
that is more then one months labour unpaid. even though he thinks he is getting paid more then minimum wage. he is getting less than minimum wage

..
people on minimum wage no matter the country, no matter the denomination or amount of currency. need to realise how much these early starts, late ends and unpaid breaks that are restricted soon add up
and how much lost income it equates to.

then not imagine it as a insignificant 15mins here 15 mins there, not worth arguing over.. but instead realise its 200 hours the boss has taken from you per year

I'm not saying it's okay. Matter of fact I detest it, but can we do something about it? There's a fine line between normalizing stupid shit and actually succumbing to the powerlessness of the situation, I fell right into the powerless end of the spectrum and now people think I'm being a pedantic asshole cause "I don't do shit against the system". I hate it as much as the next guy, but I'm not so hopeful that I could change it you know what I'm saying?

In our country it's a dog eats dog world, only real solution I could provide is upskill and earn your badges, but even that would take a whole lot of effort.

I've understood what you're expressing.

I'm going further down the road saying if ppl aren't coping today when they're struggling to put food on the table & pay their bills it isn't going to be a pretty picture tomorrow when they're retired and not getting an income except their pension. Who's going to help them when they're old or can't work well. Planning today means they'll have a better chance to live tomorrow.

Employers are making problems but they're the solutions remember that. You've said ppl live on less $5 a day I've seen it where it's $5 or less a month so we know life isn't fair. The balance isn't equal when comparing typical incomes from residents in MENA to Europe or America because they've got more dispoable income & can handle expenses for living. Tax policies don't make poor ppl rich so that's another problem when the system's set to fail the poor.

What alternative do workers have, though? People need to work in order to earn money for a living. If they deny working for such rates, they will end not having anything in the end of the day. He doesn't need to work his whole life for 8$-9$ hourly, but just until something better appears on the radar. And it's through that low paying job that better opportunities will appear futurely, as this little money can proportionate him to progress on his educational life. The important is to not stay idle on something which isn't being rewarding, and to always seek for improving professionaly, until you find what really fulfills you.

i never said anything about any retirement nor bitcoin nor investing

this topic is about peoples moral/labour worth at the time of getting income..

yes people need to plan for the future to secure themselves.. but if thy are being abused at even the most basic income at the start. then they cant build from that abuse to even be able to consider securing themselves later

this is where topics then begin about not even being able to afford $£5 a day (30minutes extra pay) to DCA because they live paycheque to paycheque where all of their income is gone before the month even ends..

securing your income fairly.. even at the bottom pay limit to ensure you are getting paid for even the most basic demands of the business. is a starting point.. too many people think they should "put-up and shut up" and do nothing because they feel even a min wage job that keeps them poor is a benefit. they try too hard to justify being grateful for remaining poor and being used..
but if they cannot even survive on that income and are not even ever going to have anything spare to go towards their future.. they are not helping themselves now or in the future

(so lets talk about future)
imagine putting just that 30min extra time £$5 each day. 5 days a week 4 weeks a month (£$100) into bitcoin.
lets go with starting week of end of october 2019 -october 2020.. just one year DCA
average btc price that year £$9500
so £$100 a month = 0.01052632, over a year thats 0.12631584
they do nothing. then when 2021 ATH, they dont cash out at exact peak. but at a rational $60k/btc
they take out £$7578.95
so DCA for a year. then leave it alone for a further 9 months. that $£1,200 turns into £$7.5k
and thats just using the 30minute extra no one cares to quantify each day...

now imagine in 2022 taking that £$7.5k and re investing at £$20k/btc
at todays £$34k/btc. that $£7.5k is actually £$12.8k

if people can consider how that neglected £$5 a day of 30minutes time they ignore asking for.. they should realise how much they are harming their future by not getting full benefit of their time..


..
ok another way to think of it..(the topic)
businesses get away with it because employees dont see it. dont want to think about it or dont think its worth the debate asking for it.
imagine this. for the 48 weeks of being present at work. thats £$ a day for 48 weeks is over a year of labour.. $£1200..
now imagine you work each day and got paid every minute of the time you devote to the business.. and at the end of the year. your boss came up to you and told you that he wants you to hand him £$1200 in one lump sum right away no questions asked
would you be so lax in debating. or would you question how he can make such a demand of you

your boss wants to steal £$1200 from you per year.. which if you worked for him 2019-2020 could actually be a future theft of $£12k he has made you unable to have accumulated

is it now worth your time to consider asking to be paid fairly

This isn't another presentation to tell ppl they've got to buy Bitcoin for their retirements. Working the old way isn't going the benefit we've got to think ahead for when we're older because we can't rely on other to help.

It's like he's saying after you've included meal breaks & looked at how you're being taxed the maths changes so you're ending up not getting paid you've thought. I'm going back to the same advice you've got to invest in cryptos so it's able to help in your retirement or else you'll be living with regret when you don't have enough money to cope.

my mindset is. if someone is paid the most bottom level of pay. the employer should be apreciative of people willing to work at that low amount
EG if they are only paid 9am-6pm. the employer knowing the employee cant always be punctual or if the business needs them to start early to be briefed on days duties before customers enter. that employee should still pay the guy that extra.
(im not even going to get started on the sick-pay allowance of X days off paid, but if someone is never sick deserves to get paid a bonus)

im just saying if someone is being paid the least amount legally. they should be fairly paid for each minute they are adding benefit to the business


that said
i understand greed of capitalism that my ideals are a pipedream, businesses would always undercut their costs and not care about their staff.

i know some people think the minimum wage causes a company to think people should only be paid a low amount. where they think/dream/hope people would get paid more if this limit did not exist..

however this is not the case. before minimum wage there was MORE POVERTY, no one was paid their "worth"... companies run slave trade and employed immigrants way under the national poverty line.

the problem is not that minimum wage exists causing companies to then pay people at that amount..
the problem is that the minimum wage is too low and companies STILL underpay employees by scheming their labour time by miscounting and ignoring how much time an employee puts into the business.. EG demanded to turn up at 8:45 but only allowed to 'clock in' at 9:00
EG saying there is a no overtime policy but still demanding people volunteer to stay on after hours to achieve a business goal else risk a bad performance review or other punishment if people dont volunteer


what needs to be the solution is not to just remove the limit and dream/hope/wish businesses then pay fair worth for the employees availability
but instead fix the rules of minimum wage where if a business is going to pay that amount. then it better ensure the employee gets full pay for full time they devote to the business

Livable wage? By what standards?

We should have a different minimum age for people who live in London, for those living in Manchester for those in Dunny-on-the-Wold?
Or we should have a different livable wage for women and men since there are a ton of things women need that men don't?
And different wages for those having a kid and those not having one?

The minimum wage should not exist in the first place, it's just stupid!
Germany went 50 years without a minimum wage, they set one and nothing changed Denmark, and Finland also don't have a minimum wage while Congo has one, which one do you think it's better to work in? The minimum age is just like printing money, it sets a standard to what people can at minimum consume, triggering inflation for those products as they know everyone will still afford it, rising rent rising everything, just drop the damn thing and get paid without being stamped like a cowherd, get paid for what you're worth. Nobody afford to pay you that much more, so maybe the minimum wage is actually destroying jobs and causing more unemployment and poorer people!

Anyhow this whole topic has started because of another stupid metric, pay per hour!
How about we stop with the f* thing and stick like every normal country to a standard wage per month with extra hours being paid , extra!
So you have this jobs that you know it takes you 50-70-160-6000 hours and you get paid x!


Phil, first world problems! 
You live in a house, not 30sqm apartment, you have a car for which you pay 5000 a year!
Average house in US is 200sqm, in India is 40sqm! Divide every room of yours by 5! 
By Central European standards, the average car is about 12 years, average! For 10k so two years of your lease, you can get a BMW or VW 2 years under this average, and this is Europe, not India!

Fuel 250 a month!
So, 250 liters for nonfreedom units, gas in $0.7 per liter in Nigeria, so one would need $175 to buy the same amount of gas you do, that alone is above the minimum wage!

I agree with what you say and you are quite right but in today's business life, these are situations that should be considered normal. Most of the people work accepting these situations. Opening and closing times are very difficult to be punctual and there is no point in taking them into account if the time needed to prepare for work or to finish work is short. If you love your job you can put up with it.
You also talk about slavery at the moment but many of today's working conditions are mediocre and there are millions of people in the UK who would give anything to work. Even for low wages. Of course, it is the right of every human being to work at a humane standard of living, but unfortunately this is not the case in the world. Millions of people are working in very harsh conditions and most of those people dream of working in developed countries like the UK at any cost. So I think 15 minutes is not important.

look at for instance walmart. as a different scenario of businesses getting away with things
they make profits, o they can afford it.. but. their employees already on minimum wage are not paid for the time they spend at the workplace nor able to negotiate proper full time roles.
by walmart only offering part time roles of say 16 hours(4 days of 4 hours for instance) but if you add up the 15min start 15 min end unpaid is actually 18 hours of time not at home.. those employees labour of 18 hours paid only 16 hours. then are further subsidised by government social security to hand out 'foodstamps' and 'housing vouchers' to ensure people can survive.. simply because walmart wont give them a 40 hour shift of actual only 40 hours of labour. because it then means walmart has to pay out 'contributions' for pensions

If only wages in my country were that big. I understand it all depends on the cost of living in each country. And there maybe that amount of money is not that big, but here it is very big. In developing countries things are even worse. Many workers are even forced to continue working even though they are only paid wages that are even less than the minimum wage in this country. Due to economic factors and the factor of too many workers being disproportionate to the number of jobs. We have no choice. So we have to work outside working hours to get additional income. Somehow I seem to feel there is a big difference here. Maybe people who are in the same country as me will understand this. Sorry if it's a little out of line.

For starters - I have about 20 years of development under my belt. Worked for an employer, worked directly for a customer, ..... so I know what I'm writing about.)
I'm honestly not sure, or rather I'm completely sure that this approach can generate only the so-called "Indian code", when western companies paid hired programmers from India, and the cost of work was estimated by ... number of lines of code. As a result, for example, a loop of 10 iterations was realized by 10 IF queries with a counter check 
In a word, this is a very low-quality code. Even if it is not so, such pressure in the workflow will not allow you to think qualitatively, think through the solution and implement it with high-quality code. Can't your friend, being a good programmer, find a job with normal conditions?

Why do you have to complicate things and speaking about certain things, minimum wages should be a livable wage, that's the end of story for that, anything other than is just a reason to not raise the wages. And don't talk to me about companies not able to afford that because you can look at the their annual profits and see that they're profiting more than they should be, I think that it's time that workers start organizing and demand what they deserve from the businesses and corporations that are paying them dirt cheap, it's not enough that workers complain at the government, it's time we look at what's stopping the increase in wages which are the big businesses and corporations.

This is true. Living in a third world country is really different, and if we try to compare the minimum wage of the advanced countries to the developing countries, we can really observe a huge gap between the two. And what's more saddening about this is that the salary of a minimum wage earner is not enough to sustain their life and their families because of the good and services are also high because of the inflation. Even people who have finished their college and acquired their degrees, who are considered to be professionals are still earning a meager salary. Not only that, but there are also less opportunities for people living in the third world country. Also, what's more frustrating about this is that companies and businesses are setting a high standard when choosing an employee. High standards, an immense amount of work, and a meager salary. This is something that all workers and labors in third world countries are facing. And I think that there should be laws about this matter to protect our workers, and so that they were able to get salary which is equivalent to the work that they do.

Welcome to reality, as long as the same people remain in the status of policy-making we can't expect anything different from the current situation. As I said we can demand and raise our voices but I don't think governments will be interested in any of their people's opinion over the rich members who is behind the economies.

It doesn't mean I am supporting this but all I am saying this is the reality and we can't do much about it.

This is why there isn't really a "per hour" mindset in Turkey. We have monthly minimum wage, and a legal weekly work hour mandate. Not that its not broken, its 40 hours a week, meaning 5 times a week you go to work for 8 hours a day, that's the normal law but obviously just like anywhere else in the world, most bosses wants you to stay longer. However, it allows you to know how much you make per month beforehand, and not per hour system. This allows you to put all the time you consider travel to work as your job description as well, calculate the monthly that way and not hourly, which makes it a little bit easier for everyone involved with the work and seems to be working fine for all of us.

It is a crime of state policy that many people have to work due to financial difficulties and that working conditions in workplaces are not good. If the state were working to protect its people, no employer could deprive its employees of their rights.

Employers are generally protected by states because they create employment. There is a common belief that it is better for a person to be paid less than not to work. I do not agree with this opinion.

Modern slavery is becoming more common day by day and no precautions are taken against it.

Demand for work force is low whereas the availability of workers is high which forces workers to comply with the unfair terms of their employer or they can sit back at their homes with no pay at all. Government policies also favor the employers of most nations because they are the one who is behind the economies of every country and very few countries respect both parties and have decent policies.

Apart from that, we can't demand anything from the upper class and this is the era of modern-day slavery.

The points you give are very correct here, it cannot be denied that in jobs that we don't like, there will always be someone who replaces us to do it, yes, that's very natural, so don't ever complain about whatever job you are currently doing.  Since we started school, we have been prepared to choose whatever we want, therefore when we grow up, we must be able to choose a job that is suitable for us, we can't do anything after we grow up and can only regret all the decisions we have made at the beginning.