Min wage is an entry point job like when your in high school. It's not intended to support a lifestyle.
So get better skills and a better job. Learn how to weld, plumber, electrician and such those guys make BANK.
Nobody is swindling you, you are swindeling you expecting something for menial task. Get a skill.
Topic: how businesses swindle the minimum wage employee - page 3. (Read 563 times)
You have a good point OP. But it won't be easy in all parts of the world, especially in this time of crisis where employment is not even easy to find in many parts of the world. In my country, private companies are even starting to put into contract the minimum number of years the employee should work otherwise there will be penalties.
It's one of the reasons why I left my first job because I got a promotion but I need to sign a 5-year minimum service where I cannot dictate the location. There were also job offers that I declined even if some of them were higher because I prefer to work on my own time and place.
It is funny some people always criticize the West yet they also hope to live in the West and get a job in order to have a better life. it's not perfect but way better than most countries.
It's one of the reasons why I left my first job because I got a promotion but I need to sign a 5-year minimum service where I cannot dictate the location. There were also job offers that I declined even if some of them were higher because I prefer to work on my own time and place.
It is funny some people always criticize the West yet they also hope to live in the West and get a job in order to have a better life. it's not perfect but way better than most countries.
I get it too. People everywhere in the world face this challenge of balancing job security and personal freedom. We all want stable employment but once we accept the contract from an employer, we have to comply with their rules, given that those do not compromise the rights of the employees. This is the first time tht Ive heard a five year commitment, usually in our country, it only takes 6 months to one year that you cannot leave the job upoj employment or else you will have to pay the company back. But yeah that’s it. Who wouldn't want a better life? The West might seem appealing but I guess youre right that it has its flaws too, still, it is a good country to live in.
I honestly didn't quite get the gist of the problem 
The man made a choice, tried to prove to himself that it is so profitable for him.... So what ? Where is the problem ? Who cheated him ?
By the way, the example of personnel "tied" to man-hours of presence at the workplace, this is one part of the labor market. There are a lot of specialties where the logic of the hourly rate loses its meaning. No, I understand that Europe has long adopted a scheme with payment based on the rate per hour. This scheme is really well suited to jobs where the workflow is exactly like that. For example, store clerk, construction worker, etc.
But there are a lot of other approaches, especially in times when a lot of people work remotely, or are hired for a project, or generally as outstaff. Here the model with an hourly wage is not very effective.
I can show by the example of my employees how we work - IT specialists, system administrators, developers for specific customers for the development of their systems. The scheme is extremely simple - a fixed amount of remuneration per month, plus profile KPIs. I don't care how much time a system administrator/programmer/... sits in the office, or rather I don't even want him to sit in the office Why not ? Because working from home with quality control and or/deadlines is more efficient:
- I, as an employer, do not incur additional costs for the maintenance and upkeep of workplaces
- the employee saves about 2 hours every day for traveling/ saves money for logistics/lunch/....
- working from home where you can manage your time is a great additional motivation for employees. I do not care whether he did the work from 9 to 18, or from 13 to 23 hours. I am interested in time and quality. And the employee is motivated to provide it (in time with a given quality), because he is comfortable working conditions, and he does not want to lose his job and go to "sit for 9 hours in the office".
And most importantly, I am a supporter of the concept - work should be evaluated by the result and not by the fatigue of the performer
The man made a choice, tried to prove to himself that it is so profitable for him.... So what ? Where is the problem ? Who cheated him ?
By the way, the example of personnel "tied" to man-hours of presence at the workplace, this is one part of the labor market. There are a lot of specialties where the logic of the hourly rate loses its meaning. No, I understand that Europe has long adopted a scheme with payment based on the rate per hour. This scheme is really well suited to jobs where the workflow is exactly like that. For example, store clerk, construction worker, etc.
But there are a lot of other approaches, especially in times when a lot of people work remotely, or are hired for a project, or generally as outstaff. Here the model with an hourly wage is not very effective.
I can show by the example of my employees how we work - IT specialists, system administrators, developers for specific customers for the development of their systems. The scheme is extremely simple - a fixed amount of remuneration per month, plus profile KPIs. I don't care how much time a system administrator/programmer/... sits in the office, or rather I don't even want him to sit in the office
Why not ? Because working from home with quality control and or/deadlines is more efficient:- I, as an employer, do not incur additional costs for the maintenance and upkeep of workplaces
- the employee saves about 2 hours every day for traveling/ saves money for logistics/lunch/....
- working from home where you can manage your time is a great additional motivation for employees. I do not care whether he did the work from 9 to 18, or from 13 to 23 hours. I am interested in time and quality. And the employee is motivated to provide it (in time with a given quality), because he is comfortable working conditions, and he does not want to lose his job and go to "sit for 9 hours in the office".
And most importantly, I am a supporter of the concept - work should be evaluated by the result and not by the fatigue of the performer
This is common business practice, people already know how much they are getting fucked over by companies and all that shit, it's all a matter of choosing which master feeds you well and ties you on a longer leash, for the most part, since most of us here are minimum wage earners let's be real here, we don't get to choose who to serve, heck if that's not the case we wouldn't be out here scrambling for job interviews. In any case, systems sucks, all that shit, but we don't get to really do anything about it cause every single one of us have mouths to feed.
I say if you're not comfortable working on site, look into freelancing, but you'll be surprised to find how messed up the entry system to that world is as well.
I say if you're not comfortable working on site, look into freelancing, but you'll be surprised to find how messed up the entry system to that world is as well.
This is very common in our country but this does not mean that this should be treated as if it is okay. People dont just have much options. Its like theyre caught in this endless loop of trying to find the best way to survive and they were stuck in these jobs that barely pay enough. No one legally complains because people got bills to pay and families to take care of. So they go job hunting, hoping for something better, but it's not like there are fantastic options out there waiting for them.
People like us who are privileged enough to even have the resources in this forum are fortunate but not everyone gets the resources. So youre right, we are constantly trying to find a way to escape the struggle, but the system just keeps throwing obstacles in our path. Everyone has to keep going so kudos to us for even trying!
@OP you're correct, but do you think your opinion can change the system?
I am certain that being silent or not having an opinion is worse. Bad things shouldnt be treated as normal.
You have a good point OP. But it won't be easy in all parts of the world, especially in this time of crisis where employment is not even easy to find in many parts of the world. In my country, private companies are even starting to put into contract the minimum number of years the employee should work otherwise there will be penalties.
It's one of the reasons why I left my first job because I got a promotion but I need to sign a 5-year minimum service where I cannot dictate the location. There were also job offers that I declined even if some of them were higher because I prefer to work on my own time and place.
It is funny some people always criticize the West yet they also hope to live in the West and get a job in order to have a better life. it's not perfect but way better than most countries.
It's one of the reasons why I left my first job because I got a promotion but I need to sign a 5-year minimum service where I cannot dictate the location. There were also job offers that I declined even if some of them were higher because I prefer to work on my own time and place.
It is funny some people always criticize the West yet they also hope to live in the West and get a job in order to have a better life. it's not perfect but way better than most countries.
so folks. the gist is.. if a business requires you to be away from home and performing activities that benefit them from 8:45-6:15 make sure they pay you for all of that time ESPECIALLY if its minimum wage
That's the discussion that most of the employees have about how their employers are also invading their privacy and even their personal lives. You work based on the agreement and if it's outside the working hours, I agree that it should be paid as well but I'll choose not to get paid and I'll just ignore any inquiry that's beyond my working hours. That's better, looking for a work-life balance type of job is harder these days when most of the companies want to buy your life and family time with the minimum wage they pay you. Well, here in the Philippines minimum wage is much lower than the given on the OP since we're still a developing country but the situation is just the same on how these companies exploits employees. 
Quote
imagining being told your life was only worth £$10 an hour where they will compensate you for taking time out of your life to do things for them, under their policy.. but then not even getting £$10 an hour for your actual time spent out of your life
First and foremost, the employer doesn't pay for your TIME. He pays for your PRODUCTIVITY in that certain time frame.
Your life isn't worth 10 USD an hour. Your SKILLS are worth 10 USD on hour, or 20, or 30, or 50 USD an hour. It depends of how valued your skills are at the labor market.
Second, I agree that the employer must cover the transport costs of the employee for going from home to the job place.
Third, the problem is that many employers don't pay extra for working additional hours. Sometimes the employee works 10 hours for a day and the employer pays for 8 hours. This is where the syndicates and the government must step in and force the employers to pay for the full work, that is being done by the employees.
@OP you're correct, but do you think your opinion can change the system?
Most of employees are hopeless and they're not dare to report the businesss to the authority, since most of the businesses like that, it's already become a new normal. Reporting one business means you're going to fight with every businesses and it's nothing new for people willing to destroy someone if they give a threat for their business.
Most of employees are hopeless and they're not dare to report the businesss to the authority, since most of the businesses like that, it's already become a new normal. Reporting one business means you're going to fight with every businesses and it's nothing new for people willing to destroy someone if they give a threat for their business.
Getting $8/hours is already 4 times of minimum wage in here but set aside the currency conversion, from where I live, getting minimum wage meaning we could afford enough good meals and once a week entertainment, so $2 minimum wage in here is not that bad because the the cost of living is not that high either. But in here, for a permanent employee (non-freelance) most company also give allowance like for fuel, internet, and once a day meal, and other stuff. So the the salary we received is a net salary. But the extra hours for pre and post work hour briefing is the same, we need to give extra hour to the employers.
dont get hooked up on the number specifics of the first post.. put it in your own prospectiveyou admit your minimum wage is $2...
well imagine your contracted for 8 hours a day ($16 a day income in contract)... but physically you are away from home doing things within a business policy, where they stipulate that you have to be at the place of work by 8:45 and cannot leave until 6:15 (9.5 hours of business needs)
where the business policy/schedule does not allow you to do your own personal time chores/lifestyle for those 9.5 hours a day. meaning you are suppose to get more the $16 a day because its not actually 8 hours but 9.5 hours thus should be $19 for your time taken away from your home life
Are you talking about pounds or dollars, are you seem to keep mixing the currency signs up. Your calculation also ignores, rather foolishly I might add, that the person is getting PAID holiday - it's not four weeks off without pay like the conclusion you have ended up at. The laws around break times are partly defined to protect workers from being forced to work 8 hours straight and give them a break, although many businesses also add an extra half an hour to their benefit. Then you start coming up with hypotheticals about how much people are spending on different activities including cooking and laundry, which can be completely off track as people budget and shop differently. The minimum wage is a great thing to have, as the alternative would be even LESS money in peoples pocket if businesses forced employees to accept any wage. It's not meant to be the perfect solution and the top paying job, it is entry level wages which can just about sustain people in most parts of the UK - which you can tell is where you're really aiming this due to the amount of holiday and the pay rates. All round very poor arguments from your side.
try and read it again
i put both £$ in to articulate that the currency is not important. the scenario can apply if you are US or UK.. the actual £$# amount is not important nor needs to be exact as its just a rounded number for people to easily calculated..
the concept and context of the message was not the monetary numbers. it was the example of if # is the contract rate, but the other person thinks he is getting # * 1.083 due to vacations.. but then realises due to time spent within the business and not leisurely at home he is actually getting # * 0.82 it shows how even on the minimum people should get, they are not even getting that for their time.
the minimum wage is not a great thing when the legal amounts even by government standard are below poverty line amounts. the 'living wage' is a more higher rate that basic/unskilled work should begin at. but also people should be paid for the time taken out of their life to make a business money
when i see people THINK they are in a job offering great rewards, where they dont realise those "rewards" are the basic legal requirements. its not really rewarding, its suckers pay.. and when those same people then dont even get paid the full amount of suckers pay for their time at that basic poverty rate. its a double faceslap to them.
i do find it amusing how even people scammed out of a fair pay of even poverty amount still think its a bonus, reward that should dont be questioned. when people are doing hard work for poverty amounts and not even getting fair pay for their time. its not the business doing the employee a favour where the employee should be happy. its the business swindling its employees for the businesses benefit
Getting $8/hours is already 4 times of minimum wage in here but set aside the currency conversion, from where I live, getting minimum wage meaning we could afford enough good meals and once a week entertainment, so $2 minimum wage in here is not that bad because the the cost of living is not that high either. But in here, for a permanent employee (non-freelance) most company also give allowance like for fuel, internet, and once a day meal, and other stuff. So the the salary we received is a net salary. But the extra hours for pre and post work hour briefing is the same, we need to give extra hour to the employers.
Some might say that the details in the OP are pedantic. But honestly every little excuse just helps corporate interests.
If someone needs to work to survive then they're working class and there's no reason to adopt excuses that corporate interests make up.
Worker's rights are a very serious matter and we should be doing more to defend them collectively. In my country there are crazy labor rights violations everywhere.
For instance the law says that above 8hrs a worker should be paid overtime. But employers in Greece just EXPECT you to do 10 to 12 hour shifts in the tourist season as an employee without any extra money... And the law is ofc never enforced. In fact, our neoliberal government last year even fired the independent authority responsible for labor rights violations. If you're a worker, please organize. Don't let your country's working rights slip away like we did.
If someone needs to work to survive then they're working class and there's no reason to adopt excuses that corporate interests make up.
Worker's rights are a very serious matter and we should be doing more to defend them collectively. In my country there are crazy labor rights violations everywhere.
For instance the law says that above 8hrs a worker should be paid overtime. But employers in Greece just EXPECT you to do 10 to 12 hour shifts in the tourist season as an employee without any extra money... And the law is ofc never enforced. In fact, our neoliberal government last year even fired the independent authority responsible for labor rights violations. If you're a worker, please organize. Don't let your country's working rights slip away like we did.
i was having a discussion with someone who was talking about the pro's and cons of his minimum wage job
he told me he works for 40hours a week at ~£$10 an hour for 52 weeks. =£$20800 pretax
he then says how in some countries they do not do paid time off. and how he gets 4weeks off fully paid. and he gets into detail that if he takes his £$20.8k and divides it by 48 and then 40, he is actually earning £$10.83 an hour
and this is where i then ask him
what hours does he leave home to go to work and then get home
he tells me the store opens at 9am and closes at 6pm but he has to be there at 8:45 to brief the days needs and exits at 6:15pm once all customers have left and doors are shut officially and securely
so this is not 8 hours obviously, but instead 9 hours 30 minutes
he says the hour extra is an unpaid breaks of 1x30min and 2x 15 minutes
i say to him in those unpaid breaks does he have enough FREE time to exit the business and do some personal chores unrestricted. he says no, he has to be in the vicinity of the workplace because he will get penalised if late back from lunch and the 15min breaks are not enough time to go anywhere personally without guaranteed penalty
so i get into detail with him.
for those 48 weeks of working of 5 days of 9.5hours for $20.8k pretax = 2280 hours / £$20.8k =£$9.12 an hour
i then inform him that this amount should be for his time. where i then enquire about his other costs just to be able to work.
so he tells me he spends about £$2 in fuel per day. and the £$6 on laundry and lunch(buys instore sandwich, drink,snack deal)
so out of the £$80 a day income for 9.5 hours he is only actually paid £$72 for his time
and now he works it out. he only gets £$8.20 per hour of his time of being in the vicinity of his workplace and not at home leisurely
.. we then started to debate the details, EG saving £$4 buy prepping meals at home for £$1 instead of £$4 and doing home batched clothes washing once a week instead of £$2 a day laundry
but even with all this, the number was far far below the $10 on contract and £$10.83 he thought he was getting if he deducted vacation time from his labour time
it just goes to show how little things like a restrictive activity unpaid lunch and extra start and end unpaid time before the business opens can take money way from your real life time
imagining being told your life was only worth £$10 an hour where they will compensate you for taking time out of your life to do things for them, under their policy.. but then not even getting £$10 an hour for your actual time spent out of your life
so folks. the gist is.. if a business requires you to be away from home and performing activities that benefit them from 8:45-6:15 make sure they pay you for all of that time ESPECIALLY if its minimum wage
he told me he works for 40hours a week at ~£$10 an hour for 52 weeks. =£$20800 pretax
he then says how in some countries they do not do paid time off. and how he gets 4weeks off fully paid. and he gets into detail that if he takes his £$20.8k and divides it by 48 and then 40, he is actually earning £$10.83 an hour
and this is where i then ask him
what hours does he leave home to go to work and then get home
he tells me the store opens at 9am and closes at 6pm but he has to be there at 8:45 to brief the days needs and exits at 6:15pm once all customers have left and doors are shut officially and securely
so this is not 8 hours obviously, but instead 9 hours 30 minutes
he says the hour extra is an unpaid breaks of 1x30min and 2x 15 minutes
i say to him in those unpaid breaks does he have enough FREE time to exit the business and do some personal chores unrestricted. he says no, he has to be in the vicinity of the workplace because he will get penalised if late back from lunch and the 15min breaks are not enough time to go anywhere personally without guaranteed penalty
so i get into detail with him.
for those 48 weeks of working of 5 days of 9.5hours for $20.8k pretax = 2280 hours / £$20.8k =£$9.12 an hour
i then inform him that this amount should be for his time. where i then enquire about his other costs just to be able to work.
so he tells me he spends about £$2 in fuel per day. and the £$6 on laundry and lunch(buys instore sandwich, drink,snack deal)
so out of the £$80 a day income for 9.5 hours he is only actually paid £$72 for his time
and now he works it out. he only gets £$8.20 per hour of his time of being in the vicinity of his workplace and not at home leisurely
.. we then started to debate the details, EG saving £$4 buy prepping meals at home for £$1 instead of £$4 and doing home batched clothes washing once a week instead of £$2 a day laundry
but even with all this, the number was far far below the $10 on contract and £$10.83 he thought he was getting if he deducted vacation time from his labour time
it just goes to show how little things like a restrictive activity unpaid lunch and extra start and end unpaid time before the business opens can take money way from your real life time
imagining being told your life was only worth £$10 an hour where they will compensate you for taking time out of your life to do things for them, under their policy.. but then not even getting £$10 an hour for your actual time spent out of your life
so folks. the gist is.. if a business requires you to be away from home and performing activities that benefit them from 8:45-6:15 make sure they pay you for all of that time ESPECIALLY if its minimum wage
Are you talking about pounds or dollars, are you seem to keep mixing the currency signs up. Your calculation also ignores, rather foolishly I might add, that the person is getting PAID holiday - it's not four weeks off without pay like the conclusion you have ended up at. The laws around break times are partly defined to protect workers from being forced to work 8 hours straight and give them a break, although many businesses also add an extra half an hour to their benefit. Then you start coming up with hypotheticals about how much people are spending on different activities including cooking and laundry, which can be completely off track as people budget and shop differently. The minimum wage is a great thing to have, as the alternative would be even LESS money in peoples pocket if businesses forced employees to accept any wage. It's not meant to be the perfect solution and the top paying job, it is entry level wages which can just about sustain people in most parts of the UK - which you can tell is where you're really aiming this due to the amount of holiday and the pay rates. All round very poor arguments from your side.
That 1.5 hours is like an employee doing the extra mile to make sure the business still runs after a month and if not, boath the employee and the employer will capsize. Consider it a mutual sacrifice for the employer so that they are both going to make it.
You might be not fully right because, in this scenario, the the store owner will be the one making more money. And the employees are the ones who have to sacrifice more, they have to bear more, even if they have more burden of work on themselves. Sacrifice is mutual but not equal, good employers make mutual and equal sacrifices while bad ones don't. We should avoid bad employers and should take action against them too, but for an ordinary person, that's not even an option, because they are not aware of their rights, they should know how to talk to them and how to make them agree on their requirements or specific salary. But you are right that, both employer and employee have to spend the amount that OP has mentioned, on their daily life expenses and they both have to use that money from the earnings they both are making.
People today are just happy to have a job than evicted from their apartment because of the overdue. They are not going to mind that extra hour and half this time. Unless it means losing a meal if it's not paid.
That's so accurate, but in my thought, they should now be happy, and they are not happy, they just don't have any option to ignore a job, even if it is paying less. In our country, many youngsters are leaving the country to earn $500 a month which they cannot earn in this country and of course they have no other choice but to leave the country. so folks. the gist is.. if a business requires you to be away from home and performing activities that benefit them from 8:45-6:15 make sure they pay you for all of that time ESPECIALLY if its minimum wage
This a good and productive topic, but what about tips and bonuses, are there any,..
Well, if your friend thinks, he is still getting paid less and he can not meet his expenses then he should ask for an increment but to do that, he should have a good approach to his boss.
no tips
and no .. tips should not substitute minimum wage. tips are suppose to be a gratuity ontop of wages.. i understand some countries have a different minimum wage for cafe waitresses, but again if a business cannot support its longevity by even paying the minimum/living wage. it should not be operating
so folks. the gist is.. if a business requires you to be away from home and performing activities that benefit them from 8:45-6:15 make sure they pay you for all of that time ESPECIALLY if its minimum wage
This a good and productive topic, but what about tips and bonuses, are there any, I mean if your friend is being rewarded with tips or bonuses then after recalculating the earnings, we might reach to $10 per hour or maybe exceed it. Overall, I used to have this thought back in the previous month of September, I am a tuition teacher, and I got another batch of students to teach outside of the city and my expenses to go there were around 2k pkr (in local currency). They were paying me around 14k pkr and after deducting the fuel and other expenses, I left with around 11k Pkr. Which was also enough for the 2-hour job of teaching 4 students only. But still, I was getting less paid in comparison to the market, the rates should be around 20k pkr but the middleman who found me that job fixed the deal at 14k pkr. Well, I left it, as I can do more productive work in those 2 hours so I think I should leave it.
Well, if your friend thinks, he is still getting paid less and he can not meet his expenses then he should ask for an increment but to do that, he should have a good approach to his boss.
That 1.5 hours is like an employee doing the extra mile to make sure the business still runs after a month and if not, boath the employee and the employer will capsize. Consider it a mutual sacrifice for the employer so that they are both going to make it.
People today are just happy to have a job than evicted from their apartment because of the overdue. They are not going to mind that extra hour and half this time. Unless it means losing a meal if it's not paid.
I agree with the op's reasoning, but I'd also add the time of going to work and going home to the big picture. After all, a person must waste that time on the road, and it's done precisely for the purpose of working there.
It's also interesting to me that you count the wage pre-tax. I guess it's because the taxation differs in many countries based on circumstances. In my country the wage is always discussed post-tax because the employer collects the tax on behalf of the employees, and the taxes are not flexible, so it's usually the same rate for everyone.
That being said, £10 or even the adjusted £8.2 per hour is considered a very decent payment per hour in my country, well above the minimum wage of around £1 per hour post-tax. So yeah, I do believe that should be accounted for as well. And, needless to say, everything is not 10 times less expensive here. The difference overall is around 2.5 times.
It's also interesting to me that you count the wage pre-tax. I guess it's because the taxation differs in many countries based on circumstances. In my country the wage is always discussed post-tax because the employer collects the tax on behalf of the employees, and the taxes are not flexible, so it's usually the same rate for everyone.
That being said, £10 or even the adjusted £8.2 per hour is considered a very decent payment per hour in my country, well above the minimum wage of around £1 per hour post-tax. So yeah, I do believe that should be accounted for as well. And, needless to say, everything is not 10 times less expensive here. The difference overall is around 2.5 times.
Imagine someone not getting paid after all his works and it is not based on hourly rate instead it's a fixed amount that you get every month. £$20.8k? Imagine a guy from a Third World country getting this job. It will be life-changing for him. But I don't think the comparison should be logical. You are getting paid higher also you are paying higher for everything. On the other hand, in a Third World country you are getting paid less but you are also paying less compared to first world country.
If I get paid $200 a month I would hesitate to pay $50 for bills. But in a country where I am getting paid thousands of dollars $100 bill won't matter that much. So the problem varies from country to country and their economic situation.
Coming to the main point of the OP. If he is okay with what he is getting and living a decent life then that 1.5 hour won't matter that much. He's happy with his life, so why make it complicated? If you start to think that every hour of your life counts, or it is valuable and you should get paid for that, then that's not right. Be happy with what you are getting right now. You may not have it in the future.
If I get paid $200 a month I would hesitate to pay $50 for bills. But in a country where I am getting paid thousands of dollars $100 bill won't matter that much. So the problem varies from country to country and their economic situation.
Coming to the main point of the OP. If he is okay with what he is getting and living a decent life then that 1.5 hour won't matter that much. He's happy with his life, so why make it complicated? If you start to think that every hour of your life counts, or it is valuable and you should get paid for that, then that's not right. Be happy with what you are getting right now. You may not have it in the future.
With the rate of how inflation had affected so many part of the economy, we cannot concluded that minimum wages is the best offer to help lives dependencies on the economy considering those that are not self employed, it has been an hacculian task for one to earn enough through the effect of inflation when the minimum wage on each job offered is not increasing, some are not even paying the required minimum wage on their employees right before the inflation got to this far, employees are the ones suffering the cause while business owners aren't doing anything about it.
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