I much more interesting way to interpret this question is, if the value of the dollar fell 10% in almost one go against the Euro & GBP etc, would the value of bitcoin also fall a similar amount against those currencies? It's time the Bitcoin wasn't only priced in USD. FOr me, my costs are priced in USD (well, Hongkong$ which is linked with us$) so I mind a lot less than I would if I lived in the UK.
So how about we consider the question of a USD 'collapse' being a very sudden substantial (10%) decrease against the rest of the worlds currencies rather than a total collapse. Is that's what required to stop bitcoin being so closely linked to the USD? Long gone are the days when the us$ was the obvious international currency of choice.
Topic: How can collapse of USD affect bitcoin? (Read 4563 times)
Eventually everyone is going to figure out that Bitcoin has no value outside of investment and it's going to die. Speculation of a dollar collapse affecting Bitcoin is just that, speculation.
I think the real question is...
"How will the Bitcoin collapse affect the dollar?"
I think the real question is...
"How will the Bitcoin collapse affect the dollar?"
That will be an epic deflation of prices of goods measured in dollars. The price of a big mac will be reduced from 100000000000 USD down to 79 USD.
If only something would deflate the dollar...
Eventually everyone is going to figure out that Bitcoin has no value outside of investment and it's going to die. Speculation of a dollar collapse affecting Bitcoin is just that, speculation.
I think the real question is...
"How will the Bitcoin collapse affect the dollar?"
I think the real question is...
"How will the Bitcoin collapse affect the dollar?"
That will be an epic deflation of prices of goods measured in dollars. The price of a big mac will be reduced from 100000000000 USD down to 79 USD.
Eventually everyone is going to figure out that Bitcoin has no value outside of investment and it's going to die. Speculation of a dollar collapse affecting Bitcoin is just that, speculation.
I think the real question is...
"How will the Bitcoin collapse affect the dollar?"
I think the real question is...
"How will the Bitcoin collapse affect the dollar?"
Money has to be either:
Bitcoin is neither.
Bitcoin is vessel on any given unit of exchange
- Something of inherent and reliable value. (gold, silver, cigarettes, bullets)
- Unit of account backed by the authority
Bitcoin is neither.
Bitcoin is vessel on any given unit of exchange
Bitcoin is both:
Bitcoin is a ledger entry in the leading global ledger, which has an effective monopoly on access to free markets. The ability to play in that game is of inherent and reliable value. It is a unit of account backed by the authority of secp256k1/ripem160/sha256d, an authority which is more effectively and justly enforced than any human law in history.
The protocol is the vessel.
@wobber
Bitcoin is money. It has inherent value (will ever be, electricity is used to mine them, this gives it value and we cannot clone them). Authority that backs bitcoin up is the community.
Thank you to spend the time to write those words
@Erdogan
You are right
Bitcoin is money. It has inherent value (will ever be, electricity is used to mine them, this gives it value and we cannot clone them). Authority that backs bitcoin up is the community.
Thank you to spend the time to write those words
@Erdogan
You are right
Oh, and can I still use that electricity. Can I take one Bitcoin and turn it into so many watts of electrical power?
You can buy electric power with bitcoin, but you can not squeeze out the electricity used to mine it. Production of coins have a cost, but no direct use value - so what? The value of the system to the world trade can be epic. Not that I care too much, I am interested in what is in it for me, but it is sometimes good to know that my rational selfish actions are not destructive to society.
Oh, and can I still use that electricity. Can I take one Bitcoin and turn it into so many watts of electrical power?
That's what I do, every month when I pay my utility bill, so yes, in fact you can. About 6mwh per btc, here.
@wobber
Bitcoin is money. It has inherent value (will ever be, electricity is used to mine them, this gives it value and we cannot clone them). Authority that backs bitcoin up is the community.
Thank you to spend the time to write those words
@Erdogan
You are right
Bitcoin is money. It has inherent value (will ever be, electricity is used to mine them, this gives it value and we cannot clone them). Authority that backs bitcoin up is the community.
Thank you to spend the time to write those words
@Erdogan
You are right
Oh, and can I still use that electricity. Can I take one Bitcoin and turn it into so many watts of electrical power?
Money has to be either:
Bitcoin is neither.
Bitcoin is vessel on any given unit of exchange
- Something of inherent and reliable value. (gold, silver, cigarettes, bullets)
- Unit of account backed by the authority
Bitcoin is neither.
Bitcoin is vessel on any given unit of exchange
Nah. Everything has value, either direct use value or exchange value or both. Exchange value, which you also could call money value, comes from the reservation demand that the traders set out. Whatever is money, is what the traders prefer to use.
The value comes from the minds of the individuals, different for everyone.
Most things has use value, so you buy it (demand it) because you want to use it. Doesn't make a difference if you consume it right away, and the value disappears, or it is a durable good that you consume over years. The point is that you aquire it for the value it gives you, or the inherent value. It makes no sense to hoard bicycles if you want to save for your daughters education.
When something is used in indirect exchange, its value increases as a consequence. Some things have both types of value, example gold, but it is impossible to exactly define the magnitude of the use value part compared to the exchange value part.
Fiat money has only exchange value, making it pure money, a nice invention. It is not the zero inherent (use value) that is its problem, rather it is the fact that someone controls the supply irresponsibly.
With bitcoin you have the advantage of pure money (no intrinsic value) and at the same time it is not centrally controlled, so nobody can steal value from the hoarders by creating more. It is nearly perfect, clean, pure money, with only some small drawbacks compared to some other money, that can easily be fixed using added services.
tl;dr that was a rerun of the value discussion, some new users may find it interesting.
Money has to be either:
Bitcoin is neither.
Bitcoin is vessel on any given unit of exchange
- Something of inherent and reliable value. (gold, silver, cigarettes, bullets)
- Unit of account backed by the authority
Bitcoin is neither.
Bitcoin is vessel on any given unit of exchange
If you tend to be conservative in your thinking you will not be able to see progress. Bitcoin is money. It has inherent value (will ever be, electricity is used to mine them, this gives it value and we cannot clone them). Authority that backs bitcoin up is the community.
Everyone who wants USD or other currency to crash so their bitcoin stash gets more powerful, it's simply retarded.
USD crash would bring much turmoil and might make bitcoin seem a joke (that consumes too many resources)
So stop saying / wanting that.
USD crash would bring much turmoil and might make bitcoin seem a joke (that consumes too many resources)
So stop saying / wanting that.
The world will see many weaker currencies fail before the USD does. China and Russia seem to be getting friendly and are flirting with dropping their US T-Bills and/or dealing for oil in a currency other than the USD.
How did I know some ridiculous bulls were going to blurt out "btc will skyrocket"?
I have a banker freind who I mentioned bitcoin to. His first reaction to me was "you have 45 days to sell and get out". I was shocked and confused by the response. He then discussed with me the impending ecnomic collapse. This was 30 days ago...
I have a banker freind who I mentioned bitcoin to. His first reaction to me was "you have 45 days to sell and get out". I was shocked and confused by the response. He then discussed with me the impending ecnomic collapse. This was 30 days ago...
I doubt a financial collapse like '08/'09 would affect the price of bitcoin that much. Maybe it would lower bitcoin prices like it did to gold prices during '08/'09. We are headed for another stock market crash and a recession in the the next couple of years (and for the poor/middle class the recession is still not over) but absolutely nothing catastrophic will happen in the next few years.
It's ironic that this "banker" makes that comment about bitcoin, which was in fact born out of the 08/09 crisis (I'm referring to satoshi's famous genesis block message).
How did I know some ridiculous bulls were going to blurt out "btc will skyrocket"?
I have a banker freind who I mentioned bitcoin to. His first reaction to me was "you have 45 days to sell and get out". I was shocked and confused by the response. He then discussed with me the impending ecnomic collapse. This was 30 days ago...
I have a banker freind who I mentioned bitcoin to. His first reaction to me was "you have 45 days to sell and get out". I was shocked and confused by the response. He then discussed with me the impending ecnomic collapse. This was 30 days ago...
I doubt a financial collapse like '08/'09 would affect the price of bitcoin that much. Maybe it would lower bitcoin prices like it did to gold prices during '08/'09. We are headed for another stock market crash and a recession in the the next couple of years (and for the poor/middle class the recession is still not over) but absolutely nothing catastrophic will happen in the next few years.
2020.
USD will go down in hyperinflation, but it might be the last one standing.
Bitcoin might be too late to come as an alternative. Depends on bitcoin usage expansion and the timeframe of USD fall.
Bitcoin might be too late to come as an alternative. Depends on bitcoin usage expansion and the timeframe of USD fall.
I agree with you. A lot is riding on when exactly this complete and total collapse comes. If it comes next year bitcoin is probably screwed. If it comes decades from now, who knows what inroads cryptocurrency will have made into society. Kids these days are growing up with technology, it's not hard to imagine when they are adults could trust it just like they can trust hard assets like gold.
I don't think complete collapse is due for a while though... people are just satisfied enough that nobody is even thinking of a revolution these days. The gov't and Wall Street are playing it very smart... slowly and gradually bleed the American citizen instead of taking it all at once. You put a frog in a pan and start heating it up...
I believe collapse will happen decades from now. We have a bit of time IMO
Money has to be either:
- Something of inherent and reliable value. (gold, silver, cigarettes, bullets)
- A unit of account backed by the authority of an authority with tax raising powers.
Bitcoin is neither of those. Bitcoin is merely a vessel or potential vessel of any given unit of exchange which enough people are prepared to reliably swap for the Bitcoin. It is not about the Bitcoin, it is about what the Bitcoin can be swapped over for.
Bitcoin (or cryptocurrency in general) could fit into the first option. Like I said before it depends on the timeframe of collapse. Newer generations are more and more trusting of technology... it's not too much of a stretch to believe that 30 years from now people will be capable of considering mathematical algorithms and lines of code as "inherently valuable."
How did I know some ridiculous bulls were going to blurt out "btc will skyrocket"?
no...
Guys you are seeing the effects of the economic collapse on bitcoin already - we are in the early stages of the economic collapse, and, it is going down.
Just because btc theoretically could be used as everyone's store of value, doesn't mean it WILL. It is not big enough yet, and right now people are going to store wealth into something more historically reliable. When a crisis happens, people panic and revert back into a very oldschool state of mind. Speculative financial investments and new hightech paradigms are out. Gold, land, food, and survival gear are in.
For someone to use bitcoin as the store of value, they must first trust that it'll hold value and not collapse with the rest of the economy. With only a 4 year history there is no way to trust that this will be true, and it hasn't been tested in that type of crisis yet.
Most of btc's trading is in USD (CNY trading is mostly fake), and more importantly, most btc business/enterprise/innovation is based in the U.S., so if the U.S. or the U.S.D. collapses, it is a good case to cripple bitcoin. Bitcoin's price is held up mostly by two things, and neither of these are it being used as a store of value (like gold). It is mostly:
A) Speculator buy-ins to ride price trends.
B) The underlying businesses/ecnonomy that bitcoin is used for.
Both of these will likely suffer due to an economic collapse, and most of the support for bitcoin will be lost. This will likely outweigh those trying to use bitcoin as a store of value.
Instead of a pressure to get into bitcoin, what we have has a pressure to get OUT of bitcoin, and a reduced demand. Sure, there may be more dollars, which should theoretically raise the btc/usd ratio. The problem is, that people need ALL of these dollars. This is due to:
A) The very same inflation we're talking about
B) Needing to do extra emergency spending due to the crisis, including
1. Food/Water
2. Shelter
3. Land
4. Guns
5. Precious metals
6. Extra spending just to have fun before the apocalypse and enjoy the dollars while they still have value.
7. Arrangements to relocate to foreign countries
I have a banker freind who I mentioned bitcoin to. His first reaction to me was "you have 45 days to sell and get out". I was shocked and confused by the response. He then discussed with me the impending ecnomic collapse. This was 30 days ago...
If anyone is wonder why my sentiments have been annoyingly bearish over the past month, it is not just because of charts and squiggly lines.
no...
Guys you are seeing the effects of the economic collapse on bitcoin already - we are in the early stages of the economic collapse, and, it is going down.
Just because btc theoretically could be used as everyone's store of value, doesn't mean it WILL. It is not big enough yet, and right now people are going to store wealth into something more historically reliable. When a crisis happens, people panic and revert back into a very oldschool state of mind. Speculative financial investments and new hightech paradigms are out. Gold, land, food, and survival gear are in.
For someone to use bitcoin as the store of value, they must first trust that it'll hold value and not collapse with the rest of the economy. With only a 4 year history there is no way to trust that this will be true, and it hasn't been tested in that type of crisis yet.
Most of btc's trading is in USD (CNY trading is mostly fake), and more importantly, most btc business/enterprise/innovation is based in the U.S., so if the U.S. or the U.S.D. collapses, it is a good case to cripple bitcoin. Bitcoin's price is held up mostly by two things, and neither of these are it being used as a store of value (like gold). It is mostly:
A) Speculator buy-ins to ride price trends.
B) The underlying businesses/ecnonomy that bitcoin is used for.
Both of these will likely suffer due to an economic collapse, and most of the support for bitcoin will be lost. This will likely outweigh those trying to use bitcoin as a store of value.
Instead of a pressure to get into bitcoin, what we have has a pressure to get OUT of bitcoin, and a reduced demand. Sure, there may be more dollars, which should theoretically raise the btc/usd ratio. The problem is, that people need ALL of these dollars. This is due to:
A) The very same inflation we're talking about
B) Needing to do extra emergency spending due to the crisis, including
1. Food/Water
2. Shelter
3. Land
4. Guns
5. Precious metals
6. Extra spending just to have fun before the apocalypse and enjoy the dollars while they still have value.
7. Arrangements to relocate to foreign countries
I have a banker freind who I mentioned bitcoin to. His first reaction to me was "you have 45 days to sell and get out". I was shocked and confused by the response. He then discussed with me the impending ecnomic collapse. This was 30 days ago...
If anyone is wonder why my sentiments have been annoyingly bearish over the past month, it is not just because of charts and squiggly lines.
You have a banker friend? WTF?
How many guns and much land did you buy for the zombie apocalypse?
How did i know tera would be a negative nancy 
Don't listen to bankers you idiot. And I'll bet any amount you like that the price will not have gone to double digits when your 45 days are up.
Don't listen to bankers you idiot. And I'll bet any amount you like that the price will not have gone to double digits when your 45 days are up.
Negative Nancy = A beacon of pragmatic realism amongst a sea of naive delusionalism?
How did i know tera would be a negative nancy
Don't listen to bankers you idiot. And I'll bet any amount you like that the price will not have gone to double digits when your 45 days are up.
Don't listen to bankers you idiot. And I'll bet any amount you like that the price will not have gone to double digits when your 45 days are up.
Negative Nancy = A beacon of pragmatic realism amongst a sea of naive delusionalism?
USD will go down in hyperinflation, but it might be the last one standing.
Bitcoin might be too late to come as an alternative. Depends on bitcoin usage expansion and the timeframe of USD fall.
The PTSB (powers that shouldn't be) might think up an alternative fiat some time in the future. It could even be a centralized fiat cryptocoin.
Here is a fun fact from the money history. (I couldn't be bothered to find references for this now, do it yourself or disregard it as a fairytale). At some point in time and space, the currency was so debased (think silver coins with a low silver content), that a single coin bought almost nothing. It was custom to use a bag (purse) to hold a number of coins, and exchange the bag. The receiver would not normally open the purse to count the coins, because he knew that the next person would also not open it. Therefore the fact that the number of coins could be one or two short of the standard was not important.
This is analogous to the fact that some dollar bills are fake, but you don't check each bill thoroughly, because you know that the next guy doesn't either.
Now the point of this long story: The bitcoin network does not have to be available to everybody at all times, for bitcoin to be universally useful. Fixed amount of coins, like bills, could be created on a sheet of paper with the secret under a fold. This could be used as money, and someone accepting it could check if he wanted. Else anybody could just accept it and hope that most of his bills are loaded. The issuer could even date and sign it for later reference.
So yes, bitcoin could be useful money for everybody in case of an epic fiat fail.
The value would of course also rise epically.
Bitcoin might be too late to come as an alternative. Depends on bitcoin usage expansion and the timeframe of USD fall.
The PTSB (powers that shouldn't be) might think up an alternative fiat some time in the future. It could even be a centralized fiat cryptocoin.
Here is a fun fact from the money history. (I couldn't be bothered to find references for this now, do it yourself or disregard it as a fairytale). At some point in time and space, the currency was so debased (think silver coins with a low silver content), that a single coin bought almost nothing. It was custom to use a bag (purse) to hold a number of coins, and exchange the bag. The receiver would not normally open the purse to count the coins, because he knew that the next person would also not open it. Therefore the fact that the number of coins could be one or two short of the standard was not important.
This is analogous to the fact that some dollar bills are fake, but you don't check each bill thoroughly, because you know that the next guy doesn't either.
Now the point of this long story: The bitcoin network does not have to be available to everybody at all times, for bitcoin to be universally useful. Fixed amount of coins, like bills, could be created on a sheet of paper with the secret under a fold. This could be used as money, and someone accepting it could check if he wanted. Else anybody could just accept it and hope that most of his bills are loaded. The issuer could even date and sign it for later reference.
So yes, bitcoin could be useful money for everybody in case of an epic fiat fail.
The value would of course also rise epically.
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