Topic: How can collapse of USD affect bitcoin? - page 3. (Read 4563 times)

All of your posts, whether economic or world related, are the shizznit. Really though, i for one am glad you're around here. You give some food for thought to the kool-aid heads.

1. So BTC value isn't currently influenced by speculation?
2. see point 1
3. Trustless? Define trustless because that statement means nothing
4. I agree there but the dollar wasn't always fractional either and it was that very function which killed it
5. what commodity? it isn't tied to anything, unless we have gold bitcoins now
6. ok, because we don't see these exchanges getting ripped off for however many btc

as far as gold goes well there are obvious benefits but I'll dispel it all in one simple statement.

In the event of a major economic collapse you all have the assumption you will be able to afford the internet and power. I'm doubting that anyone could in the event of a collapse. Once those two factors are gone, BTC dies a quick death.

 Over FIAT
=============

 - No capital control
 - No third party required for international or domestic transfers
 - Trustless system
 - Not inherently fractional
 - Favors a commodity rather than an IOU
 - Not nearly as susceptible to theft compared with carrying cash

 Over Gold/Commodity Backed
=============

 - Gold is cumbersome
 - Gold notes are fractional
 - Gold notes require trust
 - Gold is highly susceptible to theft
 - The true value of gold will be remarkably close to what it was pre-fiat (very cumbersome to carry)
 - Coinage is property of the issuing government and can be seized easily as history has shown
 - Subject to capital controls, tariffs, tolls, or any other inspection that reveals how much you are carrying
 - Regularly debased as opposed to a tax increase (it's shady to debase currency rather than increase tax but serves the same purpose)
 - The list goes on and on

Eloquently spoken! And totally correct!


In a true Dollar collapse most won't even have internet so BTC will be totally useless.

People wouldn't be able to exchange USD for BTC, so bad.

Agreed.

At one point in history, nobody would accept a national currency that wasn't backed by gold as they required more than paper promises of a government that may be overthrown, go bankrupt etc etc. Post WW2, it turned out that the US had all the gold. So then we had the Bretton Woods system, whereby the dollar was treated as gold, but without the inconvenience and the expense of having to ship around precious metal between central bank vaults. Then in the 70's the US suspended and then abolished the link between the US dollar and gold. The decade that followed seen a brutal economic recession and a massive bull market in gold, but by the 80's the world found itself still accepting the dollar which by then was linked to the US's military might and their control of global oil markets. As most here know, this is the paradigm in which we are still living although a paradigm that is becoming increasingly shaky thanks in no small part to the financial system being allowed to hi-jack the system and multiply credit (USD and other currencies backed by USD) to orders of several magnitude. Bitcoin is merely a means of speculating and digitally transferring units of USD around the world.

Money has to be either:

• Something of inherent and reliable value. (gold, silver, cigarettes, bullets)
• A unit of account backed by the authority of an authority with tax raising powers.

Bitcoin is neither of those. Bitcoin is merely a vessel or potential vessel of any given unit of exchange which enough people are prepared to reliably swap for the Bitcoin. It is not about the Bitcoin, it is about what the Bitcoin can be swapped over for.

I must respectfully disagree. Look at how much the world already reacted to a decline in the USD. We have the very recent 08-09 price movement of the USD to assess what will happen in the world. Besides, it's not simply the "USD" that you must worry about, but the fact that most of the worlds consumption occurs in America. You're missing the point entirely. A collapse of the USD, while not world stopping, will not help bitcoin. It would be like asking the heroin addict to stop cold turkey, it doesn't happen. You would have to gradually introduce something new to the system. Would bitcoin be that new substance? Only if stops being an investment tool.

The world won't stop when the USD collapses. The medium of transfer will only change form. The market is artificially manipulated right now. If the USD fails the market will assess new values for everything.

At the end of the day; the world is run by people, not dollars. Should the dollar collapse the people will still remain. Bitcoin will be valued by utility. In a world where you need to carry 5lbs of coinage to buy groceries Bitcoin will have plenty of advantages...

I think if you look at a broader picture and reference the world before the dollar you will have a better understanding of how the world will react should the dollar collapse.

beads and feathers were replaced so that everyone could have a fair shake in the market... not everyone was a hunter so not everyone could get the goods.

What are these amazing advantages you speak of?

I think some of you have a gross misunderstanding of things psychologically. The crash of the USD would not only kill bitcoin, since it's primarily converted into USD to begin with, it would kill virtually every other economy on the Earth. Most of you are overlooking the very obvious fact, the world is tied to the USD.

1. USD tanks... suddenly Americans have lost purchasing power. They can no longer buy goods/services that are mostly financed by other countries. Aid to third world nations stops. Suddenly 75% of coin mining also stops because Americans cant afford energy costs. People can't afford food...

2. Lack of American investing power and consuming causes major hits to BRICK nations. BRICK nations are already suffering in near recession economies and a sudden lack of USD influx causes further depression to economies. Third world nation economies also suffer due to a lack of USD propping. People can't afford food... well people who could afford food to begin with can't afford it.

Bitcoin itself is already hugely tied to the dollar and will be for the foreseeable future. Why is that? Because Bitcoin has no use outside of the novelty. Most just don't see, that it's purely a novelty. Even those who "accept" bitcoin through one of the exchanges/store sites... are really just accepting the USD. You just don't see the go between converting the currency into USD.

Bitcoin is tied to the dollar and will be until people realize the truth. Bitcoin has no value and no use. Once people understand how to break the chains, which is to ignore the dollar completely, then Bitcoin will have real value. Bitcoin is not a medium of exchange/store of value, it's an investment tool. Anyone who thinks differently isn't looking at things for what they are. Want it to be different, then make it different.

Not exactly, the beads and feathers were replaced because they weren't useful in as many markets as the USD.

Well let's consider the alternatives... Centralized digital fiat currency won't exist at first. After an economic collapse; nobody will trust the same people who just ripped off the entire world. Banks will be shunned and the population will be fending for itself.

Gold and precious metals, bartering; commodities will come back into play in a big way. Now the biggest problem historically has been piracy of international trade. You can steal wealth from a trader because you know they have a bunch of it on-board the ship. You can raid the ship and physically steal wealth easily.

Bitcoin isn't susceptible in the same way. You can't carry it away.

The advantages of Bitcoin over fiat are amazing, but remember that fiat was also advantageous over gold. Therefore, the advantages of Bitcoin over gold are even more extreme. The issue has always been trust; financial institutions are the problem. Bitcoin will shine when fiat is gone.

A gun to your head is the only reason why paper is used. Obviously in a VOLUNTARY world, nobody would use it. Likewise nobody would use bitcoin, because it has no intrinsic value. Commodities (oil, gold, etc) in digital form would take over completely. A few years back, E-Gold (digital gold) grew wildly popular, it had millions of users before Govt shut it down. Absent Govt, you would see BILLIONS of people using some form of E-Gold/E-Oil, etc.

Bitcoin requires the existance of the State for it to thrive.

Yeah ok. If The Man turns around and declares that Bitcoin is money and from now on, everyone should pay his dues to him in Bitcoin. Then and only then will Bitcoin become money.....

.....but why would The Man want to do a thing like that?

Just wait n see. Bitcoin's purpose will be to undermine and facilitate capital flight out of crisis hit economies as the US goes about strategically undermining any economy that threatens to be left standing longer than the USD. The survival of the USD will be pivotal to the survival of Bitcoin.

z z z yourself. Money is whatever The Man says, yes. And value is whatever someone who will deal in it is. But as already noted, go read the old threads. Repetition is annoying.

ZZZzzzz

THE LEGAL AUTHORITY OF THE GOVERNMENT AND IT'S ABILITY TO TAX IT'S POPULATION!


Indian tribes used to trade beads or feathers amongst each other and use those as money because the tribe chief would reliably accept them as a show of homage to his authority (taxes). But should that chief die and be replaced by some dude who don't give two craps about beads or feathers then guess what happens?

Bitcoin is the beads. The USD is the chief.

Just try using Bitcoin for any sort of trade if the chief has stopped accepting USD.

As you say, in such a scenario Bitcoin would have to be revalued but by then there will be far better alternatives to Bitcoin and no good reason not to use one of the improved alternatives.

I think in a global fiat crisis you would be inclined to accept those lines of algorithmic code. You see; trade is an old game. International traders have always been threatened by piracy, border controls, seizure, etc... Bitcoin will be particularly useful in the post-economic collapse where the level of corruption is intensified.

I might not trade internationally, but if I know that Bitcoin is used for international trade; I'll be very inclined to accept it. Nobody will feel safe entrusting wealth to a bank in the near term and Bitcoin offers many of the benefits of a bank account.

The case of "why Bitcoin?" Bitcoin has the largest network, the most current investment, and the widest current adoption. I think it's safe to assume the current adopters are familiar with Bitcoins ability to escape capital controls, theft, counterfeit, and the list goes on.

I can see Bitcoin being very useful in the global trade arena post-fiat.

The value of bitcoin lies in bitcoin. It is digital gold. When paper money first came about most people wouldn't touch the stuff. What value does ink on a piece of paper have? You would have to be insane to accept that instead of proper money.

If fiat paper went away...

Better yet, if the institution of Govt went away (i.e. a voluntary world), bitcoin would go to zero. There would be no use for it, because digitized commodities would be allowed to flourish and used worldwide. Noone in their right mind would choose a digital 'currency' backed by nothing over digital gold, for example.

It's quite ironic that the entity (govt) btc purports to fight against, would render btc useless if it went away.

The proof will be in the pudding and we shall both witness it, most likely with very different positions in relation to Bitcoin when the crunch time comes.


Precisely. Bitcoin's main use is as a vessel of value transfer. The important thing however is not the vessel, but the cargo. Otherwise there are dozens of Shit-Coins that have copied Bitcoin's concept and improved upon it in various ways, not least of all making it more streamline. In short, if the vessel was all important, then there are better alternatives around than Bitcoin, but none of the Shit-coins are carrying the value (measured in USD) that Bitcoin is carrying. If the USD becomes worthless as in it dies a death and the world is left to look for a new means of exchange, it won't be looking towards Bitcoin as Bitcoin is just a means of wealth transfer. In times of crisis you might be tempted to swap goods of value for tins of beans, silver rounds, shotgun rounds, gasoline etc, but would you be prepared to accept a few lines of algorithmic code on a USB stick? Same principle applies on an international macro scale and I am referring to a USD extinction event here, not the isolated hyperinflation of the Outer Bulgaristani Shekkel which is exactly the sort of situation that could result in lots of wealth flowing into Bitcoin, thanks to Bitcoins easy interchangeability with the USD.

I see a digital currency on the horizon for humanity alright, but it won't be Bitcoin. It will be issued by the holders of real physical wealth, perhaps it will be Gold again, and each unit will be exchangeable for so many units in weight of the agreed upon commodity. Premined, and issued to holders of specific commodity or basket of commodity who in turn will issue it to those who offer themselves in servitude in exchange for the units of account. Every transaction recorded. Zero anonymity from controllers of the system.  As far fetched as this may sound, if the dollar dies, and it's death at some point is unavoidable then whole present day monetary paradigm is finished. The world will be in crisis and screaming and begging for some sort of stability offered by an asset backed currency. So yeah, I am a believer in both gold becoming money again at some point in the future and also in the future of crypto-currency, but I believe that the event will be accompanied by a move towards the enslavement of humanity, not liberation.

Bitcoin is like you said, an excellent platform to transfer wealth. Bitcoin being the vessel of transfer is unaffected by the collapse of one or more articles of value.

Bitcoin is used to transfer wealth because it's efficient. Bitcoin will remain efficient regardless of what type of transfer it facilitates...

However, the market has been manipulated by fiat currencies. After fiat collapses we will be at square 1 again, the market will assess a new value to everything; not just Bitcoin...