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Topic: How do we deal with an internet blackout? - page 3. (Read 6791 times)

hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 1009
firstbits:1MinerQ
December 02, 2012, 08:03:27 PM
#47
does anyone else see the irony of the State being actively involved in developing the very tools that will eventually undermine the immense power they so lust?  the Internet itself was developed by the military in conjunction with academia, Tor was developed by the Dept of the Navy, and now NATO is developing the Internet in a Suitcase?  no wonder i'm so bullish on Bitcoin.

Digging their own graves. Delicious, isn't it?
I'd call it suspicious and after reading that Obama bill for meshnet hardware to support rebel com's in the event of an internet blackout... does it make sense to give away tools that could later be used against you? It only makes sense if you have something to counter that system.
It also makes sense if you're supremely confident that your own side is "right" and could never be attacked from within, or you believed that it would be so small that you have the state apparatus to deal with anything like that easily enough. The media is already well controlled so that any weirdos with conspiracy theories are immediately discredited.

The first wave of defense against Bitcoin will be to turn the public against it with media messages. My guess is that CP and Terrorism will be the two main prongs of that. I don't think they worry about mesh networks, or they won't until they are even considering shutting down the net.
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1010
December 02, 2012, 04:31:01 PM
#46
Would there be a good option for higher speeds over shorter distances?

Define higher speeds and shorter distances.  Generally speaking, the shorter distance, the higher the bandwidth that can be practially maintained.
About 500 meter to 5 kilometer distances, I live in a rural area and wondering how they could be implemented in one.


It's not difficult to create a point-to-point wifi link using beam antennas this way, if there is a line of sight.  Non-line-of-sight systems would need to be slower, require special infrastructure, require a ham license or some combination of these.  Dash7 is good to a klick, and meshes by design, but is significantly slower than wifi.  I'm still waiting for an android phone to become available with a built-in Dash7 transceiver, and then I'm upgrading.  Samsung has given me some lip service on this one, but the rest of the phone manufacters just ignore me.
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
December 02, 2012, 04:16:51 PM
#45
EDIT: Was way off topic with that, sry. Not sure on your meaning about Saddam.

Saddam was the US's tool against Iran in the Iran/Iraq War that went on for years and killed thousands of Muslims.  they supported him with all the finest weapons.  and then looked what happened.  how many trillions did we waste on invading Iraq?
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1010
December 02, 2012, 04:13:29 PM
#44
Would there be a good option for higher speeds over shorter distances?

Define higher speeds and shorter distances.  Generally speaking, the shorter distance, the higher the bandwidth that can be practially maintained.
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1010
December 02, 2012, 04:06:08 PM
#43
has there been any larger test cases for a mesh net ?

Yes, and there is an org that is doing testing of a wireless mesh WAN, although I can't think of the name just now.  I believe they are working in Arizona right now, but they already have a nationally allocated frequency band license from the FCC, so this is no fly by night operation.

Sounds like Free Network Foundation.   They have a nationwide license for 3.6 GHz  (for backhaul of a Kilometer-wide range).

Yeah, that's it.

In addition, if a link were to exclude whole blocks, the transaction traffic that bitcoin produces isn't particularly burdensome.  A classic POTS link using old modems, or simply just a pair of wires, could keep the bitcoin network from splitting.  Most of the time, even 6 blocks and hour wouldn't be much of a burden for a modem connection right now.  And many people would be surprised what modern hams can do with shortwave transcievers connected to sound cards.

In the end, a relatively small usb drive that crosses the divide every now and then would keep things from getting to far out of synch.  We tend to forget that there are other ways to move data than the Internet.
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
December 02, 2012, 03:34:57 PM
#42
does anyone else see the irony of the State being actively involved in developing the very tools that will eventually undermine the immense power they so lust?  the Internet itself was developed by the military in conjunction with academia, Tor was developed by the Dept of the Navy, and now NATO is developing the Internet in a Suitcase?  no wonder i'm so bullish on Bitcoin.

Digging their own graves. Delicious, isn't it?
I'd call it suspicious and after reading that Obama bill for meshnet hardware to support rebel com's in the event of an internet blackout... does it make sense to give away tools that could later be used against you? It only makes sense if you have something to counter that system.

have u heard of Saddam Hussein?
hero member
Activity: 763
Merit: 500
December 02, 2012, 01:45:04 PM
#41
has someone actual experience with byzantinium linux? -> http://project-byzantium.org/

I don't know how robust it actually is, but i could envision that there could be an bitcoind installed and ready to fire up.
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
December 02, 2012, 01:27:17 PM
#40
does anyone else see the irony of the State being actively involved in developing the very tools that will eventually undermine the immense power they so lust?  the Internet itself was developed by the military in conjunction with academia, Tor was developed by the Dept of the Navy, and now NATO is developing the Internet in a Suitcase?  no wonder i'm so bullish on Bitcoin.

Digging their own graves. Delicious, isn't it?

yes it is.  where can i buy one of those suitcases?  do they come with rollers?  i'll take one in red with leather.
legendary
Activity: 1316
Merit: 1005
December 02, 2012, 12:23:42 PM
#39
does anyone else see the irony of the State being actively involved in developing the very tools that will eventually undermine the immense power they so lust?  the Internet itself was developed by the military in conjunction with academia, Tor was developed by the Dept of the Navy, and now NATO is developing the Internet in a Suitcase?  no wonder i'm so bullish on Bitcoin.

Digging their own graves. Delicious, isn't it?
hero member
Activity: 836
Merit: 1007
"How do you eat an elephant? One bit at a time..."
December 02, 2012, 10:52:33 AM
#38
Here are some relevant comments as well:

What happens to bitcoin if the internet were to be controlled by the government?
http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/141j2t/what_happens_to_bitcoin_if_the_internet_were_to/

legendary
Activity: 1246
Merit: 1016
Strength in numbers
December 02, 2012, 01:35:34 AM
#37
My bitcoin? What would I do with my day and my life? Walk around and look for berries I guess, maybe fashion a slingshot and take out the fattest squirrels.

legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
December 02, 2012, 12:38:32 AM
#36
Here's  a relevant article to this discussion:

Syria's Internet Outage and the Future of Information Warfare
http://www.activistpost.com/2012/12/syrias-internet-outage-and-future-of.html



does anyone else see the irony of the State being actively involved in developing the very tools that will eventually undermine the immense power they so lust?  the Internet itself was developed by the military in conjunction with academia, Tor was developed by the Dept of the Navy, and now NATO is developing the Internet in a Suitcase?  no wonder i'm so bullish on Bitcoin.

this was a great article, as i had articulated earlier this week that the rebels, in fact, had just as much of a motive to disrupt Internet communications within Syria as the gov't.
legendary
Activity: 2506
Merit: 1010
December 01, 2012, 11:55:22 PM
#35
has there been any larger test cases for a mesh net ?

Yes, and there is an org that is doing testing of a wireless mesh WAN, although I can't think of the name just now.  I believe they are working in Arizona right now, but they already have a nationally allocated frequency band license from the FCC, so this is no fly by night operation.

Sounds like Free Network Foundation.   They have a nationwide license for 3.6 GHz  (for backhaul of a Kilometer-wide range).
They are operating a mesh in Kansas City right now.
 - http://commons.thefnf.org/index.php


Incidentally there's another recent thread with some overlap:

Bitcoin + Decentralized Internet = ?
- https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/bitcoin-decentralized-internet-127849
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1010
December 01, 2012, 11:47:09 PM
#34
It's entirely plausible to expect Internet access in a certain geographic region to be unavailable for days, possibly weeks, in the event of temporary anarchy. Everyone here understands how regulation and economic forces can devastate a society, sending it back significantly in terms of technology and standard of living.

I think the best way to deal with this is to have a small amount invested in physical precious metals, like one ounce gold and silver rounds. These are more readily spent if there's no electricity and the local currency collapses.


PM are not really a solution in the near term, as the vast majority of people have zero practical experience with silver or gold coins, in order to recognize them when they need to.  It's relatively easy to create credible fakes of gold plated tungsten while the lights still work that would fool 98%+ of the population after the lights go out.  This condition would last for months, until people began to figure out how to recognize the fakes; and until then most people simply aren't going to trust some guy with gold coins.  Silver has less of a problem here, and is useful in other ways for disinfection, etc, but most people aren't going to have need for silver anyway.  Barter items, such as common firearm caliber ammo, are better for the near term.  Bullets are already money anyway.  They are made of several commodities, are themselves useful, come in common units, are readily recognizeable to those who might wish to trade them, and any one is pretty much interchangeable with any other, and they don't rot.
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1010
December 01, 2012, 11:39:59 PM
#33
In scenarios where countries or large Geos are isolated form the rest of the Internet, I'd be concerned about which of the two blockchains will orphan the other when connectivity is restored.  

There are ways to determine if you are on the small side of a network split, but none have been implimeted in any client yet, as far as I know.
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1010
December 01, 2012, 11:38:56 PM
#32
has there been any larger test cases for a mesh net ?

Yes, and there is an org that is doing testing of a wireless mesh WAN, although I can't think of the name just now.  I believe they are working in Arizona right now, but they already have a nationally allocated frequency band license from the FCC, so this is no fly by night operation.
legendary
Activity: 1386
Merit: 1004
December 01, 2012, 11:26:35 PM
#31
Remember connection via satellite  Wink


But. isn't that even easier to blackout than any other route??? We don't put sats up the, the Governors do, and we couldn't keep 'em there cos we aren't military.

I think he's talking about the case for example if Iran's government black out the Internet for the people of Iran, then satellite would definitely be an option. Iranian government can't take down other country's satellites. Satellite companies can provide people in Iran satellite internet (though I guess you have to smuggle equipment into Iran first).


Actually they can take out satellites by jamming.  This jamming can be local on the downlink side (possible to get around) or be on the uplink side (much harder to get around). 

http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/world/iran-accused-of-jamming-satellites-300145.html

If you have good techs with equipment you can do microwave links in some areas to bridge.
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 1009
firstbits:1MinerQ
December 01, 2012, 10:36:55 PM
#30
It may be helpful to set up some standards for handling transaction verification via voice calls or radio. It's very hard to say addresses and other long strings by voice reliably.

The Electrum client uses a set of words that are standardized and readable without confusion. It might be handy to create tools for taking addresses, keys, transactions, or signatures and converting them to readable word lists that can be verbally used to verify or send trx.

I wouldn't mind adapting code and writing such tools but I'd need help to determine what's useful and what's not. So given certain scenarios people have for trying to do something by voice with no net, or even by SMS or mail, what bits of info need to be exchanged?

Having a map of what's viable to do this way, a tool for encoding the right data when needed, may just make it feasible in situations. Without having it worked out in advance it would be hard to know what to do or what is secure or even that it may be doable.
legendary
Activity: 1002
Merit: 1000
Bitcoin
December 01, 2012, 09:53:51 PM
#29
I found this : https://commotionwireless.net/[/b]]https://commotionwireless.net/

If this project mature enough and gain a lot of participant, this could be an alternative in the event of an internet blackout !

very interesting !
hero member
Activity: 868
Merit: 1000
December 01, 2012, 08:58:27 PM
#28
has there been any larger test cases for a mesh net ?
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