It’s not just something that happens with only being a programmer. I have a friend who works as a freelance writer and they face the worse. Most clients look down on people who are writers, they usually think that writing is a simple job and some of them will tell you to write thousands of words for pennies. Sometimes he wants to quit from these freelance websites , but I advise him to chill and continue till he’s able to develop his own platform.
If you have noticed, most of the clients are making use of these freelance websites and that’s another problem. And like you have said; there are always people especially from Asia that are ready to accept those low rates, and they are a competition. That makes clients feel like they can get high demands for nothing.
Try to be checking out LinkedIn jobs, there are some interesting jobs that are being posted there, and jobs you will get from there will pay more than these freelance websites.
Topic: How freelancing websites killed design and developement bussinesses ... - page 3. (Read 731 times)
September 22, 2020, 07:39:03 AM
September 21, 2020, 09:37:44 PM
was i wrong ? because i thought that its the freelance sites were got killed by design and development businesss / services . you know business that offers more than one service and are run by more than one people or they have like a team .
they present them selves well and they look verry professional . its hard to compete on them if your only a single individual that have a limited skill . to the hirer's , lets support freelance sites sometimes or free lance individuals
they present them selves well and they look verry professional . its hard to compete on them if your only a single individual that have a limited skill . to the hirer's , lets support freelance sites sometimes or free lance individuals
September 21, 2020, 08:08:16 PM
True enough. Most people are ignorant and require the weirdest ideas from developers, they take a look at the best programming language out there and ask to use that to create their system, yet they completely do not understand that what they want is most often not really needed or just makes making it a lot more complicated. It's almost pretty similar to how the artist's side goes on, artists go unpaid mostly because those that hire them to think that they just need a few hours to work on it, so why they should pay them more than $100 per work? It's pretty stupid.
Though I do think that Freelancing websites are actually helpful instead, not killing them. It's probably those that hire freelancers that are making life difficult for most, mostly due to ignorance. Though I do still think and agree that underpaid services are a thing, I don't really know if it regulated the price in the US, but it didn't really help in actually regulating in the Asian side, since most are rather ignorant and just accept businesses as is, and they basically let themselves get taken advantage of.
Though I do think that Freelancing websites are actually helpful instead, not killing them. It's probably those that hire freelancers that are making life difficult for most, mostly due to ignorance. Though I do still think and agree that underpaid services are a thing, I don't really know if it regulated the price in the US, but it didn't really help in actually regulating in the Asian side, since most are rather ignorant and just accept businesses as is, and they basically let themselves get taken advantage of.
September 21, 2020, 06:32:44 PM
Number 2 Reason
Asian competition that is willing to accept rates like that
already a good shot for those people who do live on 3rd world countries but you can really expect that the work wont really be the same compared to those who are experienced or veteran ones.This isnt something new
thats why competition is really high and employers do most likely to choose which is the lowest bid but there are still who dont care about being too expensive as long they would able to get an excellent work
from someone who are on expertise.
September 21, 2020, 05:00:01 PM
Number 2 Reason
Asian competition that is willing to accept rates like that
September 21, 2020, 03:34:57 PM
Upwork use to be good but they take 20% and people demand you to just 2 hours of hoops before they will hire you it's horrible. What an abuse.
Someone needs to make a reasonable platform with 3 to 4% with little waste of time maybe short test project and they like you they give you more not waste 2 hours to give you 40 Euros of work that takes you a day to finish then they want 20 fixes.
Someone needs to make a reasonable platform with 3 to 4% with little waste of time maybe short test project and they like you they give you more not waste 2 hours to give you 40 Euros of work that takes you a day to finish then they want 20 fixes.
September 21, 2020, 02:40:22 PM
It really sucks to lose 50% of your income right away but those websites are only good when you are a newbie worker while getting the hang of how things work in real life or getting to know what clients want or how to deal with them in general.
After you start completing a few jobs successfully, you should look for a more serious job (if that's your thing) or start building up your own network and find customers by your own.
If you can find 2 clients in one month and keep the fees to yourself and you find 5 clients through the freelancing website but lose 40% of your income to the fees, which one would you choose?
I'd say go for those 2 clients that you caught yourself because in the long run you are going to have to build your own network or else you'll work as a slave for that freelancing platform forever.
When you are not able to catch your own fish, you can always go back to the fish store.
You are also bitching about the low rate workers.
The only way to get out of that race to the bottom kind of situation is by increasing your work quality.
When your product is better than anyone else's, then you can set any price you want for your work.
This is the mentality, those places are not really meant to be used for the long term, they are a stepping stone, yes the pay is crap and those that post jobs on those platforms are looking for something to be done at an incredibly cheap price, but that is not the point, the point is to increase your experience and gain a few jobs, that way then when you are trying to get clients on your own you have in your portfolio your previous jobs and those that hired you before can recommend your job, it just the old idea of starting from the bottom of the food chain brought to the 21th century. After you start completing a few jobs successfully, you should look for a more serious job (if that's your thing) or start building up your own network and find customers by your own.
If you can find 2 clients in one month and keep the fees to yourself and you find 5 clients through the freelancing website but lose 40% of your income to the fees, which one would you choose?
I'd say go for those 2 clients that you caught yourself because in the long run you are going to have to build your own network or else you'll work as a slave for that freelancing platform forever.
When you are not able to catch your own fish, you can always go back to the fish store.
You are also bitching about the low rate workers.
The only way to get out of that race to the bottom kind of situation is by increasing your work quality.
When your product is better than anyone else's, then you can set any price you want for your work.
September 21, 2020, 02:30:45 PM
I somewhat agree to your points but not entirely. Freelancing websites are actually bringing more opportunities to the freelancers instead of killing it. What killing the market is high competition.
As I understood, it is not the competition he is complaining about (at least not completely), It is the fees.
When you do a $100 job and end up with $50 after everybody took their cut, that indeed sucks.
In reality, you got paid $50 for a $100 job.
(As I explained above, if those websites didn't exit, maybe the OP wouldn't have gotten any jobs at all so there is that.)
September 21, 2020, 11:57:44 AM
I somewhat agree to your points but not entirely. Freelancing websites are actually bringing more opportunities to the freelancers instead of killing it. What killing the market is high competition. If you look 10 years back, there was only a handful of freelancing websites with limited numbers of freelancers available. Nowadays, there are hundreds of them available at any point of time.
As per the rule of economy, the price always starts dropping whenever there is competition. That's exactly what is happening with freelancing economy as well. It worsened when Chinese and Indian people started entering this market, it dropped the price ever further because their cost of living is much cheaper than any western country.
It's all about competition nowadays which is killing the price. Websites are rather helping to bring more jobs to the freelancers. That's from my personal experience but you may have a different experience altogether.
As per the rule of economy, the price always starts dropping whenever there is competition. That's exactly what is happening with freelancing economy as well. It worsened when Chinese and Indian people started entering this market, it dropped the price ever further because their cost of living is much cheaper than any western country.
It's all about competition nowadays which is killing the price. Websites are rather helping to bring more jobs to the freelancers. That's from my personal experience but you may have a different experience altogether.
September 21, 2020, 11:10:46 AM
i disagree and i'll give you one reason: they created competition and prevented big corporations from asking for ridiculous amount of money for doing a simple job.
now there are competing developers who are sometimes even more skilled and can do a much better job at a much more reasonable prices. funny enough that forced those big companies to lower their prices to realistic ones too.
now you shouldn't confuse freelancing with some newbies who know very little of some subject like website design trying to get a job and make some money. it is up to you to hire the ones who can do a good job by looking at their skills and checking their history.
now there are competing developers who are sometimes even more skilled and can do a much better job at a much more reasonable prices. funny enough that forced those big companies to lower their prices to realistic ones too.
now you shouldn't confuse freelancing with some newbies who know very little of some subject like website design trying to get a job and make some money. it is up to you to hire the ones who can do a good job by looking at their skills and checking their history.
September 21, 2020, 06:09:07 AM
See for most of the people websites like this provide them with job opportunities which are very few if we take everything into consideration. You can apply in numerous jobs and you can be overqualified , but the company due to the COVID are hiring person who is okay working with the lowest wage possible.
This is online jobs that we are talking about but the offline ones are even worse. People are working 9-5 for even 100$.
If someone is available to earn this much online they think it's a blessing , but in reality they are being underpaid but they have nothing to compare it to.
People are desperate and these companies are using that. The upwork is a good option for sure but we need to understand that it's not good for the developing and underdeveloped countries , they are paid 1/2 of even 1/3rd of what they should be paid.
This is online jobs that we are talking about but the offline ones are even worse. People are working 9-5 for even 100$.
If someone is available to earn this much online they think it's a blessing , but in reality they are being underpaid but they have nothing to compare it to.
People are desperate and these companies are using that. The upwork is a good option for sure but we need to understand that it's not good for the developing and underdeveloped countries , they are paid 1/2 of even 1/3rd of what they should be paid.
September 20, 2020, 06:00:49 PM
But looking at freelance website such as upwork, formerly known as odesk, freelancers are still making good money even if we are in a pandemic. But I would agree that there are nationalities lowering the pay because they want to get the job, but it is a disaster for some company to hire them because the service will be low grade as lousy as well. So if you are a company that are using freelancing websites to look for employee, then hire someone with good history and offer them competitive salaries.
September 20, 2020, 05:48:06 PM
IT sector, especially software development, is booming nearly any country, and there's absolutely no signs of freelancing outspacing it. Just open your local job hunting site and see how many job offers for programmers there is. Freelancers can't develop a big project in short timeframe, and assembling a team of freelancers is just not as efficient as just having a company to work on the product, who already have a well-managed team.
September 20, 2020, 01:12:06 PM
Web developers are asking for huge amount of money for tiny html/css edits. Their prices aren't fair and now they blame freelancers from all over the world because Indian guy charges 20$ instead of 600$ and they are bad, ruining their "profitable" business.
I don't get it.
Are the web devs work for free (like $5-10) or are they making a killing?
Because you all are telling a different story.
If editing a CSS file was that easy without breaking everything, then the client should do it himself/herself.
Those Indians work for dirt cheap for a reason and it is not because their country's economy suck. It is their product that sucks.
Do you ever take into account the cost of living in the respective countries? Web devs living in the US/EU ask for considerable amounts because that's the only way they can live in their society where cost of living is very high, this without taking in account the fact that when a dev charges 600$, he doesn't get 600$ in his pockets, there is taxes and a shitload of other expenses; ofcourse they are going to call devs from countries where cost of living is low "bad" because they are breaking the market by charging peanuts for their service...
If a Euro webdev asks for $600 for completing the same task where the Indian dude charges $20, then either the Euro-dev or the Indian-dev is about to scam the client.
If the Indians are willing to work for free, then maybe It is time to leave that business and move to something else.
September 20, 2020, 12:55:31 PM
Web developers are asking for huge amount of money for tiny html/css edits. Their prices aren't fair and now they blame freelancers from all over the world because Indian guy charges 20$ instead of 600$ and they are bad, ruining their "profitable" business.
Do you ever take into account the cost of living in the respective countries? Web devs living in the US/EU ask for considerable amounts because that's the only way they can live in their society where cost of living is very high, this without taking in account the fact that when a dev charges 600$, he doesn't get 600$ in his pockets, there is taxes and a shitload of other expenses; ofcourse they are going to call devs from countries where cost of living is low "bad" because they are breaking the market by charging peanuts for their service...
September 20, 2020, 12:41:10 PM
They didn't kill anything, they just improved things. Once upon a time, in one country (Republic of Georgia) you had to pay 50$ for pirated windows installation, then after some years price become 15$. It just takes some clicks to install windows and drivers / needed software and people were charging so much. Average salary in this country is 170$.
Web developers are asking for huge amount of money for tiny html/css edits. Their prices aren't fair and now they blame freelancers from all over the world because Indian guy charges 20$ instead of 600$ and they are bad, ruining their "profitable" business.
Web developers are asking for huge amount of money for tiny html/css edits. Their prices aren't fair and now they blame freelancers from all over the world because Indian guy charges 20$ instead of 600$ and they are bad, ruining their "profitable" business.
September 20, 2020, 11:04:12 AM
It really sucks to lose 50% of your income right away but those websites are only good when you are a newbie worker while getting the hang of how things work in real life or getting to know what clients want or how to deal with them in general.
After you start completing a few jobs successfully, you should look for a more serious job (if that's your thing) or start building up your own network and find customers by your own.
If you can find 2 clients in one month and keep the fees to yourself and you find 5 clients through the freelancing website but lose 40% of your income to the fees, which one would you choose?
I'd say go for those 2 clients that you caught yourself because in the long run you are going to have to build your own network or else you'll work as a slave for that freelancing platform forever.
When you are not able to catch your own fish, you can always go back to the fish store.
You are also bitching about the low rate workers.
The only way to get out of that race to the bottom kind of situation is by increasing your work quality.
When your product is better than anyone else's, then you can set any price you want for your work.
After you start completing a few jobs successfully, you should look for a more serious job (if that's your thing) or start building up your own network and find customers by your own.
If you can find 2 clients in one month and keep the fees to yourself and you find 5 clients through the freelancing website but lose 40% of your income to the fees, which one would you choose?
I'd say go for those 2 clients that you caught yourself because in the long run you are going to have to build your own network or else you'll work as a slave for that freelancing platform forever.
When you are not able to catch your own fish, you can always go back to the fish store.
You are also bitching about the low rate workers.
The only way to get out of that race to the bottom kind of situation is by increasing your work quality.
When your product is better than anyone else's, then you can set any price you want for your work.
September 20, 2020, 10:50:36 AM
I agree.
That's why it's more worthy to accept proper proposal foe this job. For example, if they are really willing to pay then they have to do it in a professional way, like by posting it on social media about the qualifications needed of a programmer they need to build their website and of course the rates must be paid per hour.
In reddit, the lowest rate that I've seen in making a website is $50 per hour, depends on a company I guess.
That's why it's more worthy to accept proper proposal foe this job. For example, if they are really willing to pay then they have to do it in a professional way, like by posting it on social media about the qualifications needed of a programmer they need to build their website and of course the rates must be paid per hour.
In reddit, the lowest rate that I've seen in making a website is $50 per hour, depends on a company I guess.
September 19, 2020, 04:47:19 AM
Have you noticed this days that there are are a lot of freelancing websites begging you to join their site as developer or begging people that need programming / design services to use their websites ( lot's of google ads )
Here is why i don't use freelancing websites as a programmer / designer:
Number 1 Reason :
High Fees ...
Example:
Let's say a client want's me to do a project for 100 usd ,that takes 1-2 days to do
10-20 % out of the 100 usd is lost as commissions
Then paypal or cryto exchange charges another 10% fee + withdraw fee etc
Then after bank wants it's cut also of 1-2%
And after you are left with 68 usd ,now you got to pay the tax man he takes another 10%-30% (depending on your country) out that 68 usd
Now you will be left with around 50 usd
So for 1 -2 day of work you get payed 50 usd
50 usd / 16 hours = 3.125 usd / hour
For european or north american standards ...3.125 / hour is lower then even a cleaning toilets job salary ...
Number 2 Reason
Asian competition that is willing to accept rates like that
Number 3 Reason
You got to sign up on a lot of freelancing websites ,and to reach the minimum withdraw limit it takes time ...your money is stuck with them for a very very long time
Number 4 Reason
iOs 100 usd fee ,adobe monthly fee ,hosting fees ,annual domain fees,internet bill ,electricity bill and living costs
Number 5 Reason
People wants you to build projects that cost 100k - millions of USD for 100-500 usd ,as they don't understand how hard it is to build them
To build a big project you got to scale up
You start small and if project is successful you scale up and you add new feature .
Some people just want to build something like McDonalds with 100 usd ... that is impossible.
Number 6 reason
Some people think that it easy what we do as developer and A.I. ,blockchain development is a walk in the park ,as this days A.I. ,Quantum computers ,Blockchains are cool
Number 7 reason
Contests
Freelancing websites allow users to create contests for almost anything ...i even seen a contest asking people to build an online casino for 2000 usd
Number 8 Reason
People want to build projects with the wrong technology / framework
They ask you to build platforms with wordpress or blogs with node.js/react etc ...
Number 9 Reason
People ask you to manage/webmaster their project ,thinking that they are the only client and that doing webmaster work is included in price of project.
And many more reasons
Programming / Design Business has become a very low pay biz and very stressful ...
Here is why i don't use freelancing websites as a programmer / designer:
Number 1 Reason :
High Fees ...
Example:
Let's say a client want's me to do a project for 100 usd ,that takes 1-2 days to do
10-20 % out of the 100 usd is lost as commissions
Then paypal or cryto exchange charges another 10% fee + withdraw fee etc
Then after bank wants it's cut also of 1-2%
And after you are left with 68 usd ,now you got to pay the tax man he takes another 10%-30% (depending on your country) out that 68 usd
Now you will be left with around 50 usd
So for 1 -2 day of work you get payed 50 usd
50 usd / 16 hours = 3.125 usd / hour
For european or north american standards ...3.125 / hour is lower then even a cleaning toilets job salary ...
Number 2 Reason
Asian competition that is willing to accept rates like that
Number 3 Reason
You got to sign up on a lot of freelancing websites ,and to reach the minimum withdraw limit it takes time ...your money is stuck with them for a very very long time
Number 4 Reason
iOs 100 usd fee ,adobe monthly fee ,hosting fees ,annual domain fees,internet bill ,electricity bill and living costs
Number 5 Reason
People wants you to build projects that cost 100k - millions of USD for 100-500 usd ,as they don't understand how hard it is to build them
To build a big project you got to scale up
You start small and if project is successful you scale up and you add new feature .
Some people just want to build something like McDonalds with 100 usd ... that is impossible.
Number 6 reason
Some people think that it easy what we do as developer and A.I. ,blockchain development is a walk in the park ,as this days A.I. ,Quantum computers ,Blockchains are cool
Number 7 reason
Contests
Freelancing websites allow users to create contests for almost anything ...i even seen a contest asking people to build an online casino for 2000 usd
Number 8 Reason
People want to build projects with the wrong technology / framework
They ask you to build platforms with wordpress or blogs with node.js/react etc ...
Number 9 Reason
People ask you to manage/webmaster their project ,thinking that they are the only client and that doing webmaster work is included in price of project.
And many more reasons
Programming / Design Business has become a very low pay biz and very stressful ...
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