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Topic: How long would it take for Anarchy to start working? (Read 16391 times)

legendary
Activity: 2562
Merit: 1071
Studies suggest that paleolithic, and even the societies of the first part of the neolithic, before the first accumulation of wealth, were egalitarian societies, probably without power structures. Even the existence of a leader isn't clear. We can't find on their homes or burials any signs of power or difference of status.

So, the question isn't if we have a hierarchic nature, in the sense that we can only live in power structured societies.

The question is if a complex, urban society, where people trade daily with other people they don't know, could functioned without power. It would be great, but I don't think so.

I think it depends on where you live. I think it'd have less of a startup in a rural area, but more so in a urban area.

The example I previously gave, Catalonia and Aragon during the Spanish Civil War, would probably fit the bill; Catalonia was a fairly well developed urban area, while Aragon was more of a rural area. Despite the absence of a central government, people still lived their lives normally, still traded with each other (and mind you, these areas aren't that small or sparsely populated), railways still got built, and so on. If they could do it with all the technological limitations of the time, I see no reason why we couldn't do better now.


to start anarchy, you need a major factor that makes people emotional, fear is what works best nowadays, and guiding people to revolutions and anarchies is the new favorite game of some, as for total anarchy that would require cutting fundamentals and fundamentals needs to a vast majority, but sadly order will come back sooner or later as it is related to the "animal" part of us we humans by nature socialize and by this same nature we tend to have hierarchy in our groups

There are a couple of things I'd like to comment about your post. First, I personally don't believe there is necessarily only one path to reach a non-hierarchical society. I'm sure many others will disagree, but one alternative to all out revolution could be incremental reforms of the existing structures; a slow and troublesome process at the best of times unfortunately, but an alternative nonetheless. Then, I guess it depends on what type of "anarchy" we're talking about here, but most types don't require you to cut fundamental needs to people. Are you sure you aren't thinking of chaos and disorder instead of anarchy (or if you will, instead of a non-hierarchical society)?

Second, it's fine if you believe that human nature will naturally lead to social hierarchies, but that isn't obvious and you can't expect others to accept it at face value; as I asked deisik, do you have examples you can use to illustrate this point, or at least a rationale to explain how you reached this conclusion?

legendary
Activity: 2562
Merit: 1071
You seem to have missed the whole point of my argument (or maybe I didn't stress it enough). Okay, one more try from another angle! Grin

All people are born different. I don't think that you will deny this, but how does this knowledge actually enlighten us? In effect this means that in the long run societies with natural inequality (due to the difference between people) will prevail over societies where artificial equality (as well as inequality) would be greater than predetermined by natural causes (since the former would be more efficient in their struggle for existence than the latter). What will make this discrepancy (excessive equality or inequality) happen doesn't actually matter (education, direct coercion, whatever); all these factors will be external in respect to natural causes... Cool

But don't take my words too superficial, people often confuse real natural inequality with what they are (or were) taught or lived with. Here I can use your own examples (slavery, constituent rights and so on), but I talk here about what really exists (and works its way despite our knowledge about this - or lack thereof) and is predetermined by nature... Cool

So, in a sense, it does necessarily follow that hierarchical societies have a natural advantage over non-hierarchical ones!  Grin

You're right, people are born different and have different abilities; sure. This is the human nature argument I alluded to in a previous post. And one flaw in that argument is that it assumes these differences must automatically be translated from people to society as a whole, while ignoring that there are gaps that you need to bridge before you can take that step. Let me try and detail a few of the reasons for why this is so:

First, the structures that are needed for a hierarchical society to function, either don't exist in a non-hierarchical society or are fundamentally different. There is no central government you can enter and use to climb the ladder of power, or enforce your interests. Worker managed and controlled companies are very different from most companies you have today. Most other structures would be decentralized. Etc..

Second, despite the differences between people in a society, you don't have people who are capable and have the opportunity to do everything; you don't have many super-humans running around (if any). What this means is that no matter how good you are in a given field, you will need others to complement your flaws elsewhere; you need other people. Looking at the previous point, in a hierarchical society you already have all the structures in place, with people already forced to fill all the roles to support you, and you just need to climb the ladder to power if you have the skill. In "horizontal" forms of organization, it's pretty hard to create any form of large scale hierarchy, coercing people left and right to fill roles they likely don't want to, and particularly, don't need to fill.

Third, "natural inequalities", social hierarchies, the workings of established power, and so on, can only account for so much; I don't want to repeat the examples I previously gave, since you can just scroll back to find them, but the social changes that were brought about can't be easily explained in these terms alone. The truth of the matter is that, regardless of what inequalities exist among people, be they wealth, access, power, genes, education, or whatever, people still struggle to change society towards greater equality, to prevent wars with people they barely have any contact with, and realistically speaking, wars they would probably not even notice in their day to day lives if not for the media, etc.. Like it or not, things like social awareness, and education as Mike Christ mentioned, hold far greater sway than the (relatively small) natural differences people might have between them and the opportunism of the few.

You see, it's not that a non-hierarchical society would need to force people to conform to some artificial level of equality; rather, these differences would still be there adding to the society, but even if abused, would still not be able to break the anarchic nature of said society.


It is rather simple why technology will save us from feudalism, and why the group taking power will ultimately end up where we are now, despite how far from it their desires are at the start, and that will happen pretty fast (provided their leaders are rational, but otherwise they wouldn't grab power in the first place). I've been talking about this two or three times already in this thread... Cool

To see why we won't descend into feudalism (at least, for a long time), it is necessary to understand why we are not in feudalism right now and don't have slavery (well, we have but why we do actually confirms why we don't have it everywhere, lol). It is not that people changed since ancient times or some moral nonsense they might tell you. The reason is quite simple and evident. Feudalism and slavery are just not economically effective at the present level of technological development compared to capitalism, so, as you may guess, if we stay at this level, there will be no slavery or feudalism... Cool

In short, the very greed and egoism of those in power would dictate them to ban slavery and switch from feudalism to capitalism! Grin

Slavery is not just manual labor, it is forced work under the threat of physical abuse. A slave working with technology is an oxymoron, lol... Cool

Someone receiving a couple of cents an hour is virtually a slave and there are many ways to control people; physical coercion is only one way and arguably, one of the least effective ones. Slavery would be just as profitable today for the jobs you can't replace with machines (or for which the replacements would still be too expensive, which is most cases). And by the way, despite the cold war propaganda, capitalism works best the least democratic the society is. Yet, despite being more profitable, we haven't descended to totalitarian states yet and depending on where you live, you might even have minimum wage and stuff.


Yes, the fact that only hierarchical societies exist still remains a fact, but as I said I don't try to clinch to it but rather look for the reasons behind in an effort to explain why this is so. And, to tell the truth, you didn't address this issue (at least, not in the way how I would like to see it addressed). What you said later can be reduced to just saying that in due course something might happen that will change the current situation (or might not, lol)... Cool

In short, you didn't provide the logic that would make the change you hope for inevitable (or at least feasible) and the facts are on my side even if you don't see the fatal logic behind them! Grin

No, I didn't say that in 200 years we will all be living in non-hierarchical societies, without exception (I'm not a soothsayer); but I did provide the reasoning for why looking at the tendencies in society, that seems to me to be the eventual outcome. Now, you might not have liked my conclusion or how I went about reaching it, but the examples I gave are real, to the point, and touch upon the facts you believe are on your side. If you just continue to ignore them and cherry pick what you want to analyze, you can't be serious about trying to understand the reasons behind how these things work.

Like I said several times now, the human nature argument is not only a defeatist argument (which is always at least a red flag in itself), but is also a line of reasoning that tends to ignore whatever doesn't fit; mainly because there is no other way for it to work. Tongue
legendary
Activity: 3514
Merit: 1280
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A slave is as important as the amount of goods/services he can produce.

So, as technology develops, productivity increases, therefore, a slave working with technology will have higher production.

As long as human labor is necessary, even to control robots, enslaving persons will make economic sense, because you will be saving probable high paid wages, since their productivity is high

Slavery is not just manual labor, it is forced work under the threat of physical abuse. A slave working with technology is an oxymoron, lol... Cool
legendary
Activity: 1455
Merit: 1033
Nothing like healthy scepticism and hard evidence
A slave is as important as the amount of goods/services he can produce.

So, as technology develops, productivity increases, therefore, a slave working with technology will have higher production.

As long as human labor is necessary, even to control robots, enslaving persons will make economic sense, because you will be saving probable high paid wages, since their productivity is high.

Slavery would rend much more income in the XX century, than in the XIX or XVIII centuries. And as you stated correctly, there is still slavery; because it makes even more economic sense today.

It ended for moral reasons.
legendary
Activity: 3514
Merit: 1280
English ⬄ Russian Translation Services
On the contrary, it ended when it would be even more economic important, because productivity was increasing thanks to technology.

I don't get what you mean. Please, explain... Cool
legendary
Activity: 1455
Merit: 1033
Nothing like healthy scepticism and hard evidence
Alright, but I still think that slavery didn't end, anywhere, for economic reasons. On the contrary, it ended when it would be even more economic important, because productivity was increasing thanks to technology.
legendary
Activity: 3514
Merit: 1280
English ⬄ Russian Translation Services
I think you changed your point and are now admitting that slavery is still economic sound, even today; so it wasn't economic reasons that ended it.

I was talking about technological advances and development that put an end to slavery in most places by making slavery economically uncompetitive (if you tried to substitute machine work with manual labor). You must have misread or misunderstood me... Cool
legendary
Activity: 1455
Merit: 1033
Nothing like healthy scepticism and hard evidence
I think you changed your point and are now admitting that slavery is still economic sound, even today; so it wasn't economic reasons that ended it.

(as you see, I'm not ignoring you, even if sometimes you are too much nationalist and could recheck some of your arguments)
legendary
Activity: 3514
Merit: 1280
English ⬄ Russian Translation Services
Sorry, but I have to disagree: as long as technology can't replace human work completely, as technology develops, productivity increases, and as this happens, slavery would be even more cost saving.

It's not by chance that industries go to where labor cost is cheaper.

For instance, "invention of the cotton gin in 1793 gave slavery a new life in the United States": http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/01/0131_030203_jubilee2_2.html

The only reason slavery ended was moral. And it was because of this that wars, international pressure or revolutions were necessary to end it.

But I accept that you argue that it was thanks to economic prosperity that some influential people had the time and inclination to start to think in moral terms.

Your answer only confirms my point (about slavery and moral). And I gave hint about that in my previous post where I said that we don't have slavery but where we do have, it throws light why we don't have it everywhere. Actually, slavery didn't end, and we can find it today where technology can't replace human work completely (according to your own words). Quite logical! Cool

"Industries go to where labor cost is cheaper". Perfect! Just where modern slavery is... And what about morality of the big guys who rule those industries ("pecunia non olet")? Grin
legendary
Activity: 1455
Merit: 1033
Nothing like healthy scepticism and hard evidence
Sorry, but I have to disagree: as long as technology can't replace human work completely, as technology develops, productivity increases, and as this happens, slavery would be even more cost saving.

It's not by chance that industries go to where labor cost is cheaper.

For instance, "invention of the cotton gin in 1793 gave slavery a new life in the United States": http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/01/0131_030203_jubilee2_2.html

The only reason slavery ended was moral. And it was because of this that wars, international pressure or revolutions were necessary to end it.

But I accept that you argue that it was thanks to economic prosperity that some influential people had the time and inclination to start to think in moral terms.
legendary
Activity: 3514
Merit: 1280
English ⬄ Russian Translation Services
If I understood correctly, your point was that in current Democracy, the big fish already rule. I answered that, even so, they have much less power than they would have in an anarchic society, that you seem to be defending.

If you write that the power vacuum would end by some group taking power, well, that is feudalism

But I'm really missing your point on how technology will save us from feudalism.

It is rather simple why technology will save us from feudalism, and why the group taking power will ultimately end up where we are now, despite how far from it their desires are at the start, and that will happen pretty fast (provided their leaders are rational, but otherwise they wouldn't grab power in the first place). I've been talking about this two or three times already in this thread... Cool

To see why we won't descend into feudalism (at least, for a long time), it is necessary to understand why we are not in feudalism right now and don't have slavery (well, we have but why we do actually confirms why we don't have it everywhere, lol). It is not that people changed since ancient times or some moral nonsense they might tell you. The reason is quite simple and evident. Feudalism and slavery are just not economically effective at the present level of technological development compared to capitalism, so, as you may guess, if we stay at this level, there will be no slavery or feudalism... Cool

In short, the very greed and egoism of those in power would dictate them to ban slavery and switch from feudalism to capitalism! Grin
legendary
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1003
You seem to have missed my point entirely. I don't deny that they (big fish) can easily take your freedom or goods (or even life for that matter) in a feudalistic system. But the power vacuum will be over pretty soon (provided there is no central power in the first place), some gang will ultimately take over and subdue other gangs. And if the society manages to keep its technological development, we will have the system not much different from what we have now (since it is most efficient from an economical point of view as of today)... Cool

If that dominant gang is a bunch of libertarians/anarchists whose beliefs overpower the beliefs of those who dominate through force and fear, you will have a far different system.  The vacuum of power is subsumed by a series of self-sovereign individuals, rather than a small minority of sociopaths brought into power by a majority of violent religious nutbags (i.e. not libertarians/anarchists) who think society could never work without coercion.

The reason why society appears to always resort to forced hierarchy is that you always use the same people of today in this future society, making it appear utopian no matter what changes are made; if you have a vanilla-chocolate swirl , but scrap it and make yourself another frozen yogurt with the same flavors, how many times would it take until you get strawberry-sherbet?  You'd always get a similar system of today in the end, because the system doesn't make the people, it's the people who make the system.  The breaking factor in this matter is the fact that "human nature" is a direct response to one's childhood: most children live in a forced-hiearchy retard-ethics microcosm, and learn to accept the same in the macrocosm.

Thus, the game of anarchy is won not through abolishing government, but to get everyone else to become disillusioned with the concept; this occurs when mankind is ready to treat children as though they were regular humans.  So, if it's anarchy one fears, they should treat their kids as horribly as possible, and ensure their neighbors do too: 100% success rate of achieving a totalitarian state or your kids' childhoods back guaranteed.

So, if you missed it: the basis of your argument is that anarchism always resorts back to our current system thus making it pointless; your argument is invalidated due to the fact that human behavior is not static: ergo, the current system is always the system the people want, and the system of tomorrow, whether monarchy or anarchy, always involves different people with different wants, just as the systems of the past reflected these alternate desires.  There is no such thing as an oppressed society, for there is never a government whose citizenry does not accept as just, except the one that's on its way out (hint hint.)
legendary
Activity: 1455
Merit: 1033
Nothing like healthy scepticism and hard evidence
If I understood correctly, your point was that in current Democracy, the big fish already rule. I answered that, even so, they have much less power than they would have in an anarchic society, that you seem to be defending.

If you write that the power vacuum would end by some group taking power, well, that is feudalism.

But I'm really missing your point on how technology will save us from feudalism.
legendary
Activity: 3514
Merit: 1280
English ⬄ Russian Translation Services
Of course, big fish have much more power than the averaged citizen, even in a Democracy.

But in democracy, they can't kill you or take your freedom or goods as easily as in a feudalistic system. Without a central power, we would end in that soon.

You seem to have missed my point entirely. I don't deny that they (big fish) can easily take your freedom or goods (or even life for that matter) in a feudalistic system. But the power vacuum will be over pretty soon (provided there is no central power in the first place), some gang will ultimately take over and subdue other gangs. And if the society manages to keep its technological development, we will have the system not much different from what we have now (since it is most efficient from an economical point of view as of today)... Cool
legendary
Activity: 1455
Merit: 1033
Nothing like healthy scepticism and hard evidence
Of course, big fish have much more power than the averaged citizen, even in a Democracy.

But in democracy, they can't kill you or take your freedom or goods as easily as in a feudalistic system. Without a central power, we would end in that soon.
legendary
Activity: 3514
Merit: 1280
English ⬄ Russian Translation Services
I understand that some people do hate coercion (I do) and, therefore, they see the government as the big leviathan like Hobbes (I don't).

But in a society with no central coercer controlled by the people, the big fishes would occupy the vacuum of power and assume it. We would end in a return to feudalism

No, we won't return to feudalism. The big fishes are already behind the state and controlling it... But you could always try to substitute the old ones with the new (at least theoretically). Feudalism or capitalism is determined by how technologically developed a society is...  Cool
hero member
Activity: 574
Merit: 500
freedomainradio.com
Anarchy does not work. People are opportunistic in nature.

People think current government is bad, but it takes many years of bad practice, corruption and general misinformed voters to get to this level.



Government is needed to enforce basic individual right and do so using law and gun with the consensus of the population.



Governments don't enforce rights, they only enforce slavery.
full member
Activity: 185
Merit: 100
Society function the way body does.

Need the body and the brain (government).
legendary
Activity: 1067
Merit: 1000
Anarchy does not work. People are opportunistic in nature.

People think current government is bad, but it takes many years of bad practice, corruption and general misinformed voters to get to this level.



Government is needed to enforce basic individual right and do so using law and gun with the consensus of the population.


hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 500
I think it depends on where you live. I think it'd have less of a startup in a rural area, but more so in a urban area.
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