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Topic: How long would it take for Anarchy to start working? - page 4. (Read 16402 times)

legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001

Its absolutely is the state enforces contracts.  The reason people don't go to court is that the parties to a contract know that the court will enforce it.  Take away that certainty and companies will break contracts at will and boast about it to shareholders.  "Yes we shafted the guy but it added to your dividend.  More bonus please!"

For example, in my headhunting days, I have seen companies fire salesmen who are on the point of closing a huge deal in order to save commission.  I recruited the replacement sales executive.  It was only by being sued by the sacked salesman that the company was forced to pay the guy.  You are deluding yourself if you think that reputation matters enough to stop people taking high paying jobs.  

Laws and courts exists because they fulfill a market need.  They would exist just as much in an anarchist society because humans will still be the same.  The only question is whether they will be under democratic control.


No state - no contract. No state - no economy. No state = anarchy = self-sufficient communities. No need for doing business with aliens there. That was the reality for 99 percent of the history of the humanity.
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.3988134

So your vision is that people exist as "self sufficient communities" without an economy.

Fine.   



legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1004

Its absolutely is the state enforces contracts.  The reason people don't go to court is that the parties to a contract know that the court will enforce it.  Take away that certainty and companies will break contracts at will and boast about it to shareholders.  "Yes we shafted the guy but it added to your dividend.  More bonus please!"

For example, in my headhunting days, I have seen companies fire salesmen who are on the point of closing a huge deal in order to save commission.  I recruited the replacement sales executive.  It was only by being sued by the sacked salesman that the company was forced to pay the guy.  You are deluding yourself if you think that reputation matters enough to stop people taking high paying jobs.  

Laws and courts exists because they fulfill a market need.  They would exist just as much in an anarchist society because humans will still be the same.  The only question is whether they will be under democratic control.


No state - no contract. No state - no economy. No state = anarchy = self-sufficient communities. No need for doing business with aliens there. That was the reality for 99 percent of the history of the humanity.
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.3988134
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
So your ideal society is one in which people get killed by "Professionals with black clothing and silenced weapons" hired by anyone who thinks they are cruel to animals.

It is not ideal society, it is society that may be better than what we have now, or at least not worse, since we have people which get killed by professionals with blue clothing, called on by anyone who thinks they are cruel to animals. Besides, it not necessary to kill. Give very stern warning to these people, maybe with warning shots, and it may be enough to give them notice that they are being watched. This is not so much possible with just calling police who may just come, investigate, and leave if they can't come into house to investigate.
...snip...

If your idea of anarchy is worthwhile, it has to offer something better than what we have now in our real lives.  You offer a society in which "Professionals with black clothing and silenced weapons" are killing people for animal cruelty and then seek to justify that by arguing its exactly how things work now.

You can prove any point if you make things up.  Why not compare your "Professionals with black clothing and silenced weapons" instant execution system with the real world in which a death sentence requires a jury and years of careful examination of the facts?  Your idea is certain to involve a lot more people being killed.

Try to look at the logic of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_powers

Any decent society will have a clear separation between the judicial act of deciding to kill someone and the executive act of killing them.  "Professionals with black clothing and silenced weapons" type systems where private individuals select victims and have them killed breach this principle.  That's tyranny - not freedom.
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1004
It is not my view that is being imposed on anyone. You are confused about anarchy. Anarchy does not mean that anarchists remove the rules that your government imposes on everyone, and replace them with rules that anarchists impose on everyone. Anarchy means that each individual decides what he wants to do, and each individual is free to try to impose their own rule on someone else. There are no anarchy rules to impose. That is why it is called anarchy. It is up to each individual to have good morals and logical ethical position.

This form of anarchy I call the only true Anarchy, and this is not what most "anarchists" here would consider as anarchy. So you would go for a sort of heretic among them...

That is anarcho-capitalism as I understand it. You can do whatever you wish, so long as you are aware of consequences of your action, and everyone else is free to react to your actions as they wish, without relying on law or police to tell them how they must react. How is my anarchy form different?

The one and only form of anarchy in the history of mankind is the self-sufficient community. There is no such thing as individualism in the human nature. A human is neither an individualist nor a (hyper-) collectivist (citizen). Anarchy in the world of the reality means individualistic (stateless, unruled) communities.
Matrilineal anarchy was slowly replaced by patriarchy (= organized violence, state and church) about 10'000 years ago.
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1004
Yes, they are finished. Indebted already as grotesk as the globalized developed just-in-time-world, on which their economy is depending.

China debt is not nearly as serious as USA or Europe debt, because debt in USA and Europe is to citizens in forms of pensions, medicine, and social security. Plus those citizens have much personal debt in credit cards and mortgages. China does not have many social programs, and many people save much money and have large savings, so if China collapses, they have enough to live on for a long time.

That's funny. Where ever people have 'much money and large savings', there are people that have much debt, because money is debt.
China went to 300 percent Debt/GDP within the greatest speed in the history of capitalism/collectivism. To avoid the economic collapse after the Lehman event, the chinese state terrorists did more QE than the Benbernank. They know that the guilloutines are ready for them as soon as the debt machine stops to grow at 20 and more percent annually.
member
Activity: 70
Merit: 10
It is not my view that is being imposed on anyone. You are confused about anarchy. Anarchy does not mean that anarchists remove the rules that your government imposes on everyone, and replace them with rules that anarchists impose on everyone. Anarchy means that each individual decides what he wants to do, and each individual is free to try to impose their own rule on someone else. There are no anarchy rules to impose. That is why it is called anarchy. It is up to each individual to have good morals and logical ethical position.

This form of anarchy I call the only true Anarchy, and this is not what most "anarchists" here would consider as anarchy. So you would go for a sort of heretic among them...

That is anarcho-capitalism as I understand it. You can do whatever you wish, so long as you are aware of consequences of your action, and everyone else is free to react to your actions as they wish, without relying on law or police to tell them how they must react. How is my anarchy form different?
member
Activity: 70
Merit: 10
Yes, they are finished. Indebted already as grotesk as the globalized developed just-in-time-world, on which their economy is depending.

China debt is not nearly as serious as USA or Europe debt, because debt in USA and Europe is to citizens in forms of pensions, medicine, and social security. Plus those citizens have much personal debt in credit cards and mortgages. China does not have many social programs, and many people save much money and have large savings, so if China collapses, they have enough to live on for a long time.
legendary
Activity: 3514
Merit: 1280
English ⬄ Russian Translation Services
It is not my view that is being imposed on anyone. You are confused about anarchy. Anarchy does not mean that anarchists remove the rules that your government imposes on everyone, and replace them with rules that anarchists impose on everyone. Anarchy means that each individual decides what he wants to do, and each individual is free to try to impose their own rule on someone else. There are no anarchy rules to impose. That is why it is called anarchy. It is up to each individual to have good morals and logical ethical position.

This form of anarchy I call the only true Anarchy, and this is not what most "anarchists" here would consider as anarchy. So you would go for a sort of heretic among them...
member
Activity: 70
Merit: 10
So your ideal society is one in which people get killed by "Professionals with black clothing and silenced weapons" hired by anyone who thinks they are cruel to animals.

It is not ideal society, it is society that may be better than what we have now, or at least not worse, since we have people which get killed by professionals with blue clothing, called on by anyone who thinks they are cruel to animals. Besides, it not necessary to kill. Give very stern warning to these people, maybe with warning shots, and it may be enough to give them notice that they are being watched. This is not so much possible with just calling police who may just come, investigate, and leave if they can't come into house to investigate.

I am opposed to female genital mutilation and I am happy with the present system where people who do that to a girl are named and shamed in court proceedings and their children can be taken into care.  Anarchists say that female genital mutilation is a personal moral choice of the parents and that they should be left get on with it.

Yet more example of you confused about anarchy. Anarchy is not every person should be allowed to do whatever he wishes. That is what media portrays anarchy as, making it seem violent, scary, and every man for himself. In anarchy, every person makes their own decision. This also includes decision to name and shame people who do female genital mutilation, and refuse to interact or do business with them. Anarchy is community where everyone is equal.

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Do you want everyone to face the risk of mob law?  That often misfires.  For example, in Wales, a paediatrician was driven out of her home because the locals thought paediatrician is a synonym for paedophile.  Or do you want a system of courts whose approval is required for any violent acts and a system of police who are trained to use violence in a minimal way.

Democracy is mob law. If more people believe something is wrong, they will rule that it should be illegal. Look at how much time American mobs spend on voting to support religions, protect children from sex, and making drugs illegal. Everyone is so afraid sex and drugs that their law system is very broken.
And courts can also be private, people can agree to take people to court to stand trial, and private security can be trained to use violence in minimal way. People liked the idea of trials in courts. That is why we have passed laws to agree to such a thing to begin with. So it is likely that people will continue to want private courts too. And it is more costly for private security to commit violence (lost ammunition, damaged property, lost or damaged employees) than for police to engage in violence. Police always get their paycheck no matter what. Even if they kill a child by accident, they just get warning and keep working. Compare how many civilians police in America killed, to how many civilians gangs like Yakuza and Cosa Nostra killed. At least those gangs don't shoot children when they get scared of children with plastic guns.
legendary
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1217
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
legendary
Activity: 3514
Merit: 1280
English ⬄ Russian Translation Services
They didn't collapse for a few millennia and now they would? China is still very underdeveloped country, so they would just get back where they started three decades ago. Not a long time really, taking into account the length of their history...

Yes, they are finished. Indebted already as grotesk as the globalized developed just-in-time-world, on which their economy is depending.

What do you mean by being finished actually? Through all their long history China has always been very closed society. What would change so dramatically in the life of ordinary Chinese people if the United States were to crash? They would just get to their villages and back to rice fields where their ancestors had been toiling for centuries...
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1004
China is surely not as dependent on the USA as the latter on the former. Even if the USA disappeared entirely one day, China would go on.

Never ever. The Chinese regime (state mafia) would collapse within a week and with them the whole society. They need a maximum of state terror even now, when the economy is booming.

They didn't collapse for a few millennia and now they would? China is still very underdeveloped country, so they would just get back where they started three decades ago. Not a long time really, taking into account the length of their history...

Yes, they are finished. Indebted already as grotesk as the globalized developed just-in-time-world, on which their economy is depending.
legendary
Activity: 3514
Merit: 1280
English ⬄ Russian Translation Services
China is surely not as dependent on the USA as the latter on the former. Even if the USA disappeared entirely one day, China would go on.

Never ever. The Chinese regime (state mafia) would collapse within a week and with them the whole society. They need a maximum of state terror even now, when the economy is booming.

They didn't collapse for a few millennia having been conquered several times and now they would? China is still very underdeveloped country, so they would just get back where they started three decades ago. Not a long time really, taking into account the length of their history...
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1004
Electricity is getting more complex to hold up every year. Europe is a supranational network, and the chance for a blackout is growing every year as well.

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If ever, it surely won't look like a collapse of a unified society. I think you are crying wolf really...

Wait for the next Lehman event. The collapse will undoubtedly be a global one in a globalized society. The USA is not working anymore without China et vice versa. A Bankrun, and the whole society comes to a stand still.

China is surely not as dependent on the USA as the latter on the former. Even if the USA disappeared entirely one day, China would go on.

Never ever. The Chinese regime (state mafia) would collapse within a week and with them the banking system and the whole society. They need a maximum of state terror even now, when the economy is booming.
The just in time economy is globalized. Toyota had to stop the production worldwide after Fukushima, because some parts couldn't be produced anymore in Fukushima.
legendary
Activity: 3514
Merit: 1280
English ⬄ Russian Translation Services
Electricity is getting more complex to hold up every year. Europe is a supranational network, and the chance for a blackout is growing every year as well.

Quote
If ever, it surely won't look like a collapse of a unified society. I think you are crying wolf really...

Wait for the next Lehman event. The collapse will undoubtedly be a global one in a globalized society. The USA is not working anymore without China et vice versa. A Bankrun, and the whole society comes to a stand still.

China is surely not as dependent on the USA as the latter on the former. Even if the USA disappeared entirely one day, China would go on. And Europe is not dependent on either. Actually, it is more dependent on Russia and their natural resources. In short, I don't see how the whole world could collapse all at once, unless there is some disaster by natural causes...
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1004

What you say looks more like some giant asteroid hitting Earth, not like a technological disaster. And still less a societal collapse. Societies usually either slowly vanish into nonexistence without raising hell or just get conquered by their more agile neighbors (which is right, in my opinion)...

No, it looks like a normal implosion of a complex society. Instead of the pyramids, the nuclear reactors will be digged up some million years in the future. The maya culture disappeared immediately as well. Our society (globalized the first time in history) will disappear within weeks as soon as the network (internet and/or electricity) collapses.

I don't think it is as globalized as it might ultimately get. Electricity is not globalized at all, Internet is a distributed network at that, thus they cannot simply collapse in the way you think they would (within weeks).

Electricity is getting more complex to hold up (50 Hz) every year. Europe is a supranational network, and the chance for a blackout is growing every year as well.

http://www.zeit.de/zeit-wissen/2012/06/Stromnetz-Winter-Blackout-Stromausfall
http://www.t-online.de/wirtschaft/energie/id_46657528/bei-stromausfall-droht-kollaps-der-gesellschaft-.html

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If ever, it surely won't look like a collapse of a unified society. I think you are crying wolf really...

Wait for the next Lehman event. The collapse will undoubtedly be a global one in a globalized society. The USA is not working anymore without China et vice versa. A Bankrun, and the whole society comes to a stand still.
legendary
Activity: 3514
Merit: 1280
English ⬄ Russian Translation Services

What you say looks more like some giant asteroid hitting Earth, not like a technological disaster. And still less a societal collapse. Societies usually either slowly vanish into nonexistence without raising hell or just get conquered by their more agile neighbors (which is right, in my opinion)...

No, it looks like a normal implosion of a complex society. Instead of the pyramids, the nuclear reactors will be digged up some million years in the future. The maya culture disappeared immediately as well. Our society (globalized the first time in history) will disappear within weeks as soon as the network (internet and/or electricity) collapses.

I don't think it is as globalized as it might ultimately get. Electricity is not globalized at all, Internet is a distributed network at that, thus they cannot simply collapse in the way you think they would (within weeks). If ever, it surely won't look like a collapse of a unified society. I think you are crying wolf really...
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1004
That's what qualitative leaps are created for. You squeeze everything from the current system and then you get to the next level. As simple as that. Actually, we've been there before many times in history...

Yes, but sooner or later we will also be back on a level, on which we have been a million or more years ago. A collapse of a society with aqueducts or pyramids is not the same as a collapse of a society with 500 or 5000 burning nuclear reactors. 500 or 5000 Fukushima events, but without cooling. An equivalent of 100 Million Hiroshima Bombs will be blown out into the atmosphere.

What you say looks more like some giant asteroid hitting Earth, not like a technological disaster. And still less a societal collapse. Societies usually either slowly vanish into nonexistence without raising hell or just get conquered by their more agile neighbors (which is right, in my opinion)...

No, it looks like a normal implosion of a complex society. Instead of the pyramids, the nuclear reactors will be digged up some million years in the future. The maya culture disappeared immediately as well. Our society (globalized the first time in history) will disappear within weeks as soon as the network (internet and/or electricity) collapses.
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