Topic: How many of you have been Zhoutonged? - page 7. (Read 26392 times)

FIXED

So...make a better algorithm. This is obviously the best that's available right now.

tl;dr bitcoinicas quote algo screws leveraged users

I'll start off this post with some full disclosure.  I am Patrick from Intersango so take what I have with whatever size grain of salt you would like.

I have been warning people against trading on margin in general for a long time now, because the market is really very thin (yes even on MtGox).

This post is specifically about the quoted prices on bitcoinica. While they are reasonably close to market rate most of the time they remain in the complete control of bitcoinica. (I'm sure most of you already understand this)

They employ an algorithm which is clearly taking into account market velocity to protect themselves from falling behind the market, I can understand why they do this, really it makes perfect sense from their perspective; however this results in spikes which force liquidations which are really not necessary.

I only have detailed information for about 15 days, but if the relatively small amount of data I have shows this behaviour I can only imagine it would be even more clear in a longer data series.

Edit: I would like to add that this data is *not* readily available to normal users, thus the limited data series.

yes, Zhou is taking a big risk starting Bitcoinica and i do give him credit for that.  and despite my concerns about his biz model he probably is smart enough to adjust with changing conditions.  plus he does seem honest and committed to making it work.  my only concern is that the market may force him out.  we'll see.

as an experienced short seller, i must say i've been against the concept of shorting Bitcoin so early in its career.  i know how destructive it can be.  its too vulnerable at this point and i think shorting has contributed to the excessive downside we've seen.  and my concern is not so much from normal short sellers but from the Fed. 

imagine a scenario where the Fed sets up an acct in the name of JoeBlow1000 and feeds a continuous unending supply of USD's into its acct to fund short positions.  they could throw a trilion USD's or more at this if they wanted to stuff Bitcoin just like they've done with gold and silver via JPM and Goldman.  and they have no accountability.  how would Zhou or any of us know who was behind this?

at any rate, i'm pleased to see that Bitcoin has not failed and appears to be turning the corner upwards.  so maybe Zhou's leverage will work on the way up just like it did on the way down.

Thanks for putting yourself out there.  I'm still a noob (25 years old, barely any spare funds to invest), so there is very little I can offer.  I miss the old Gold thread discussion as well, but I completely understand how much of a time commitment it can take.  Your perspective is a very refreshing contrast to the doom and gloomers.  Of course, overoptimism can kill you too, but at least you have something to offer beyond "OMG It's all crashing down, buy gold".

well thanks for reading.  its hard putting oneself out on the line day after day esp. when i and everyone around here reads the same stuff like Zerohedge, Mish, etc all of whom are doom and gloomers.  one day i'm sure i'll make a complete fool of myself with one of my calls.  i actually miss the back and forth dissertation with miscreanity back on the Gold thread i started back in August.  at least he kept me on my toes and continuously made me question myself.  it was hard work though and i'm a very busy person.  we'll see how long i can keep it up.

Merry Christmas!

I do ready your blog carefully and was well aware of where you moved your funds.  I'm sorry if I offended you, I didn't mean to call you a chicken.   I just get frustrated every now and then with all the "this is not perfect so let's throw it out" talk on these forums.

I'm sure I have been more profitable than Mt. Gox with this "flawed" business model.

If there's a real threat, I'll shut down the service and do something new. It's that simple. You don't have to warn me when I have future plans beyond your imagination.

I'm not afraid of Mt. Gox at all. If they launch a good service, then it's good for the community. If they do something dirty, everyone will know and Bitcoinica will switch to another exchange and divert 25% market share away.

Also, shorting is natural to a free market. If you can mortgage USD asset and borrow ฿, you can short technically. Bitcoinica just made the process easier, which will help the market find the right price.

I have a lot of Bitcoin savings, I have more incentive than you to make the price rise. A lot of friends are telling me that Bitcoinica has left a good impression in terms of technical professionalism and web design, and this improves their impression on the whole industry. They don't have to use Bitcoinica to trust Bitcoin more.

You're commenting based on your numbers without considering others' hearts. Customer perception is the utmost importance to me for an obvious reason - I want to change Bitcoin community in every way I can. If your target is $10, then continue suppressing shorting services. If your target is $1,000, you should respect and encourage every new service that makes the community better.

Bitcoinica spreads are a moving target. Stops are unreliable. Trading month to month on leverage is incredibly profitable. Anything else is gambling with a house who's making the rules up as you play.

I'm considering opening separate accounts for each trade. I suspect forced liquidation is more reliable than stops (though I've not yet been liquidated).

I make no critique of Zhou personally. I think he's a brilliant kid with a well designed site and great support. My comments are to be taken purely at face value from experience. I've made some outstanding calls, profited on Mt. Gox, but have rarely pulled it off on Bitcoinica.

Maybe, I haven't used bitcoinica since it hit 2, cashed out and now I do a little bit of day trading, but not much.  Mostly I'm just holding, waiting to see what's gonna happen. 

There is something to cypherdoc's complaints. Whenever the prices get volatile, the spread compensates. Recall the spike up last week? Even if you had perfect orders at the exact bottom and top I doubt you would have made much if any money at Bitcoinica, but if you bet incorrectly, you'd have lost your entire bet and then some and some more again. $3.8 to $4.5 didn't happen on Bitcoinica, yet the ASK was over $5. It's taken me too long to realize Bitcoinica only works best for the very long term position holders at the expense of the day or week traders.

Maybe MtGox will buy bitcoinica.

lol I didn't miss anything, don't worry about me, I'm doing great    You really should relax a little bit, can't be good to be so hostile on Christmas!
And yes I am!


 

actually i'm not trying to discourage Zhoutong.  i'm trying to warn him about what i feel is a flawed business model which i agree is debatable.

but if mtgox does offer options he WILL be at a significant disadvantage.  there is no question about that.

maybe he can adjust but i'm not sure how.

also i feel that by offering shorting in an immature market such as Bitcoin, he has contributed to an artificially suppressed price over the last several months since he's been in biz.  its too late to help that but now we're seeing the market compensate in the other direction; UP.

if you read my blog carefully, i replaced my stock positions with additions to my TBT  which did even better.  I had caught the majority of the stock rally since the 10/4 bottom if you recall.  and it won't be too late to add to stock positions.

typical comment from a guy who's missed a 217% ramp off the bottom that i called 2d before it happened  

and you're a moderator?

He actually gave some good advice on the stock market rally last week, so I do have some respect for him.  Too bad for him, but he chickened out on his positions a few days before.  I'm too small of a player to be wasting trade fees, plus I didn't see how anything had changed, so I hung in there and made a nice profit.

He's always been a hater.  Probably just jealousy. 

Bitcoinica may be threatened when mtgox adds options/margin trading.  That doesn't mean that will happen any time soon.  MtGox is a slow moving beast.  Why discourage Zhoutong when he is providing a valuable service not available elsewhere?  He has clearly demonstrated (IMHO) better responsiveness and more agile development.  Unless you have inside info you're not sharing, MtGox hasn't said anything about this since they posted it on their site over 6 months ago.