Topic: How Satoshi Nakamoto Fooled the World - page 7. (Read 8881 times)

False. Once property is stolen/destroyed/lost, fiat numbers suddenly represent non-existent resources. That's why the rich invest on the property, and not on the liability of that property.

Irrelevant. Cars, houses, debt, or whatever resource can be stolen, destroyed, damaged, lost ... But that has nothing to do with this discussion. Here, currently,  we discuss the difference between numbers that represent quantity of resources that people own and numbers that represent participation in Nakamoto's fraudulent investment scheme.

And yet that representation comes as zero comfort to anyone who has lost their money in a bank collapse.  Representations guarantee nothing in practice.  Lost savings are lost.  End of story.

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False.  Providing views and potentially ad revenue for sensationalist nonsense is not something anyone responsible would encourage.  It only prompts the creation of more sub-par drivel.  Give your attention to credible and qualified youtubers instead.

Here is a video from someone who thinks Bitcoin is a ponzi scheme.  Worth watching even if you disagree with him. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AAUrMuMPlo

There's nothing to understand. Fiat currencies are numbers that are used to represent quantity of debt. End of story. In the OP I mentioned this as a way to demonstrate the difference between numbers that represent a resource and numbers that represent nothing but are just units of a number created in Nakamoto's imagination. I could have as well used numbers in brokerage accounts that represent quantity of shares in companies. Or numbers on invoices that represent the quantity of products or services. Some government agencies have nothing to do with that. This is just your way to shift the discussion away from the point that clearly shows why Nakamoto's invention is a fraudulent investment scheme.

@JayJuanGee Can you please, please stop trolling this topic. Read the OP to see what this topic is about.

Bitcoin represents no resource. That's why you need resources from new investors to exist Nakamoto scheme. Bitcoin is simply an advanced way to record the investors who joined a fraudulent investment scheme. In all such schemes, from the one invented by Charles Ponzi to the one invented by Bernie Madoff, investors were recorded in some way. Satoshi Nakamoto invented an online and numerically based method of recording the investors. There's nothing to discuss here if you look at the facts. Here I am simply refuting your rationalizations for the denial of the facts.

So? Point? Fiat currencies are still numbers that represent the quantity of debt. Bitcoin is still number created in Nakamoto's imagination that represent no resource, which is why those that hold bitcoins must wait for new investors to bring the resources in. You, the same as many here, try to shift the discussion away from the fact that Nakamoto scheme is a traditional fraudulent investment scheme in an online form.
Bills were always just papers with some numbers on them. In the past they represented the quantity of gold. Today they represent the quantity of debt. Satoshi gave no currency, but numbers that represent nothing. Satoshi simply came up with a number (21 million) and created protocols and software for attributing units of that number to online addresses of investors that fell for their fraud. People invest resources in, and then they wait new investors to get the resources back and in that way exist the scheme. That's how all fraudulent investment schemes operate. Satoshi Nakamoto is simply a smart fraudster. And you all are a naive and gullible victims of their fraud. When the scheme collapses then you'll realize the true meaning of my words. Currently you're blinded by greed and thoughts of getting rich because you saw that others made a lot of money from this fraud.

You are right and I agree with you.
2017 I am familiar with this forum and continue to explore the "difference" between the process of using fiat money and digital currencies otherwise known as crypto. Satoshi's intelligence in giving birth to crypto is extraordinary, especially Bitcoin. He came not to fool the world, but Satoshi conveyed to the world that Bitcoin is the best solution when it comes to future finances. So it is appropriate that the sentence CryptocurrencyBitcoin is freedom, Banking is slavery that Lauda quoted from Arif Naseem.

This guy keeps saying non-sense over and over again and can't figure out he's the one on the wrong side. That's the most unfortunate but he kind of deserves because he has so many proof of what is going on beneath his eyes and he doesn't want to see. It's not even that he can't but, it's that he doesn't want to.

A couple of years ago the same happened to a bank in my country. Or better, what happened was that a bank owner was so corrupt that he end up being caught, the bank went down due to insolvency, he was arrested but most people that had life savings there, got nothing in the end. Mostly emigrants that put their life savings there. The guy is now on trial for years but that won't bring the bank clients their money back.

Another one did similar and ran away to South Africa. Was arrested there and during his trial, he end up hanging himself in jail! Ridiculous. I can't understand how this dumb fucks like the OP, keep saying what they say as if this system was working properly. I mean, it works properly but for the empowered ones (rich people) and politicians.

These are the 2 cases I'm talking about
https://portuguese-american-journal.com/update-ricardo-salgado-banco-espirito-santo-former-ceo-detained-portugal/

and

https://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News/2021/12/11/portugal-Fugitive-banker-Joao-Rendeiro-arrested-South-Africa/9541639254772/
https://www.thesouthafrican.com/news/portuguese-banker-joao-rendeiro-dies-in-sa-custody-following-arrest-last-year/

Lets test these claims in practice.

Recent Bank runs in China:

More infos here:

• Did the system pay the owed money back, when the banks couldnt? No. (Just up to $7,442, but we will never be able to verifiy if it actually happens, we can try to get more infos on friday when the money should be paid)
• Could people withdraw their money, that was worked for a long time? No.
• Do running living costs care, if you cant pay now, because your bank doesnt work? No.
• Life savings lost forever? Yes.
• So if the customers didnt get their money back, what was repaid to them? State violence and silence by the world. https://twitter.com/Byron_Wan/status/1546014495784349696 https://twitter.com/Byron_Wan/status/1546025798145957888

Does this only happen in „third world“ countries?

• First of all, it doesnt.
• Second of all, every human in the world has the right to keep their life savings and money they worked for, no matter where theyre from. A wipeout has consequences that cant be made unhappened later on.

What are your practical suggestion for a person that just lost millions, or 40 years of work, without having done anything wrong?

After your logic, a victim of these things in china, would have been fallen for a scam if they put their money into Bitcoin, even tho they would still have it now. And they wouldnt have been scammed by having their money in fiat, even tho people just lost everything.

Not quite. I'm getting some resources out of this thread. I hope the OP keep going with his insanity for another 30 pages for this week. After that I'm definitly out because there will be nothing left here to learn nor anything else to teach! But until the end of this week, I'll keep this thing going! xD

Something this thread has definitely wasted.

I agree with what you if you happen to be talking about bitcoin - especially since you mentioned satoshi, but you did not use the term bitcoin, which causes some confusion and ambiguity in regards to your references. 

It seems quite vague and amorphous to proclaim that the invention, innovation or even the progress of bitcoin is called "crypto" or "blockchain" because it is very difficult to know what the fuck you are talking about when you employ those kinds of terms. 

Sure there are a variety of matters that are built along the side of bitcoin, and some might be competing (or they seem to proclaim that they are) or they might be complementing bitcoin, or they might be scamming folks into some kind of made up bullshit to cause them to believe that their project is equal to or better than bitcoin or similar to bitcoin, but it seems vague as fuck, at best, to be throwing out those kinds of terms of crypto and blockchain if you had been wanting to talk about bitcoin in this here thread.

Yeah. a lot of people throw out vague ass terms like crypto and blockchain when they are talking about bitcoin, but that does not mean it is worthy of replicating, even if your intentions are good.... in other words, if you mean bitcoin say bitcoin.. otherwise specify what you be talkin bout willis.

Even Snowshow, as disingenuine as he seems to be most of the time, seems to understand that there is a difference between bitcoin and crypto and between bitcoin and blockchain and at least nominally does not seem to be afraid to use the term bitcoin, and he is not throwing out vague-ass terms like "crypto" and "blockchain" when referring to his assertions of alleged deficiencies in bitcoin. 

Of course, Snowshow seems to be mixed up and confused in a variety of other ways and seems to not know what he is talking about in terms of differentiating bitcoin and various fiat systems or even being able to sufficiently and adequately explain various fiat systems, so I don't necessarily want to proclaim that Snowshow actually knows what bitcoin is either because there is quite a bit of evidence to show that he has "issues" in terms of understanding what bitcoin is, too.

When banking system was created, the bills were attributed some value, something we today call as fiat currency. Its nothing but a piece of paper backed by reserve bank. Still it changed the way we do transactions( Previously it was barter). Then came the online banking, but it lacked the flexibility of true digital currency. That is where satoshi saw opportunity and gave us a system of online currencies, today we call as crypto, which can help us make blockchain based transaction. Which outweighs fiat or online banking.

What you keep failing to understand is that actually Bitcoin represents way better any resource than your shit money. That's a fact and you can't accept it, or at least don't want to accept it. No matter how many times people try to show you by means of 2 + 2, you keep repeating yourself over and over again about what is debt, what it represents, what fiat money do, what it doesn't do, bla bla bla as if you were telling us something we don't know.
You're like almost 20 years late my friend. We know everything you seem to know and we are showing knowledge like 20 years ahead of you.

But as I told you before, keep going with the troll, while I'm getting more and more useless numbers of that scheme Satoshi created while you are getting nothing and even more, you're losing as time passes by! Once more HFST.BTCBTCBTCBTC

Snowshow is unqualified?  Who would've thunk?     

Horseshit.  Complete and utter horseshit.  If you can't understand fiat well enough to understand why agencies like the FSCS exist, or why millionaires put their money in property/art/etc, then you clearly aren't in a position to argue any further on this point.  You are too ignorant and misinformed to present any credible arguments against Bitcoin.

You seem to not understand what is "trolling."

I am not trolling.  I am providing examples, comparing and contrasting, and you had seemed to have been saying that bitcoin was just like numbers attached to nothing, but that is not true.  Bitcoin has attached prices that can also be assessed as value in various ways. It is not an easy topic, and your attempts to overly simplify, including proclaiming that bitcoin does not have value fails to capture what is bitcoin - and surely it does not seem to amount to your numbers system.  

Just to reiterate the earlier example, if I had enough bitcoin right now, i could get hookers, lambos and blow with such bitcoin, and the bitcoin that I would end up using for such consumptive purchase could have been attained (let's say having had obtained the bitcoin 6-8 years ago) at a fraction of the actual today's cost of hookers, lambos and blow.  

You could not even come close to making those kinds of claims about the retention of purchasing power or even the increase in purchasing power in regards to dollars or the numbers system that you seemed to have been suggesting to exist.

In other words, you seem to be mixed up in the various claims that you are making, and you are proclaiming that I am trolling because my examples, even as further highlighted by tadamichi, seem to show how vacuous your various claims are... and you are not even getting better with the passage of time.. You try to imply your claims are getting stronger, but instead you are just ongoingly  changing aspects of the topic  - so you seem to be trolling your own topic.. since you cannot (or will not) even address your original questions/assertions or the various responses to your questions/assertions.


You are right that the value/price of bitcoin does not represent debt owed to anyone.  Bitcoin is a bearer instrument that has value and price attached to it, and of course, both the value and the price fluctuates, but we can still transact with bitcoin in terms of today's spot price or we could hold it out of anticipation of a greater or even an equal future price.. we might even attach some value to just being able to hold value and to be able to spend bitcoin later, even if it might have gone down in value/price in the future.  

Your attempts to pigeonhole bitcoin seems to intentionally fail/refuse to recognize the various ways that bitcoin has value and also certain kinds of values that are likely greater in a number of ways than capabilities within various existing fiat (or debt) based systems.

I am not even proclaiming that there are not any costs to having such power contained in bitcoin to be able to transact directly without a third-party intermediary who might either interfere with the transaction or change the value of the underlying bitcoin (or satoshis).. Many of us have already seen various ways that bitcoin has become more user-friendly over the years, but there are still potential costs of losing bitcoin private keys and then no one can recover that value that had been lost.

In the real world, rather than in Snowshow's fantasy land, there seems to be a whole hell of a lot of value in terms of NOT having bitcoin debased with the passage of time, and surely none of the current holders of bitcoin or even the future holders of bitcoin can predict with confidence the future price of bitcoin, even though there are various models to help to provide some guidelines, but with the passage of time it seems that many bitcoiners (and even precoiners or current no coiners) are learning that there is likely greater value in terms of being in a system (bitcoin) in which they underlying currency/value is not being ongoingly debased.  

You (Snowshow) continue to just dance around such topic of which currencies/assets are debased relative to other currencies/assets and relative to bitcoin too, and you seem to be ongiongly trying to attribute way more value to various traditional fiat-based systems than they deserve, and sure some of those currently practiced fiat-based and/or debt systems are not likely to completely disappear in bitcoin, but at least the foundation level of bitcoin has way more solidness (and the collateral that you admit to be valuable) as compared with the various fiat-based and debt-based systems that are currently practiced in a variety of ongoingly deceptive and confusing ways.

Wrong. If you hold fiat currency, that is, numbers it is the banking system, it is that system that ows you, not a particular bank. So if a particular failed bank sell their assets (loans included) to a different bank, it is that bank that will force the borrowers to repay their loans. And in order for the borrowers to be able to reply their loans they are forced to provide labour, services and products to the number holders. In that way, the debt, that the system owes to those holders (because they invested in debt whose quantity is represented with numbers) is paid.

Bitcoins on the other hand are not numbers that represent quantity of debt or other resource that people own. Bitcoins (lowercase "b") are just units of Nakamoto's imaginary number (21 million) that the system or network (Bitcoin) attributed to people's addresses as a way to label that they joined the Nakamoto scheme. Bitcoins are simply a modern way of labeling members of a traditional fraudulent investment scheme.

But see, that's the rub, isn't it?

If you owe debt to the failing bank, like a mortgage, the failed bank can sell your debt on to a different bank.  But the money raised through that process will go to shareholders and bondholders first.  After the dust settles, there isn't enough money left to cover what is owed to savers due to how fractional reserve works.

If the bank owe you money because you are an unsecured creditor, that debt does not get sold on to another bank.  It's a one-way street.  If you owe the bank, your debt stands.  If the bank owe you, that debt can and will be voided.  Again, you are only covered up to the amount your government are willing to protect.  Anything above that amount is likely forfeit. 

You, like most of the general public, do not seem to grasp this reality.  This has happened before.  It will happen again.  But not in Bitcoin.  Because we are not a debt-based system.

You're again showing the ignorance of how the banks operate. All numbers are printed out of thin air. Numbers on invoices, numbers on banknotes or bank accounts, numbers in mathematical books etc. The point is what these numbers represent. In the banking system they represent the quantity of debt. Debt is a resource that is protected with the collaterals of the borrowers. The collaterals of the borrowers didn't cease to exist just because a particular bank became insolvent. Insolvency effects the equity and the owners of the banks, not a currency in general. Although a currency in general can be affected if the whole banking system is based on bad collaterals, like in corrupted third-world countries. But all that is besides the point for this discussion. Here we discuss the fraudulent investment scheme in which the numeric labels of members who joined the scheme (bitcoins) are falsely advertised as money. And where the network (Bitcoin) that transfers those labels is falsely advertised as a payment system. Read the OP. I edited it again, just for you, to make the important points more clear.

@JayJuanGee Please stop trolling this discussion.

I guess I did not think through my hypothetical well enough, since I had not been shopping for Lambos recently.  I just rounded it to a kind of easy to calculate number.. maybe if lambo does not work for that price, then a nice boat?  In any event, the point was supposed to be that times are not so good in bitcoinlandia at least in terms of the price in recent times, relatively speaking.

For example, we are ONLY up right around 80x from 2015...

and only up around 2x if you start your calculation from September 2020.

I do like to consider my own average cost per BTC to be around $1k, so I suppose times are tough no matter how the matter is spun, since that is ONLY around 20x up.. and... especially if I had ONLY been admitting to having 0.63 BTC.. so that is not even close to enough for a Lambo yet anyhow, even a reduced price one.. surely nothing that does not have problems.

I am sorry to say that I am not even fun, either because I am even getting less excited about the Snowshow/tadamichi numbers system because I was under the impression that anyone (such as me) could issue numbers, now you are changing it in terms of from where the numbers have to come.. sure thanks for putting me on the priority list.. it is like in theory, I would then advantage from the Catillon effect..

Yet, I am still starting to feel loss of confidence on my end, and I am thinking that if I just keeping on building up my bitcoin stack with a kind of Dollar cost averaging system would be better than that numbers system.  

I tend to recommend $100 per week or $10 per week for newbies into BTC upon considering their cashflow and all that.  Maybe Snowshow will be able to describe the number system better than you... because I thought that I was starting to understand it, and I was even getting excited and ready to deploy it, but your further explanation is not convincing me.  

It does not even seem similar to bitcoin.. At least bitcoin has value, and yeah, bitcoin might not be at the greatest price range in recent months, but that just seems to make bitcoin more of a buying opportunity at the moment anyhow.

I am not completely convinced of the numbers system, but if Snowshow can maybe explain the numbers system a wee bit better, or if I end up getting a hooker, Lambo and/or blow out through the numbers system, then that might help me to better understand how the numbers system works, too.  

I will await either Snowshow or your clarification if I am not properly understanding how the numbers thing has or gets any value.. especially compared with bitcoin (a system that actually works).  Personally, bitcoin does not even seem like that numbers system, and Snowshow was saying that the numbers system was similar to bitcoin, and it is not convincing, for sure... Bitcoin has historical value, present value, and likely future value too.