Topic: How somebody can prove that my wallet belong to him? (Read 360 times)

well we know no one has actually stolen his key. his is just hypothesising..

however some people want to know how secure things are, but afraid to ask.
they dont want to sound dumb.

so by answering this. other people that want genuine answers about how many permutations there are will find out

Just? Let me ask you something, do you know how many possible permutations there are for a 12-word seed phrase from a set of just 2048 words?
I know that o_e_l_e_o and franky1 have already answered you, but I am just wondering if you know how to calculate that number yourself?

---

@guys, I do not think it is worth trying to dumb it down for him any further. I am not sure if he is just trolling or he really no understand. 

ok lets clarify some stuff

a 12 word seed is actually 11 random words where the 12th is PART of a "checksum"
lets not go to much into the details and lets dumb it down to simply using 11 words for easy math sake

so even using 11 random words of a 2048 library and letting the software calculate the remaining to create the 12th word checksum

those 11 words have
2,658,455,991,569,830,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
possibilities

if 8billion people tried 1 unique attempt
thats still 1 in 332,306,998,946,229,000,000,000,000
if they done 1million attempts a second
thats still going to require 332,306,998,946,229,000,000seconds
which is
thats still 5,538,449,982,437,150,000 minutes to try them all
thats still 92,307,499,707,285,800 hours to try them all
thats still 3,846,145,821,136,910 days to try them all
thats still 10,537,385,811,334 years to try them all
thats still 123,969,244,839 lifetime to try them all

yep if all 8 billion people done 1million possibilities/sec for their entire lives.
they will still need to pass the project down to their offspring who pass it down to descendants
for 124 billion lifetimes of ancestry

It doesn't matter. There are 2¹²⁸ possible valid 12 word seed phrases from the standard wordlist of 2048 words. You have failed to grasp how big a number that is. Re-read the numbers I have explained above. There will never be a collision between any reused seed phrases in the entire future of the human race. Feel free to start randomly generating seed phrases and checking them for balance if you want, but I guarantee that you will find absolutely nothing.

No they didn't, and we don't know for sure which addresses belong(ed) to Satoshi.

Signing a message is something on their wallets is something that people have been doing since bitcoin's public release. This is also the reason why we found out whose wallets are of Satoshi Nakamoto's ownership, because he signs a message on his wallets. In any case, there are also a few other techniques that other users employ like keeping timestamps of their wallet's age and other stuff. But all of these are really dependent on what wallet type you use. There are multiple ways really. And you can also employ multiple methods at the same time. I myself sign messages on my wallet and also keep track of transactions.

Not random words!
It's just 2048 english words and the dictionary is known!

An attacker who knew what he was doing would be able to create an undetectable forgery of a wallet file with a timestamp of whenever they like, which renders this method useless.

And even if they did not create a forgery, the true owner could simply have lost or even deliberately deleted the original wallet file, since they were simply relying on their seed phrase back up.

I think the argument here is to prove who originally own the wallet address, so I guess it should go down to the history of wallet creation.  the original owner can be verified by some technicalities like the wallet.dat or the .json file as I stated earlier, if it is available, the person who has the oldest file can be considered the owner and I think that can be presented legally as well if the case is brought to court. 

I am thinking of an atom. One specific atom. Not just on Earth, not just in the solar system, but somewhere in the observable universe. A single atom. Start guessing and I'll give you all the bitcoin I own once you pick the right one. Why not? There is a chance you pick correctly, after all!

This is like you trying to find a previously used seed phrase by simply picking random words. It is a complete waste of time. The only thing you will gain is burnt out hardware and a high electricity cost.

Here is an explanation I gave a few years ago:

Why not? It is a chance!

None of these are cryptographic proof, however. You might be able to "prove" it in a court, but as we both know from our discussions regarding CSW, courts aren't exactly great arbiters of truth. And the words in your seed phrase should never be picked because they have meaning for you and should always be generated randomly, so that's a poor suggestion.

No, because that method will never find a used seed phrase or address, even if you used all the computing power in the world and ran it until the Earth is engulfed by the dying sun.

Most probably by the time you'll realize somebody is using your wallet, your funds will be gone. So you won't have to prove anything.  

A person who knows the private key or wallet.dat + password owns the coins. There is no other way if the wallet is non-custodial.

Let's just start out with the common quote and tip by everybody about owning keys. "Not your keys, not your coins."

And from there, if someone also owns that private keys that you have for that wallet then it only means that both of you owns it. But what's the essence of keeping with that wallet if someone already knew it and probably have swept all of the funds there?

You better just abandon that wallet and make a new one for yourself and do all necessary things that it won't happen again. Because how could that happen is when you've been hacked or phished.

I don't think it is possible for you and another person to co own and use one wallet, where as you don't know such a person, and neither is the wallet in question , a multisig wallet.

creating wallets cost absolutely nothing and would only take less than 5 minutes, it is an absolute stupidity for a hacker to keep using your wallet after hacking, he know you have access to the same wallet and that if he puts or leave funds stored on that wallet, you can and would withdraw it, for this reason, they can never use co use a wallet they already hacked with the owner of the wallet they hacked, its not possible.

Making a proof to ownership of a wallet depends if there is any litigation on ground, if not what is the point proving ownership when only one person is in possession of the passphrase but however, if you have possession of the wallet keys and you noticed someone is on possession of it you will have to transfer your assets to a new wallet immediately before any other thing happens but if in a situation where you will need to prove your ownership in a law court, then it will need you to take extra effort inlaying claims to the wallet which will involve you providing evidence such as transactions which requires mostly experience or possible events and occurrences surrounding the tokens bought atleast thrse can be a bit challenging but convincing.

I believe I understand what you're saying. The obvious response is that if your seed or private key were compromised, you couldn't confirm that was your wallet. Whoever has the private key or seed phrase is the owner of the address, regardless of who you are. They all own the address if a thousand people have access to the private key. You are unable to establish the true owner regardless. Hence, if the private keys or seed are compromised, it is no longer yours.

As others point out, you made a critical error in this model.

If you aren't the only person to have the private key, then the wallet is no longer yours, and yours only. You merely have equal control over the same wallet. Or to put it simple: the only way to prove sole ownership is to be the sole person controlling the private keys.

If you want to prove you owned it first, and it was stolen or given away or compromised, then you must find a way to prove that you used it first.

In your model, you could create a wallet and immediately "Stake" a Bitcoin address on this forum, signing from it. It doesn't prove you were the first owner though, just the first to use it or to attempt to provide evidence of owning it.

So we can say that if I recall my seed-phrase that way - it is mine?

Pretty much the answer is: if you hold the keys, they are your coins.  So if you both have the keys, you better move the coins immediately to a wallet that you control.  And if a criminal has the keys, they probably will have already done that.

I don't even know why anyone would ever share a seed-phrase with another person, it is never a good idea and can only bring problems in the future.
In my eyes, seed phrases are like toothbrushes, not supposed to be shared  

OP, as people have told you, if you have any funds in that "wallet", move them to a new one that only you control and move on. If you need to prove ownership of some address to claim some money, airdrop or whatever, it is unlikely there is a solution to this matter if you do not know the other person in real life.

This is simple yet the best solution in my opinion

---

but you have said that some people are using it  . I mean if you still have the access to that wallet it's better to move your money out than argue. and move on. before people who using it did it first

Why bother proving that a wallet belongs to you? Even if you manage to prove it, what is the point? The other person will still own the private key, and that cannot be changed.

One possibility that comes to mind is being able to demonstrate the priority of using a particular address. For example, if you have made a public record of the address or have used it to deposit funds, and you can prove that the transaction belongs to you.

This question is a technical question and  sounds like someone trying to prove a case of ownership either in a law court to clarify an argument or maybe a police report. If you must claim a wallet belongs to you then the first thing you can prove with that is is presenting your seed phrase or secret keys but if in a case there are two holders of the secret keys trying to claim ownership then it will need some extra efforts to do so.  I believe there are some remarkable events attached to an occurrence for which the real owner of the wallet must remember to explain, some events can lead you to explaining the process and how it began. In a situation where by two people are dragging ownership of a thing, I believe from mere explanatory you could tell who the owner really is. Looking at this, as a wallet related, the owner must have had some experience to some of the token on his or her wallet with some memorable occurrence which can not be easily forgotten.

Anyone who has the private key own the wallet.  So if it happens that someone got your private key, then that person also owns that wallet.  We can identify the true owner by the record that has the earliest record or file of wallet.dat or json file if it is in electrum.  If it is created online, you can check the history of each pc as long as the cookies or history of the browser is not deleted. If all is not available then we cannot prove the true owner of that wallet.

That at least what I think to verify the true owner of that wallet.

I also agree with buwaytress to forget about the wallet if ever that is already emptied out by the owner or the hacker and never use it again because it is already compromised.

all the responses are people taking the word "wallet" too literal as software..

the OP is talking about if some hacker or ex girlfriend obtained the seed phrase/wallet.dat file thus has possession of the private key..

in which case if they have not already moved the funds out of the keys to their address thus stealing funds away from you. the only option is for you to quickly move the funds to a fresh seedphrase/wallet that uses different keypairs which the other person does not posess

if the funds are gone. and you are trying to take this person to court and you are asking for proof that you owned/created the seed phrase and not them. to claim original ownership, meaning proving they stole your funds
well thats alot harder to prove

unless:
a. the phrases represent words that can clearly be tied to things in your life and not the hackers
EG all 12 words have a meaning towards your hobbies EG your a musician and all words are musical related. and/or have relation to your families hobbies/interests

b. where the stolen funds came from before being sent/deposited to your keys. EG buying coin on an exchange and withdrawn straight to your wallet whereby the exchange has KYC evidence that you bought the coin(though the thief can just claim you donated coins straight to them when you withdrew from the exchange) but would require the thief showing equal proof that the funds were intended for them to spend EG needs conversation logs of you saying you will buy coin and send it to them direct from the exchange

c. by having proof of means, method, opportunity to have got hold of your seed phrase/wallet.dat file. EG you ca link the hacker/thief to a piece of software that trojan horsed your computer with wallet.dat stealing capability or a phishing site that requested your private key/seed

Here is the maximum easy answer. If you both have the seed phrase then the wallet is both of yours.

Explanation being that ownership of an address comes down to who knows the private key and I guess in legal situations who used the key… If you both have the private keys then you can both use them. I don’t think there’s been court cases yet where people dispute the ownership of an address and both have the keys. The only court cases I’m familiar with are the ones where someone is trying to claim ownership without having the keys.

You can't.

In the scenario where you both know one or more private keys from the wallet, but only you know the seed phrase, then it is possible to prove that you are the real owner of the wallet by providing a proof (ideally, a zero-knowledge proof) that you are in possession of the seed phrase which was used to derive those private keys, while the other party is not.

In the scenario where you both know the seed phrase, there is no way to prove who was the original creator of that seed phrase.

I don't understand who you would need to prove it to, but if you are the owner and someone is using your wallet, there are two scenarios: either they have withdrawn all of your funds, and therefore you essentially cannot prove anything, or if they have only moved a few funds, you need to quickly move all of them before it's too late. There's no need to prove anything to anyone; otherwise, what's the point of anonymity?

Since you both are in possession of the secret phrase technically the wallet is no longer yours.

The best solution is for your to create a new wallet and let go of the previous wallet.

If you posted your address somewhere on this forum and now you can sign a message from it, you can prove that you are not only the current owner but likely the initial owner.

However, it is applied if you want to prove that your account is not hacked (aka one of account recovery methods).

If you don't need to prove your account ownership, that step (signing a message does not mean anything) because if they hacked your wallet and stole your fund, they have access to your private key and can sign any message from that wallet.

How to sign a message
Stake your Bitcoin address here
Often, you need to prove ownership of the account with a PGP or Bitcoin signature

You didn't elaborate what you need but I shared these topics to help you understanding more about importance to secure your private key and sign a message as ownership proof. It is necessary when you need to make a trade, your trade partner will ask you to sign a message too.

It's literally not possible for someone else to be using your wallet unless you have given them your secret phrase or possibly lost them. The only thing to do is to clear your funds and create a new wallet as soon as possible, So you won't loss your coins.

There's nothing there to prove it's your coin we are talking about here are you going to prove that you own an empty wallet or something because definitely he would have swept out your coins  already.so in such case be smart and fast.

Let us make it maximum easy.

We both know seed-phrase. How can i prove that the wallet is mine???

Your case and question don't portray sincerity and it's incomplete at the same time. Is the wallet custodial or noncustodial? Do you still have crypto assets in it?

Based on these, if you don't have crypto assets in it, why waste your time, go for another wallet for privacy and security reasons. But if you have crypto assets in it and it's custodial, contact your wallet company with your original details for a reclaim. However, if it's noncustodial, signing a known message with your private key will be the most viable way out.

#Update:
Lol...In this case, it's your carelessness and the person has all the needed information of the wallet. Quit it and move all your coins if you have any, and if still possible.

Huh.. But we can both signing from my wallet...

*It's not a real situation! It's just a model!

Signing from your wallet with an address that belongs to you. Which wallet are you using?

If someone else is actually really using your wallet already, then you'd best ditch your wallet and sweep all your funds out.

By signing a message with the wallet, if you're referring to a Bitcoin wallet then you can just sign a message proving that you truly own that wallet but for other network like Ethereum and the rest I'm not sure if you can sign with them because I haven't seen any message signed with them ^{although that doesn't mean it's not possible} .
And by the way Op why do you need to prove to people that you're the owner of a wallet? And why would someone else be using your wallet address?

---

Edit:


What type of wallet are you using? And how's that even possible to sign a wallet them being I possession of your private key?

Just as @buwaytress suggested just ditch the wallet and create a new one this time use a more reputable wallet like Electrum.

What if i catched some mot****er, who is using one of my wallets - how can i prove that it's mine?