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Topic: How to defend against asics or prove Metroid wrong - page 3. (Read 1252 times)

legendary
Activity: 2940
Merit: 1091
--- ChainWorks Industries ---
I support the idea of protecting coin algorithms from the use of asics. But how can we force developers to do that. For them, it does not matter who will be able to mining. But for decentralization mining and survivability of the coin is of great importance. How to explain this to the developers, I don't know.

You cannot force anyone to do anything.

In fact, a great many developers are ASIC pro, not against, due to the high volume of hashrate that can be achieved to secure network through PoW.

My firm belief is that GPU mining will ALWAYS have a place, and that the largest component to this is the home user. However, for assurance that this will be the future, there needs to be stability in the GPU mining systems, and the current state of affairs in the GPU market is abhorrent. Almost NO decent GPU can be had, and the manufacturing giants are elevating the prices of GPU's much higher than they are actually worth. This is a side effect, and a negative one at that, of the market at play here. We know, we buy and supply the GPU's. Shortages are not the only problem, though price is a major one.

So ASIC's become much more attractive in that case, as they come close to the price of GPU's in the medium level ASIC market.

What does this mean on an overall level?

Simply that NO ONE can kill ASIC's, just like NO ONE can kill GPU's.

I believe there will be a balance of all mining hardware, and that this balance will be maintained WELL into the future of mining. The fact that the head of nVidia himself believes that mining will be a core aspect of the business proves that the GPU mining will be alive and well MUCH deeper into the future than what anyone can conceive.

As for the Algo change, that is not difficult at all. We know, we have designed a few ourselves which will appear shortly in our coins. Getting around an adaptive ASIC/FPGA miner is!

#crysx

Dont have the misconception that high hashpower = secure.  I for one would rather a lower hashrate but many more people on the network.  And hashrate is reletive to the machines available to mine.  

Wrong ...

That is where 51% attacks come from. Security is a hashrate phenomenon, whether you or I like it or not.

If the network is a GPU hashed PoW and has 25MH, while we come along with our 'theFARM' and thrash the network at 250MH, then the network has a massive issue.

MH or GH, the figures stand.

#crysx
legendary
Activity: 3780
Merit: 1418
I support the idea of protecting coin algorithms from the use of asics. But how can we force developers to do that. For them, it does not matter who will be able to mining. But for decentralization mining and survivability of the coin is of great importance. How to explain this to the developers, I don't know.

You cannot force anyone to do anything.

In fact, a great many developers are ASIC pro, not against, due to the high volume of hashrate that can be achieved to secure network through PoW.

My firm belief is that GPU mining will ALWAYS have a place, and that the largest component to this is the home user. However, for assurance that this will be the future, there needs to be stability in the GPU mining systems, and the current state of affairs in the GPU market is abhorrent. Almost NO decent GPU can be had, and the manufacturing giants are elevating the prices of GPU's much higher than they are actually worth. This is a side effect, and a negative one at that, of the market at play here. We know, we buy and supply the GPU's. Shortages are not the only problem, though price is a major one.

So ASIC's become much more attractive in that case, as they come close to the price of GPU's in the medium level ASIC market.

What does this mean on an overall level?

Simply that NO ONE can kill ASIC's, just like NO ONE can kill GPU's.

I believe there will be a balance of all mining hardware, and that this balance will be maintained WELL into the future of mining. The fact that the head of nVidia himself believes that mining will be a core aspect of the business proves that the GPU mining will be alive and well MUCH deeper into the future than what anyone can conceive.

As for the Algo change, that is not difficult at all. We know, we have designed a few ourselves which will appear shortly in our coins. Getting around an adaptive ASIC/FPGA miner is!

#crysx

Dont have the misconception that high hashpower = secure.  I for one would rather a lower hashrate but many more people on the network.  And hashrate is reletive to the machines available to mine. 
legendary
Activity: 2940
Merit: 1091
--- ChainWorks Industries ---
I support the idea of protecting coin algorithms from the use of asics. But how can we force developers to do that. For them, it does not matter who will be able to mining. But for decentralization mining and survivability of the coin is of great importance. How to explain this to the developers, I don't know.

You cannot force anyone to do anything.

In fact, a great many developers are ASIC pro, not against, due to the high volume of hashrate that can be achieved to secure network through PoW.

My firm belief is that GPU mining will ALWAYS have a place, and that the largest component to this is the home user. However, for assurance that this will be the future, there needs to be stability in the GPU mining systems, and the current state of affairs in the GPU market is abhorrent. Almost NO decent GPU can be had, and the manufacturing giants are elevating the prices of GPU's much higher than they are actually worth. This is a side effect, and a negative one at that, of the market at play here. We know, we buy and supply the GPU's. Shortages are not the only problem, though price is a major one.

So ASIC's become much more attractive in that case, as they come close to the price of GPU's in the medium level ASIC market.

What does this mean on an overall level?

Simply that NO ONE can kill ASIC's, just like NO ONE can kill GPU's.

I believe there will be a balance of all mining hardware, and that this balance will be maintained WELL into the future of mining. The fact that the head of nVidia himself believes that mining will be a core aspect of the business proves that the GPU mining will be alive and well MUCH deeper into the future than what anyone can conceive.

As for the Algo change, that is not difficult at all. We know, we have designed a few ourselves which will appear shortly in our coins. Getting around an adaptive ASIC/FPGA miner is!

#crysx
legendary
Activity: 4326
Merit: 8950
'The right to privacy matters'
I support the idea of protecting coin algorithms from the use of asics. But how can we force developers to do that. For them, it does not matter who will be able to mining. But for decentralization mining and survivability of the coin is of great importance. How to explain this to the developers, I don't know.

If we don't get enough  developers  to sign on  for this idea  cpu and gpu mining does  die.

If that dies  we are fully dependent on Asic's  which means  centralized mining.

I don't  dislike  centralized mining.  My signature mentions  BTC as a highway  for trucks, bus's , cars, taxi's

I am certainly willing to have  'good' highways.

But with no one to travel on them they become worthless.

It maybe  that ETH  + BTC  + LTC  end up  as the centralized structure for cryptocoins fine that  works only if  the other coins  are

decentralized.
full member
Activity: 392
Merit: 137
I support the idea of protecting coin algorithms from the use of asics. But how can we force developers to do that. For them, it does not matter who will be able to mining. But for decentralization mining and survivability of the coin is of great importance. How to explain this to the developers, I don't know.
sr. member
Activity: 2142
Merit: 353
Xtreme Monster
Quote
krtschmr commented 7 minutes ago

Antminer F3 confirmed. First video of existence: https://i.imgur.com/fh5Z5gW.gifv

Based on the date it's 31st March which is today. So then, everybody RIP

either ETH Devs do something very very quick or crypto(mining) ompletely gets recked by china.

https://github.com/ethereum/EIPs/issues/958#issuecomment-377700697

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9L-1iG6mdJ8
legendary
Activity: 4326
Merit: 8950
'The right to privacy matters'

But for big coins it looks like devs are afraid to change anything

They have already considered on doing forks, XMR in a few weeks, ETH got a high votes for a fork to brick asics, X16r also can do forks

Hi @philipma1957 ,


miners do secure blockchains,
it does not matter what device is used.




It does matter as  Cryptos considered and supposedly a "decentralized" coin, imagine a large hashing power only owns by the big whales as they are the only one who can afford to buy the large portion of machines.

Quote
The value of a coin does not come out of "how" it is mined.


And the mining profitability suffered which leads to small miners also give up


See value  does come from how it is mined.  Think of gaming  I was a little too old to ever be a gamer.

 I predate pong and space invaders.
 I was a pinball player in the early 70's

But  if you game  a 1080ti system is affordable if you mine while you sleep.
Which means  world wide adoption  of gpu mining  at the grassroots level.

It must be preserved.  
I fuck around with Metroid  but he called the shot that asic's  were attacking gpu mining far earlier then I did.

It was a valuable thread he started .

The x16r thread has value.

and I want this thread to have value

I would love to see the x16r developer

say right now he will do

x20r in 4-6 months

with plans for

x24r in another 4-6 months after that

which  fully  will fuck  asics

and of course make  the raven coin worth dead solid money.



raven dev thread here

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/--2752467

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/--2752467
sr. member
Activity: 1008
Merit: 297
Grow with community

But for big coins it looks like devs are afraid to change anything

They have already considered on doing forks, XMR in a few weeks, ETH got a high votes for a fork to brick asics, X16r also can do forks

Hi @philipma1957 ,


miners do secure blockchains,
it does not matter what device is used.




It does matter as  Cryptos considered and supposedly a "decentralized" coin, imagine a large hashing power only owns by the big whales as they are the only one who can afford to buy the large portion of machines.

Quote
The value of a coin does not come out of "how" it is mined.


And the mining profitability suffered which leads to small miners also give up
legendary
Activity: 4326
Merit: 8950
'The right to privacy matters'
Hi @philipma1957 ,


miners do secure blockchains,
it does not matter what device is used.

The value of a coin does not come out of "how" it is mined.

Use case and adoption gives value.


Cheesy PanneKopp

You are missing the point, he is not talking about value of a coin.  He is talking about keeping gpu mining alive, and yes miners secure the blockchain but not when asic mining is a mainly centralized venture.  Gpu miners allow for easy entry for people to mine crypto.

Yes  and what  most people do not realize is every home in the world  should have  a good pc with a good card.

[That is my fuck you to Apple iPad and iPhone and no good pc option. which is why I ended up with  cryptocoins in the first place]



I still propose this and gpu mining  becomes a slightly more complex rebate for your machine/pc.

This makes adoption   worldwide
below is a 1750 usd pc if it earns 4 dollars a day

1 year later it earned 1460

pretty good rebate  and many  can go this route  we need this it is important

https://store.hp.com/us/en/cv/omen-gaming?jumpid=ma_dt_featured_na_2_171115#desktops



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sr. member
Activity: 2142
Merit: 353
Xtreme Monster
It seems the f3 can do 1500 mhs, that is 50 x rx 580.
sr. member
Activity: 465
Merit: 301
say
x16r  now
x20r   4-6 months later
x24r   4-6 months later
z28r   4-6 months later

They are already talking about your idea.

Quote
Arachnid commented 34 minutes ago •

@pipermerriam You're suggesting we pick algorithms we know aren't difficult for ASICs, and instead rely on switching them regularly to deter ASICs being deployed?

I don't think that's a viable process, because algorithm design can't be automated, and doing it manually consumes a lot of resources and introduces risk every time you introduce a new algorithm.

I was critiquing @naure's proposal, too, which explicitly claimed to be ASIC-resistant.

https://github.com/ethereum/EIPs/issues/958

And for the record, I want to be wrong but in the end I'm never wrong. Greedy people make me right hehe

Yes  but  greed  is also there for GPU builders and for intel and for mobo builders.

So if  they simply  push  for constant forks  asics go by by.
legendary
Activity: 3780
Merit: 1418
Hi @philipma1957 ,


miners do secure blockchains,
it does not matter what device is used.

The value of a coin does not come out of "how" it is mined.

Use case and adoption gives value.


Cheesy PanneKopp

You are missing the point, he is not talking about value of a coin.  He is talking about keeping gpu mining alive, and yes miners secure the blockchain but not when asic mining is a mainly centralized venture.  Gpu miners allow for easy entry for people to mine crypto.
sr. member
Activity: 2142
Merit: 353
Xtreme Monster
say
x16r  now
x20r   4-6 months later
x24r   4-6 months later
z28r   4-6 months later

They are already talking about your idea.

Quote
Arachnid commented 34 minutes ago •

@pipermerriam You're suggesting we pick algorithms we know aren't difficult for ASICs, and instead rely on switching them regularly to deter ASICs being deployed?

I don't think that's a viable process, because algorithm design can't be automated, and doing it manually consumes a lot of resources and introduces risk every time you introduce a new algorithm.

I was critiquing @naure's proposal, too, which explicitly claimed to be ASIC-resistant.

https://github.com/ethereum/EIPs/issues/958

And for the record, I want to be wrong but in the end I'm never wrong. Greedy people make me right hehe
sr. member
Activity: 391
Merit: 250
aka ...
Hi @philipma1957 ,


miners do secure blockchains,
it does not matter what device is used.

The value of a coin does not come out of "how" it is mined.

Use case and adoption gives value.


Cheesy PanneKopp
legendary
Activity: 2450
Merit: 1472
Let's support the idea guys or GPUs will really die and BITMAIN will dominate everything, centralization are coming

For RVN and X16r is easy to change the algo or improve, RVN born to fight against Asics

But for big coins it looks like devs are afraid to change anything
legendary
Activity: 4326
Merit: 8950
'The right to privacy matters'
I want to make Metroid wrong
he has  a thread
   
GPU mining will die in 2018!

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/gpu-mining-will-die-in-2018-2786298

To all developers of the major money coins  here is my idea in a nut shell


Here is the deal  cpu/gpu developers can crush asics  with  a 4-6 month built in fork  system for their coin.

Other then LTC/scrypt and BTC/sha256 no algo has much hashpower

so an asic will crush that algo.

the defense  would be   4-6 month forks  and adding  a second or third algo

say
x16r  now
x20r   4-6 months later
x24r   4-6 months later
z28r   4-6 months later

I have contacted x16r dev on his thread

x16r now
x18r 4-6 months
x20r 4-6 months
x22r 4-6 months

maybe good enoguh












or
xmr1
xmr2
xmr3
xmr4

or
zec1
zec2
zec3
zec4

or
eth1
eth2
eth3
eth4


this  would defend  cpu/gpu coins  from the  attack  of asics
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