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Topic: How to fix bitcoin - page 4. (Read 10311 times)

member
Activity: 112
Merit: 11
April 08, 2011, 12:12:24 AM
#32
The More You Know, the Less Money You Make.
I AM THE SMARTEST MAN ALIVE  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
sr. member
Activity: 434
Merit: 252
youtube.com/ericfontainejazz now accepts bitcoin
April 08, 2011, 12:10:06 AM
#31
You just contradicted yourself. Silver = gold = Bitcoin = commodity money.

silver = commodity
gold = commodity
wood = commodity
bitcoin = nada
Federal reserve notes = nada

Knowledge is Power. (K=P)
Time is Money. (T=M)
Power is Work over Time. (P=W/T)

Basic algebra tells us:
K = W/T
K = W/M
or Knowledge equals Work over Money.

Therefore:

The More You Know, the More Work You Do, and
The More You Know, the Less Money You Make.

(sorry, this doesn't relate to the current discussion, but while we're using equal signs to equate complex subjective ideas, I thought I would share this joke for a laugh.) Smiley
full member
Activity: 154
Merit: 100
April 07, 2011, 11:47:54 PM
#30
Lets get down to basics.

Anyone can assign value to anything.

If someone else also assigns value to the same thing, they can trade it for whatever else they assign value to.

It's simply a matter of scale as to how far this can go.

You do not need to add force (state) to the equation to make it true.

You do not need additional people (merchants) to assign value to the item to make it true.

Two people can create a system of money out of anything they desire. They are both happy and their system doesn't need to be fixed!

Sheesh...
sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 252
April 07, 2011, 11:30:37 PM
#29
Oh my god, you're right, Bitcoins have no value at all! That TV I just bought with them is worthless!!!

To be serious, Bitcoins are a commodity money.

Quote
Examples of commodities that have been used as mediums of exchange include gold, silver, copper, peppercorns, large stones (such as Rai stones), decorated belts, shells, alcohol, cigarettes, cannabis, candy, barley etc.

Quote
A key feature of commodity money is that the value is directly perceived by the users of this money, who recognize the utility or beauty of the tokens as they would recognize the goods themselves. That is, the effect of holding a token for a barrel of oil must be the same economically as actually having the barrel at hand.

There is no reason I can think of that a commodity money must be a physical object. Bitcoins otherwise fit the description.
hero member
Activity: 717
Merit: 501
April 07, 2011, 11:26:53 PM
#28
You just contradicted yourself. Silver = gold = Bitcoin = commodity money.

silver = commodity
gold = commodity
wood = commodity
bitcoin = nada
Federal reserve notes = nada
full member
Activity: 154
Merit: 100
sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 252
April 07, 2011, 10:46:32 PM
#26
You can go on youtube and watch "The Money Masters" and "The Secret of Oz".  If you ask Bill Still if gold based money is fiat he will say yes.  It only has value by government regulation or law.

Fallacy: argument from authority. Whoever this Bill Still guy is, he is wrong. Gold has value as money despite governments, not because of them.

Quote
Gold is just a yellow metal.  Bitcoin is not fiat, in fact it may be the only non fiat currency other than commodities.  You can take an ounce of silver go to Austrailia and get money for it.  Due to the demand for silver alone.

You just contradicted yourself. Silver = gold = Bitcoin = commodity money.

Quote
Shells were declared valuable by the tribe - the government - fiat.

Again, you misunderstand the normal meaning of the word fiat. You can't just redefine it to mean whatever you want and argue you are correct. Unless there was a state (an entity with a monopoly on the use of violence in a specific geographic area) that declared shells to have value, and backed those shells with its full faith and credit, then they were not a fiat currency, they were a commodity.
sr. member
Activity: 434
Merit: 252
youtube.com/ericfontainejazz now accepts bitcoin
April 07, 2011, 10:33:52 PM
#25
OMG, this has already been hashed out bazillion times...

Funny!

Imagine how old this kind of stuff gets to those of us who have been here a long time.

Time to get used to it.  There are ~8 billion people in this world who haven't heard of bitcoin yet.  And bitcoin's exponential growth rate is just beginning.  Some will embrace it without question.  Some will reject it outright.  But most people (myself included) will be curious, and start asking questions about it, and will point out what they think are fundamental flaws, and will post what they think are necessary modifications to improve the protocol.  We will learn to be patient and helpful, and alleviate their concerns by calmly explaining how the network and market are incentivized.  But yes...be prepared for the much anticipated hordes of steelhouses that will come.

BTW, we I suggest we augment the simple machine forum's source code to allow for the [facepalm] and [/facepalm] text modifiers...  Smiley
hero member
Activity: 717
Merit: 501
April 07, 2011, 10:10:00 PM
#24
Funny!  Imagine how old this kind of stuff gets to those of us who have been here a long time.

Being here a long time and seeing the same questions over is not an answer.  Mob rule is not reality they still burned witches in Salem.  I realize it all depends on merchants, if merchants leave bitcoin is done and there is no intrinsic value thus you have nothing.  So technically if the number of total merchants is rising so can bitcoin.

The answers that you seek are written in the forum's archives, as well as several different wiki's, at least one FAQ, and the technical white paper.  I'm more than happy to point you in the right direction if you are confused, and answer questions that arise from reading those documents.  However, neither myself nor anyone else who can answer those questions have the time to repeat ourselves for each newbie who misunderstands how the system works.  If you really wish to know and/or have this debate, then at least attempt to educate yourself on the details before you come to the table.

I would really appreciate if you send me to the best source.
hero member
Activity: 717
Merit: 501
April 07, 2011, 10:08:45 PM
#23
I am not here to be a troll.  Has there ever been a currency that was not commodity based or fiat?  Shells were fiat based.  You have to admit, coins decreed as valuable, with nothing behind them seem to be what they are intrinsically nothing.

Ah, I see the problem. You misunderstand the word fiat.

Quote from: Wikipedia
Fiat money is money that has value only because of government regulation or law. The term derives from the Latin fiat, meaning "let it be done", as such money is established by government decree. Where fiat money is used as currency, the term fiat currency is used.
Today, all national currencies are fiat currencies, including the US dollar, the euro, and all other reserve currencies. This trend began with the Nixon Shock of 1971, which ended the backing by precious metal of the U.S. dollar.

Shells, gold, and Bitcoin are not fiat because they are not declared valuable by a government. What would happen to the U.S. dollar if it wasn't backed by the "full faith and credit" (as if that is worth something) of the U.S. government? It would become worthless. What would happen to gold if the U.S. government stopped accepting it as payment? I bet practically nothing.

You can go on youtube and watch "The Money Masters" and "The Secret of Oz".  If you ask Bill Still if gold based money is fiat he will say yes.  It only has value by government regulation or law.  Gold is just a yellow metal.  Bitcoin is not fiat, in fact it may be the only non fiat currency other than commodities.  You can take an ounce of silver go to Austrailia and get money for it.  Due to the demand for silver alone.  

Shells were declared valuable by the tribe - the government - fiat.
sr. member
Activity: 504
Merit: 252
Elder Crypto God
April 07, 2011, 10:04:27 PM
#22
What is to prevent someone making a clone of bitcoin and calling it bbitcoin.

First-mover advantage.
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1010
April 07, 2011, 10:03:36 PM
#21
Funny!  Imagine how old this kind of stuff gets to those of us who have been here a long time.

Being here a long time and seeing the same questions over is not an answer.  Mob rule is not reality they still burned witches in Salem.  I realize it all depends on merchants, if merchants leave bitcoin is done and there is no intrinsic value thus you have nothing.  So technically if the number of total merchants is rising so can bitcoin.

The answers that you seek are written in the forum's archives, as well as several different wiki's, at least one FAQ, and the technical white paper.  I'm more than happy to point you in the right direction if you are confused, and answer questions that arise from reading those documents.  However, neither myself nor anyone else who can answer those questions have the time to repeat ourselves for each newbie who misunderstands how the system works.  If you really wish to know and/or have this debate, then at least attempt to educate yourself on the details before you come to the table.
hero member
Activity: 717
Merit: 501
April 07, 2011, 09:55:59 PM
#20
Funny!  Imagine how old this kind of stuff gets to those of us who have been here a long time.

Being here a long time and seeing the same questions over is not an answer.  Mob rule is not reality they still burned witches in Salem.  I realize it all depends on merchants, if merchants leave bitcoin is done and there is no intrinsic value thus you have nothing.  So technically if the number of total merchants is rising so can bitcoin.
sr. member
Activity: 406
Merit: 251
April 07, 2011, 09:54:36 PM
#19
What is to prevent someone making a clone of bitcoin and calling it bbitcoin.
Absolutely nothing at all.
sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 252
April 07, 2011, 09:52:44 PM
#18
I am not here to be a troll.  Has there ever been a currency that was not commodity based or fiat?  Shells were fiat based.  You have to admit, coins decreed as valuable, with nothing behind them seem to be what they are intrinsically nothing.

Ah, I see the problem. You misunderstand the word fiat.

Quote from: Wikipedia
Fiat money is money that has value only because of government regulation or law. The term derives from the Latin fiat, meaning "let it be done", as such money is established by government decree. Where fiat money is used as currency, the term fiat currency is used.
Today, all national currencies are fiat currencies, including the US dollar, the euro, and all other reserve currencies. This trend began with the Nixon Shock of 1971, which ended the backing by precious metal of the U.S. dollar.

Shells, gold, and Bitcoin are not fiat because they are not declared valuable by a government. What would happen to the U.S. dollar if it wasn't backed by the "full faith and credit" (as if that is worth something) of the U.S. government? It would become worthless. What would happen to gold if the U.S. government stopped accepting it as payment? I bet practically nothing.

edit... Another

Quote from: Wikipedia
Historically, money originated as commodity money, based on physical commodities such as cowrie shells, copper, gold, or silver, but fiat money is based solely on faith in the government issuing the money.

Bitcoin would fall into this category, commodity money, regardless of the fact that it is a designed commodity money.
hero member
Activity: 717
Merit: 501
April 07, 2011, 09:47:43 PM
#17
How would "more metals" back up a currency? Do you mean it would give value to a currency or make a currency more desirable? If yes, what gives value to those metals or makes them desirable? Or do you mean that limited availability of such metals would/could limit the amount of the available currency?

The melt value of a penny before 1982 is 2.7 cents and a value of a nickle in the US is about 7 cents.  That is the market rate of those metals.  The value is the worldwide demand for those metals to build stuff.  What is to prevent someone making a clone of bitcoin and calling it bbitcoin.  If each bitcoin was backed by 100 pennies, it would have a $2.70 value on the world exchange.  Thus owning the bitcoin you know you would get the pennies.
hero member
Activity: 717
Merit: 501
April 07, 2011, 09:39:31 PM
#16
What gives gold value? What gives silver value? What gives copper value? What gives anything value? People give it value. Period. If I see that bitcoin has properties that I can use, I value it. As long as there is a community that shares that opinion with me, it will have value.   What is your goal in trying to convince others that bitcoin has no value?

My goal is to see why bitcoin does not go to zero.  Gold silver copper are all actually all fiat currencies, the government gave it value and demanded its use.  Bill Still even said gold is a fiat currency.
hero member
Activity: 717
Merit: 501
April 07, 2011, 09:36:39 PM
#15
OMG, this has already been hashed out bazillion times...
Funny! Imagine how old this kind of stuff gets to those of us who have been here a long time.

I am not here to be a troll.  Has there ever been a currency that was not commodity based or fiat?  Shells were fiat based.  You have to admit, coins decreed as valuable, with nothing behind them seem to be what they are intrinsically nothing.
iya
member
Activity: 81
Merit: 10
April 07, 2011, 07:51:59 PM
#14
Bitcoins are based on nothing. It takes cpu or gpu time but you are are still creating money out of nothing.
The concern is valid, but with backing you need auditability and with that you loose anonymity and security.
There has been a well working 100% anonymous currency backed by 100% gold - now it's controlled by the government.

If the 21,000,000 bitcoin was based off say 100 pennies minted before 1981, you could say there will always be a vendor of last resort, you could convert your bitcoin for pennies.
...
The current bitcoin can be fixed by just demanding the $0.01 transaction costs go to buy wealth to back up the currency.
You can actually do that right now, with no changes to Bitcoin:
Just mine or buy a new block and claim to buy back every coin from that block for $1. If people believe that you'll honor your promise, these coins will trade at a premium whenever the market rate for normal Bitcoins is below $1.
You've just created Bimetallism inside the existing Bitcoin protocol!
sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 273
April 07, 2011, 06:34:21 PM
#13
Just one question for you steelhouse--what or who backed the money cowry?  There is plenty of precedent for currencies with no other use than as currencies.  All that is required is that they be limited in supply, fungible, and easy to transport.  As a purpose-built currency, BitCoin beats out cotton-linen pictures or little printed squares of plastic any day.  That's all it needs to succeed.

Shell money was fiat money. "In northern Australia, different shells were used by different tribes, one tribe's shell often being quite worthless in the eyes of another tribe."  Fiat money is money that has value only because of government regulation or law.
The money cowry was used in Africa under no particular jurisdiction in a purely p2p fashion.  If bitcoin proves as comparatively useful as the money cowry did in its day, it too won't need a backing or a fiat.
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