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Topic: How to NOT be a victim of a sting operation - page 3. (Read 7545 times)

rat
sr. member
Activity: 253
Merit: 250
February 07, 2014, 06:40:00 PM
#30
pretty much makes LocalBitcoins transactions illegal in Florida.
BULLSHIT.

Laundry may be a charge they attempt to tack on, but they never would have made the sting without the accessory to a crime part... They know better than we do that bitcoin isn't a currency so it can't be laundered.

My whole point was that they were busted because they were selling BTC to criminals. STOP SPREADING FUD, it scares the noobs.

maybe you should read the article again, dipshit.
legendary
Activity: 1050
Merit: 1002
February 07, 2014, 06:36:35 PM
#29
Running an unlicensed money transmission in Florida is illegal.
http://www.flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2011/560.125

That's what I'm trying to tell you. Bitcoin is not yet defined as money, either by state or federal.

This judge disagrees: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/08/federal-judge-bitcoin-a-currency-can-be-regulated-under-american-law/

Yes, I know about the Pirate case. It's different. It does start the outline of some legal precedent, but that's not the same as written law. Judges can't legislate only adjudicate. Also, there are two separate levels (fed/state).
legendary
Activity: 2506
Merit: 1030
Twitter @realmicroguy
February 07, 2014, 06:34:03 PM
#28
Running an unlicensed money transmission in Florida is illegal.
http://www.flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2011/560.125

That's what I'm trying to tell you. Bitcoin is not yet defined as money, either by state or federal.

This judge disagrees: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/08/federal-judge-bitcoin-a-currency-can-be-regulated-under-american-law/
legendary
Activity: 1050
Merit: 1002
February 07, 2014, 06:31:29 PM
#27
Running an unlicensed money transmission in Florida is illegal.
http://www.flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2011/560.125

That's what I'm trying to tell you. Bitcoin is not yet defined as money, either by state or federal. Think of it this way: if the people arrested were trading two wheelbarrows full of grass for $30K would they have been in violation as money transmitters?

The only reason they were arrested was because criminal intent was mentioned. Put that together with their high volume and unclear legal area for Bitcoin and the authorities seized their chance to clamp down and provide a chilling effect at the same time.
BCB
vip
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1002
BCJ
February 07, 2014, 06:29:50 PM
#26
So if I am reading that right would the following scenerio place ebayers in same bucket?

Potentially.  It is a matter of "fact and circumstances."

No clear cut rules yet. 
BCB
vip
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1002
BCJ
February 07, 2014, 06:28:18 PM
#25
Evidently you can buy and sell bitcoin for personal use.  Miner's can also sell bitcoin for personal use (electricity, rent, goods and services etc).  This activity does not require registration with Fincen.

However if you buy and sell bitcoin, "as a business" you could be seen as a "money transmitter" in some states.  The regulations and the clarification of these regulation are VERY vague.  

And if you buy and sell bitcoin with someone who is involved in criminal activity that definitely makes you complicit, even if you have NO knowledge of their activity.  

Wrong again.

I guess you're just pulling this stuff out of your arse. You can buy/sell bitcoin for your own benefit. That includes profit. The catch is it has to be your own benefit, ie, you can't buy/sell on behalf of clients (like exchanges). Again, that's federal.

As for U.S. states it is currently undefined. The arrests in Florida would not have happened, I'll almost guarantee, if there was no mention of criminal intent.

Running an unlicensed money transmission in Florida is illegal.
http://www.flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2011/560.125

This is also makes it a federal offence:

"is operated without an appropriate money transmitting license in a State where such operation is punishable as a misdemeanor or a felony under State law, whether or not the defendant knew that the operation was required to be licensed or that the operation was so punishable;"
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1960


full member
Activity: 208
Merit: 117
February 07, 2014, 06:26:55 PM
#24
So if I am reading that right would the following scenerio place ebayers in same bucket?

I.E. the folks selling Crypto for USD on ebay = violation?

If that's the case someone should dial ebay, cause they allow for Classified Ads on their site for people wanting to sell Crypto lol

I have seen 100k dogecoin go for 400+ dollars

http://www.ebay.com/itm/271379434523?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

 ... that means the person handling that transaction is committing a crime if they do it 25 times? (for those that cant multiply 25x400=10k)
legendary
Activity: 2912
Merit: 1060
February 07, 2014, 06:23:53 PM
#23
.
legendary
Activity: 1050
Merit: 1002
February 07, 2014, 06:23:47 PM
#22
Evidently you can buy and sell bitcoin for personal use.  Miner's can also sell bitcoin for personal use (electricity, rent, goods and services etc).  This activity does not require registration with Fincen.

However if you buy and sell bitcoin, "as a business" you could be seen as a "money transmitter" in some states.  The regulations and the clarification of these regulation are VERY vague.  

And if you buy and sell bitcoin with someone who is involved in criminal activity that definitely makes you complicit, even if you have NO knowledge of their activity.  

Wrong again.

I guess you're just pulling this stuff out of your arse. You can buy/sell bitcoin for your own benefit. That includes profit. The catch is it has to be your own benefit, ie, you can't buy/sell on behalf of clients (like exchanges). Again, that's federal.

As for U.S. states it is currently undefined. The arrests in Florida would not have happened, I'll almost guarantee, if there was no mention of criminal intent.

BCB
vip
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1002
BCJ
February 07, 2014, 06:20:34 PM
#21
Yep.

The complaint against the guy who was arrested a couple weeks ago (not Shrem) said that an undercover informant attempted to buy some Bitcoin and said "I need these Bitcoin because I've got my eye on a sweet bag of cocaine on Silk Road" or some similarly ridiculously stupid thing.

The seller ignored the request and never sold him coins (but they still mention it in the complaint which is interesting)

What guy? Someone on reddit? They still charged him with it even if he ignored it?


No the guy who was arrested same day as Shrem, same, case, same complaint...I don't recall his name

Robert Faiella (BTCKing)
sr. member
Activity: 404
Merit: 250
February 07, 2014, 06:19:33 PM
#20
Yep.

The complaint against the guy who was arrested a couple weeks ago (not Shrem) said that an undercover informant attempted to buy some Bitcoin and said "I need these Bitcoin because I've got my eye on a sweet bag of cocaine on Silk Road" or some similarly ridiculously stupid thing.

The seller ignored the request and never sold him coins (but they still mention it in the complaint which is interesting)

What guy? Someone on reddit? They still charged him with it even if he ignored it?


No the guy who was arrested same day as Shrem, same, case, same complaint...I don't recall his name
BCB
vip
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1002
BCJ
February 07, 2014, 06:17:03 PM
#19
From what I can gather from reading this thread (and the articles), it seems that you can have BTC and sell it on something like Coinbase for USD, or you can use it to make purchases on sites that accept BTC. But you can't sell BTC to another person as you would be functioning as a form of money transmitter which in that technical legal mumbo-jumbo makes sense. Is there somebody that can confirm the veracity of these statements or am I way off base?

If I am reading this correctly, then where does gifting BTC fall under? Additionally, if you traded BTC for something like an alt-currency without the use of a regulation-compliant exchange where does that fall under?

Evidently you can buy and sell bitcoin for personal use.  Miner's can also sell bitcoin for personal use (electricity, rent, goods and services etc).  This activity does not require registration with Fincen.

However if you buy and sell bitcoin, "as a business" you could be seen as a "money transmitter" in some states.  The regulations and the clarification of these regulation are VERY vague.  

And if you buy and sell bitcoin with someone who is involved in criminal activity that definitely makes you complicit, even if you have NO knowledge of their activity.  
full member
Activity: 205
Merit: 100
February 07, 2014, 06:06:28 PM
#18
Yep.

The complaint against the guy who was arrested a couple weeks ago (not Shrem) said that an undercover informant attempted to buy some Bitcoin and said "I need these Bitcoin because I've got my eye on a sweet bag of cocaine on Silk Road" or some similarly ridiculously stupid thing.

The seller ignored the request and never sold him coins (but they still mention it in the complaint which is interesting)

What guy? Someone on reddit? They still charged him with it even if he ignored it?
legendary
Activity: 1050
Merit: 1002
February 07, 2014, 06:04:39 PM
#17
Doesn't have to be defined as currency.  If you are transmitting bitcoin, "as a business" you are subject to Federal AMK/KYC/CFT/CIP regulations and State Money Transmitter regulations.  State to State regulation vary but clearly Florida has taken a stand.
...

That's not how it works, and is why FinCEN issued "guidance" and administrative rulings. The most recent is here:

http://www.fincen.gov/news_room/nr/pdf/20140130.pdf

Quote
The second [administrative ruling] states that a company purchasing and selling convertible
virtual currency as an investment exclusively for the company’s benefit is not a money
transmitter.

Again, that's federal not state, but realize the two are separate. States so far have not clarified the legal classification on Bitcoin. That's important. New York may be the first to do so, which is why there has been so much focus there recently.
legendary
Activity: 896
Merit: 1000
February 07, 2014, 06:01:22 PM
#16
From what I can gather from reading this thread (and the articles), it seems that you can have BTC and sell it on something like Coinbase for USD, or you can use it to make purchases on sites that accept BTC. But you can't sell BTC to another person as you would be functioning as a form of money transmitter which in that technical legal mumbo-jumbo makes sense. Is there somebody that can confirm the veracity of these statements or am I way off base?

If I am reading this correctly, then where does gifting BTC fall under? Additionally, if you traded BTC for something like an alt-currency without the use of a regulation-compliant exchange where does that fall under?
BCB
vip
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1002
BCJ
February 07, 2014, 05:46:23 PM
#15
Of course bitcoin isn't money by law and therefore this can't be considered "Money laundering"

This is patently NOT true.

Bitcoin according to FinCEN is "other value that substitutes for currency" as per FinCEN's FINAL RULE:  Bank Secrecy Act Regulations; Definitions and Other Regulations Relating to Money Services Businesses
76 C.F.R. 43585

***
The regulatory definition of ‘‘money transmission services’’ includes the phrase ‘‘or other value that substitutes for currency’’ to state that businesses that accept stored value or currency equivalents as a funding source and transmit that value are providing money transmission services.
***

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2011-07-21/pdf/2011-18309.pdf

The FinCEN guidance is federal not state, and it doesn't define Bitcoin as a currency. This charge is apparently in violation of Florida state law which prohibits “currency or payment instruments exceeding $300 but less than $20,000 in any 12-month period”.

To my knowledge no state has declared Bitcoin is currency. It hasn't been declared a 'payment instrument' either. If these people met to transfer two wheelbarrows full of grass in exchange for 30K would the arrest have been made?

We need some lawyers on this. The State/vested interests are clearly starting to push back on Bitcoin now, probably betting individuals by themselves won't have super legal defense resources.

Doesn't have to be defined as currency.  If you are transmitting bitcoin, "as a business" you are subject to Federal AMK/KYC/CFT/CIP regulations and State Money Transmitter regulations.  State to State regulation vary but clearly Florida has taken a stand.

YES we do need to rally but unfortunately as a decentralized movement there is no centralized effort. You have The Bitcoin Foundation and dozens of other foundations and groups popping up daily.  If "Bitcoin" were a centralized company, you can be certain that millions of that 10 Billion money supply would have been spend on Lawyers and Lobbyists and efforts to clarify or change state and federal regulations.

As it is we have to rely on the outcome of these current cases to see where the chips will fall.

 
legendary
Activity: 1050
Merit: 1002
February 07, 2014, 05:37:39 PM
#14
Of course bitcoin isn't money by law and therefore this can't be considered "Money laundering"

This is patently NOT true.

Bitcoin according to FinCEN is "other value that substitutes for currency" as per FinCEN's FINAL RULE:  Bank Secrecy Act Regulations; Definitions and Other Regulations Relating to Money Services Businesses
76 C.F.R. 43585

***
The regulatory definition of ‘‘money transmission services’’ includes the phrase ‘‘or other value that substitutes for currency’’ to state that businesses that accept stored value or currency equivalents as a funding source and transmit that value are providing money transmission services.
***

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2011-07-21/pdf/2011-18309.pdf

The FinCEN guidance is federal not state, and it doesn't define Bitcoin as a currency. This charge is apparently in violation of Florida state law which prohibits “currency or payment instruments exceeding $300 but less than $20,000 in any 12-month period”.

To my knowledge no state has declared Bitcoin is currency. It hasn't been declared a 'payment instrument' either. If these people met to transfer two wheelbarrows full of grass in exchange for 30K would the arrest have been made?

We need some lawyers on this. The State/vested interests are clearly starting to push back on Bitcoin now, probably betting individuals by themselves won't have super legal defense resources.

EDIT: in fact FinCEN/Treasury just confirmed that miners and businesses that buy and sell virtual currencies purely as an investment will not be considered money transmitters. (of course, that's federal level)
BCB
vip
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1002
BCJ
February 07, 2014, 05:30:07 PM
#13
If I go to a home hardware store, buy a hammer and tell the cashier offhandedly that I'll be killing someone with said hammer, would the cashier be an accessory to murder since she didn't go to the authorities about it and let me buy the hammer anyways?

You are not required to have a state license in Florida to buy a hammer (yet).
BCB
vip
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1002
BCJ
February 07, 2014, 05:28:39 PM
#12
Either way, a great way to not incriminate yourself is to not know the true intentions of the other party.

That is patently NOT true.

Ask Doug Jackson of e-gold about that one.

That is why the US has extensive Know Your Customer (KYC) rules.
full member
Activity: 168
Merit: 100
February 07, 2014, 05:24:46 PM
#11
Either way, a great way to not incriminate yourself is to not know the true intentions of the other party.

From an agent talking about what he'll do with BTC to the actual arrest, I feel like maybe the agent was saying a lot more than just "I'll be buying stolen credit cards, lol".

My knowledge in law isn't the best but maybe someone can clarify this: If I go to a home hardware store, buy a hammer and tell the cashier offhandedly that I'll be killing someone with said hammer, would the cashier be an accessory to murder since she didn't go to the authorities about it and let me buy the hammer anyways?

It's an extreme analogy, but still. You can use BTC for a bunch of different things. Same with a hammer. The intent being known during the transaction shouldn't have to make you a part of the crime...
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