How would Bitconia look like? - page 2.

Silberman

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Quote from: Darker45 on September 15, 2021, 11:29:23 PM

I beg to disagree. Bitcoin doesn't need a country but a country might need Bitcoin. It is probably enough that the online world could be like a country for Bitcoin communities. It is a world where borders are almost nonexistent. Commerce and communication could easily thrive online. That's away from a specific mass of land that has specific set of rules and individual rulers.

But if you think Bitcoin does need a country, why not start with a country that has already shown its support to Bitcoin? That's an easy start. There's already the Bitcoin Beach as a microcosm of a Bitcoin country. Perhaps El Salvador will become one someday. But it needs to attract Bitcoin supporters all over the world. The citizens of El Salvador, more than any other, should be the first ones to see the benefits of Bitcoin instituted in the country's operation. Otherwise, it is bound to fail.

I really think that is what the president of El Salvador is trying to achieve, he is trying to make his county to epicenter of the bitcoin world, I do not know if he is going to become successful but it is a bet worth taking, after all there have been examples on the past of countries breaking away from the world order of the time and the introduction of a strong form of money was one of the cornerstones of their success, so I have high hopes for the experiment that is currently going on at El Salvador.

lixer

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Quote from: paxmao on September 11, 2021, 05:03:56 PM

Some people may thing that there are countries that would do better to adopt bitcoin as legal tender, just like in El Salvador, and in many others bitcoin is widely used for fear of the economic and authoritarian policies of the governing juntas.

However, I am inclined to think that bitcoin needs a country. The value of bitcoin, the community and the influence that exerts could potentially make that possible when bitcoin reaches an even higher valuation (perhaps it would be possible even now). How would Bitconia look like? How would we get there?

I imagine bitconia doesn't even need a land. You might be confused as how that would work, but if we could just show that we own somewhere, doesn't matter where, if we could have just one dot on the map, not enough for even one person to live, but build a nation there and convince other nations that it is a nation. Then we could just have global reach to it, I could be a bitconia citizen living in some other nation by that logic. So yes, I would still be paying taxes to the nation I am living sort of speak, but since my job will be in bitconia the tax will be there, the tax I pay here would be like for buying stuff, not my income.

All the exchanges could be there, my bank could be there, everything could be there and I would have to get out of my house to be a bitconia citizen. That is why I believe that even a single tiny rock on somewhere could be enough as long as we grow big enough to get other nations acknowledge us.

dkbit98

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Quote from: DooMAD on September 14, 2021, 05:59:37 AM

I don't think the creation part is the main problem. It's how you run the country once you have it. How do you determine foreign policy and trade? How do you interact with other nations?

I agree with you that countries are changing all the time and if you look at the map of Europe it changed a lot in few hundred years, some countries don't exist anymore and others are created.
How is Iran and other countries that are under some form of sanctions operate in the world? They use Bitcoin among other things for trading and earning profit from mining.

Quote from: DooMAD on September 14, 2021, 05:59:37 AM

How do you fund public services and policing your borders? Or do you have a country that simply doesn't have public services? And how you stop the new government becoming corrupt? That's the trickiest one. Money and power create influence. Influence is easy to abuse.

We tried all possible forms of governments and they all pretty much suck, including monarchy, democracy and dictatorship, so why can't we try some form of semi-anarchy.
If there is no government, there is nothing that can be corrupted, and roads will still be built even without standard form of government, that is known to be prone to be lazy and corrupt, but if people really need something they will make it.
Borders are important only as much as people are willing to defend them from enemies, you can have best army in the world and still be invaded and destroyed.

Quote from: DooMAD on September 14, 2021, 05:59:37 AM

There would be so many ways an experiment like that could fail. I just don't think it's viable. Too many people would be looking to exploit the situation for personal gain.

I could argue that all previous government experiments failed, including one we are all living now.

Ucy

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I think the Network is already an independent body existing in cyberspace. It should be seen as a Autonomous Nation which works best for nomads or mobile users. That will be more compatible with its ideals

The Sceptical Chymist

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Quote from: hatshepsut93 on September 11, 2021, 06:07:55 PM

Why would it need a country? Bitcoin was designed to operate without leaders, without centralized organizations to govern or support it. If you will make Bitcoin reliant on a country, you would only weaken it, because the country could be sanctioned or invaded.

But it'd be so nice if there were a country where bitcoin was the only form of currency and where the government (and there would have to be one) wasn't so big or as intrusive as existing governments.

Unfortunately, human nature is responsible for the way our governments are now, which is why I seriously doubt there could ever be a utopian society/country. It would be silly to even try to create one, because I have no doubt that it would eventually wind up being as bad or even worse than anything we have today. And given how many scammers there are in crypto, can you imagine how much crime there would be? That would require law enforcement and more government, and.....it just wouldn't work.

It's nice to dream, though.

kryptqnick

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Like many others here, I don't think we need a country where everything is about Bitcoin. I don't like this idea because it's very unrealistic and because it's very local. A country is something that is locked on specific land, has specific rules and main languages, and this means that even if we build it perfectly and somehow get the UN to recognize it, it will still be unavailable to so many people who live in other parts of the world and cannot simply relocate. Instead, we need favorable regulations in the US, China and the EU, big companies becoming pro-Bitcoin and accepting it as payment, and tech-savvy people working on ways to make Bitcoin usage as comfortable and as cheap (in terms of the fees) as possible. Then small businesses will follow, and so will many countries.

so98nn

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Higher valuation? Sounds crazy because bitcoin is worth 40K USD plus and moving back and forth these days. I am not sure how much more value it needs to prove itself. Because last time we check Gold was worth and popular of all even when it was worth few dollars back in time. The rare nature of the gold applies to bitcoin too and we call it as digital era gold.

I am referencing gold specifically because there has to be some assumptions for proving the point in solid ways. I think bitcoin has become thing of everyone's assumption now. For me bitcoin has achieved good value in my mind, I respect it and I can't wait for countries to accept it. I own it, I use it on routine basis and I am happy with that.

Darker45

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I beg to disagree. Bitcoin doesn't need a country but a country might need Bitcoin. It is probably enough that the online world could be like a country for Bitcoin communities. It is a world where borders are almost nonexistent. Commerce and communication could easily thrive online. That's away from a specific mass of land that has specific set of rules and individual rulers.

But if you think Bitcoin does need a country, why not start with a country that has already shown its support to Bitcoin? That's an easy start. There's already the Bitcoin Beach as a microcosm of a Bitcoin country. Perhaps El Salvador will become one someday. But it needs to attract Bitcoin supporters all over the world. The citizens of El Salvador, more than any other, should be the first ones to see the benefits of Bitcoin instituted in the country's operation. Otherwise, it is bound to fail.

LUCKMCFLY

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I like the approach under which a whole country takes only the Bitcoin economy, that FIAT money exists in the same way as the dollar, Eur, among others, but I think that the economy based on BTC, its banks and organizations would be entities much more serious than those that exist now, if everything is based on the price of BTC, the economy would have another meaning, that is, when we go to buy a market everything would be in terms of mBTC, and people's thinking changes, because already A value in FIAT would not be taken into account, but in mBTC and this would give a change at the mental level, the value of FIAT is changing due to its inflation, while BTC does not, that would give credits at higher bank level but it would become a A double-edged sword, since a credit made in BTC is different from doing it in USD, unless the amount is established in USD and it is paid in BTC, I think that there the economy would improve to a great extent.

paxmao

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Just to make everyone aware of how "easy" is to create a "country" when your only need is to have a favourable jurisdiction for business, I would like to remind everyone of the existance of projects such as this:

https://sealandgov.org

This is sealand, and you can become a citizen. To be honest, I do not know how serious the owners / promoters are about having actual citizens, but for now you can be a lord or lady at a cheap price, at least to provide moral support to the idea behind it. Jokes apart, with the power of bitcoin behind, this is not a dream at all.

SquallLeonhart

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Quote from: ILuckyGuyI on September 14, 2021, 02:24:20 AM

I don't think that Bitcoin needs any country. And I don't support the idea that Bitcoin must be the global currency. Yeah, Bitcoin can be a really good choice as legal tender for underdeveloped and developing countries to maybe make their economy get better. However, if we see Bitcoin being the legal tender of all the countries in the world, that's a big problem. The reasons are like this to me:

- High volatility
- Limited supply

A highly volatile currency can cause economic rout. And the limited supply which is 21 million can't be enough for everyone in that case I think.

I agree with you. Bitcoin was created to be an international global thing, a currency that helps everyone who is tired of having centralized financial world where wealthy people get tax cuts and poor people are put to jail for not paying their debt. Crypto allows people to be equal and if we end up having a city or a nation for bitcoin then it would destroy the whole idea, why would we have one nation when we can simply just have the whole world?

Right now, bitcoin is the whole world, we live and breathe crypto without having to move out of our houses. I have been a remote worker for the past 5+ years and I am quite happy about it as well, why would I want to move to a newly founded nation just because I use bitcoins?

Jawhead999

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If Bitconia or Bitcoin's country exist I believe the citizens are poor since many rich people will not go there as privacy is useless, it also increase the chance you'll get $5 wrench attack too. I don't really see the major advantages of Bitconia, what I think is gangster and robbery will be around there... it just make Bitcoin looks more bad.

Quote from: ILuckyGuyI on September 14, 2021, 02:24:20 AM

And the limited supply which is 21 million can't be enough for everyone in that case I think.

It's enough, each people only need 0.2 Bitcoin to survive around 1-5 years (depends where you live) so 105 Million citizens can live normal.

DooMAD

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Quote from: davis196 on September 14, 2021, 01:44:04 AM

So you want a brand new country to be created?With the sole purpose of having Bitcoin as national currency?Creating a country with the one and only purpose of using a currency sounds like a dumb idea to me.
A country needs territory and population.Can you find some free territory on the map?Probably Antarctica or the desert of Sahara or somewhere inside Mongolia? Grin

To play devil's advocate, territory probably isn't the biggest concern. Regions threaten to secede from their parent nation all the time. If you managed to get enough Bitcoin users to live in once place, that part might be doable. I don't think the creation part is the main problem. It's how you run the country once you have it. How do you determine foreign policy and trade? How do you interact with other nations? How do you fund public services and policing your borders? Or do you have a country that simply doesn't have public services? And how you stop the new government becoming corrupt? That's the trickiest one. Money and power create influence. Influence is easy to abuse.

There would be so many ways an experiment like that could fail. I just don't think it's viable. Too many people would be looking to exploit the situation for personal gain.

ILuckyGuyI

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I don't think that Bitcoin needs any country. And I don't support the idea that Bitcoin must be the global currency. Yeah, Bitcoin can be a really good choice as legal tender for underdeveloped and developing countries to maybe make their economy get better. However, if we see Bitcoin being the legal tender of all the countries in the world, that's a big problem. The reasons are like this to me:

- High volatility
- Limited supply

A highly volatile currency can cause economic rout. And the limited supply which is 21 million can't be enough for everyone in that case I think.

davis196

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Quote from: paxmao on September 11, 2021, 05:03:56 PM

Some people may thing that there are countries that would do better to adopt bitcoin as legal tender, just like in El Salvador, and in many others bitcoin is widely used for fear of the economic and authoritarian policies of the governing juntas.

However, I am inclined to think that bitcoin needs a country. The value of bitcoin, the community and the influence that exerts could potentially make that possible when bitcoin reaches an even higher valuation (perhaps it would be possible even now). How would Bitconia look like? How would we get there?

So you want a brand new country to be created?With the sole purpose of having Bitcoin as national currency?Creating a country with the one and only purpose of using a currency sounds like a dumb idea to me.
A country needs territory and population.Can you find some free territory on the map?Probably Antarctica or the desert of Sahara or somewhere inside Mongolia? Grin

Bitcoin isn't supposed to be local,it has to be global.Locking Bitcoin inside one country would mean that the other countries will find another reason to ban Bitcoin.

Poker Player

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Quote from: hatshepsut93 on September 11, 2021, 06:07:55 PM

If you will make Bitcoin reliant on a country, you would only weaken it, because the country could be sanctioned or invaded.

It wouldn't rely on that country more than it relies on El Salvador nowadays.

Quote from: paxmao on September 12, 2021, 04:26:06 AM

I can tell that many people on this forum are unhappy about the treatment that bitcoin has in term of taxes and restriction. Those that have a significant amount may be interested in living in a crypto friendly jurisdiction and that is simply not possible in many countries. These people could potentially benefit from creating their own jurisdiction, based on the principles of self-sovereignty, crypto friendliness,...

I'm surprised you would say this, as I understand you have a more social democratic view of economics and politics than I do, and you are positing a sort of tax haven where people who have a lot of Bitcoin could escape.

On the other hand, this would not necessarily be the case either. I do understand that if the country were formed, it would initially have low taxes, but there is no guarantee that in time a socialist would come to power who would increase public spending, put more regulations and more taxes. That the only legal tender was Bitcoin does not prevent a politician from putting high taxes. What happens is that since with Bitcoin it is more difficult to know what you have/earn, taxes would have to be indirect taxes.

Quote from: Lucius on September 12, 2021, 05:56:22 AM

Apart from the fact that Bitcoin would be the only legal tender in that country, in order to trade with the rest of the world, that country would again have to have money reserves in other internationally recognized currencies - unless it is 100% self-sufficient, which is impossible.

You don't have to. Nowadays you exchange currencies at the click of a button. Not to mention that it won't be long before we have a digital dollar, digital euro, etc.

Quote from: Lucius on September 12, 2021, 05:56:22 AM

In addition, I agree that any centralization of such proportions is bad for Bitcoin because it creates a central entity that can be held accountable for what Bitcoin represents. Satoshi, in my humble opinion, decided to remove himself as a central figure for this very reason, and that is why Bitcoin is such a success.

I do not agree with that. Bitconia would not centralize Bitcoin in the same way that El Salvador has not. It would still be just as decentralized.

hatshepsut93

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Quote from: paxmao on September 12, 2021, 04:26:06 AM

While your argument is true, as things are now, bitcoin users are highly dependent on regulations. You can declare yourself to be "decentralised", but you would still need to abide by the regulations of the place you live in. Having a place where like-minded people share your values may help that vision become true.

The idea is to make sure that those regulations are aligned with your values and ideas. I can tell that many people on this forum are unhappy about the treatment that bitcoin has in term of taxes and restriction. Those that have a significant amount may be interested in living in a crypto friendly jurisdiction and that is simply not possible in many countries. These people could potentially benefit from creating their own jurisdiction, based on the principles of self-sovereignty, crypto friendliness,...

Every group of people with radical ideas dreams about establishing their small country of like-minded citizens, but that's not going to work. It's very-very expensive to try to create a country from scratch, and most of the land in this world already belongs to some governments who would simply not allow creation of new states.

If Bitcoin is destined to become popular, then we'll simply have more countries follow the footsteps of El Salvador.

Silberman

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Quote from: hatshepsut93 on September 11, 2021, 06:07:55 PM

Why would it need a country? Bitcoin was designed to operate without leaders, without centralized organizations to govern or support it. If you will make Bitcoin reliant on a country, you would only weaken it, because the country could be sanctioned or invaded.

Bitcoin only needs one thing - more users. And to get more users it should become less volatile and make some technical improvements.

It was not weird back in the day for people to speculate that in order for what is happening at El Salvador to happen anywhere the best option was for rich people in bitcoin to create their own country, obviously it was something impossible but it is not the first time I have heard of something like this, and about the topic, I think that what we are seeing at El Salvador is enough, people will begin to use bitcoin when they realize they can get cheaper fees when it comes to remittance services and that they can even buy more products and other stuff when the price goes up, eventually some whales will begin to move there and this is will benefit the economy of the country as well, we just need to give it a little bit of time for all of this to happen.

fiulpro

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Quote from: paxmao on September 11, 2021, 05:03:56 PM

Some people may thing that there are countries that would do better to adopt bitcoin as legal tender, just like in El Salvador, and in many others bitcoin is widely used for fear of the economic and authoritarian policies of the governing juntas.

However, I am inclined to think that bitcoin needs a country. The value of bitcoin, the community and the influence that exerts could potentially make that possible when bitcoin reaches an even higher valuation (perhaps it would be possible even now). How would Bitconia look like? How would we get there?

What if the whole world is Bitcoin's country and rather than picking one of two we can actually pick plenty and that would definately keep us closer to a *one world currency as well*

One world - One currency
One investment

Things might take a while but I do think we are already seeing some efforts on the side of people for sure. For efamp Ukraine recently. The have to understand that bitcoins is something they would definately need for the future so might as well be useful and careful.

For me it would be a big connected economy hands down. Waiting for that to happen.

Kakmakr

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In a perfect world, people living in "Bitconia" would mostly work "remotely" from there for other countries that would be paying them in Bitcoin. You will see from previous attempts in doing this, that no country will allow for a sovereign country to exist.. within the boundaries of another country. So you can start with a small "townhouse" complex... where you can have a "Bitcoin Only" market place and entertainment area.... and grow things from there. (You pay rent in Bitcoin for the developers ...also rates and utilities and the owner or management body convert that into Fiat to pay the municipality) Roll Eyes

This way... no laws or regulations are broken... and you can have a group of people using Bitcoin as a Currency..... within this development. Wink

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