How would Bitconia look like? - page 3.

uneng

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Quote from: paxmao on September 11, 2021, 05:03:56 PM

How would Bitconia look like? How would we get there?

The closest real experiment to this concept is Liberstad. To get there you can just fly to Norway and make your way to this community.

However I can't find any recent updates about this project. By 2019 there was the promise Liberstad would become the first crypto private city in the world, without any central authority or government. They started selling pieces of land in 2018 for Bitcoins, but one year later they have created their own crypto currency, City Coin, to be used as official and only currency inside the domains of Liberstad.

In my opinion there is a big contradiction between speech and practice, because if people are enforced to use an altcoin as currency there is no difference to another administration models. However, it's not an exclusivity of Liberstad. I think any society which tries to organize themselves in a 100% private or decentralized way will contradict their words through their practices sooner or later.

Kong Hey Pakboy

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Quote from: DooMAD on September 12, 2021, 07:47:51 AM

So the idea isn't necessarily that it would be beneficial for Bitcoin, but would be beneficial for users of Bitcoin? I guess I can see the appeal, despite the part where I'd rather see fewer arbitrary lines on the map, not more. And, as others have alluded to, nothing operates in a bubble. Such a nation would have all manner of hurdles to overcome on the world stage. On the whole, I don't think such an idea is feasible. At least not yet, anyway.

Good luck with acquiring the land, the government will definitely intervene and if you're reclamation is violent then you will be met with a violent force, I don't think that we will ever see it from happening, maybe if we create an artificial island, we might be able to do this thing.

worle1bm

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Quote from: paxmao on September 12, 2021, 04:26:06 AM

While your argument is true, as things are now, bitcoin users are highly dependent on regulations. You can declare yourself to be "decentralised", but you would still need to abide by the regulations of the place you live in. Having a place where like-minded people share your values may help that vision become true.

The regulation in favour of bitcoin are becoming necessary for users who want to invest or trade in it because if the country ban the usage the people would not be able to trade in such coins like bitcoin as they could be punished and all the exchanges would shut down there but speaking contrary to it bitcoin is designed in such a manner that government will still not be able to control it as how come they would thrive the usage of decentralised currencies and what they can do is tax the capital gains out of it in whatever percentage they want.But still bitcoin would be at the top and you can see that time soon even with regulations or not.

stompix

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No matter what you use as a currency in a country, no matter the protocols, the automatization, the transparency, the ones deciding those ratios and levels are still humans. And we have the perfect experiment, the Bitcoin Foundation, Peter Vessenes, Charlie Shrem, Mark Karpeles, Roger Ver, now, how much faith would a country run by the same founding fathers?

Looking at the scam section, looking at all the dama in meta, taking into account this is still only a forum of opinions, and when projecting this to real-life adding the fact that the future colonist of Bitcoins would have little else in common other than Bitcoin, maybe not liking to do what they are told by authority lacking any ties between them like other nations, such as language or race, how do you think a nation like this would be able to be governed? It won't!

tyz

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Quote from: paxmao on September 11, 2021, 05:03:56 PM

Some people may thing that there are countries that would do better to adopt bitcoin as legal tender, just like in El Salvador, and in many others bitcoin is widely used for fear of the economic and authoritarian policies of the governing juntas.

In the past, this question has been discussed and it was largely theoretical.

Now, however, with El Salvador, we recently have a country that is actually carrying out this experiment.

Therefore, we should observe the development there over the next 1-2 years and if this experiment succeeds, then other countries in which similar problems exist will certainly be open to it.

electronicash

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El Salvador isn't planning to phase out USD in their economy, they know they will still be needing a currency that is acceptable for all.

Bitconia is like completely isolating Bitcoin users in one area, I wonder how a government could actually govern the people as they are all free. unless the government holds all everyone's data including the wallets linked to each profile. El Salvador has it planned with Chivo.

Ozero

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Quote from: paxmao on September 11, 2021, 05:03:56 PM

Some people may thing that there are countries that would do better to adopt bitcoin as legal tender, just like in El Salvador, and in many others bitcoin is widely used for fear of the economic and authoritarian policies of the governing juntas.

However, I am inclined to think that bitcoin needs a country. The value of bitcoin, the community and the influence that exerts could potentially make that possible when bitcoin reaches an even higher valuation (perhaps it would be possible even now). How would Bitconia look like? How would we get there?

Now any territory is already occupied by people and therefore, even from this point of view, it is almost impossible to have a separate country for bitcoins. Unless Elon Musk can do something on Mars. We already see the example of the creation of the state of Israel. It was created by the UN decision, if I am not mistaken, in 1948 and are still at war with neighbors over territorial claims.
However, a common means of payment cannot unite people into one nation. I remember that a similar thread was already created on this forum and the majority spoke negatively to this idea.

meanwords

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Quote from: paxmao on September 11, 2021, 05:03:56 PM

Some people may thing that there are countries that would do better to adopt bitcoin as legal tender, just like in El Salvador, and in many others bitcoin is widely used for fear of the economic and authoritarian policies of the governing juntas.

However, I am inclined to think that bitcoin needs a country. The value of bitcoin, the community and the influence that exerts could potentially make that possible when bitcoin reaches an even higher valuation (perhaps it would be possible even now). How would Bitconia look like? How would we get there?

I don't really see the point of getting a dedicated country for Bitcoin though because Bitcoin doesn't need any country to operate and doesn't need any authority in order to it to function, that's the beauty of decentralization of Bitcoin. Although there needs to have some regulations to take in place. What I think is countries should accept Bitcoin legally like how El Salvador did.

dkbit98

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El Salvador may accepted Bitcoin as legal tender but it's still early stages there, most people are afraid of using Bitcoin for anything and wallet they use is centralized government created called Chivo, so it's not all perfect like it seems.
Some imagined libertarian country called Bitconia could be just one more failed utopian or dystopian project and it wouldn't solve many problems humans have in todays society.
Bitcoin should be all about separation of money from state so I don't think that we need separate country for BTC, we just need other countries to accept it as secondary currency and that would be enough for now.
People should have the freedom to choose Bitcoin or some alternative payment method, and nobody should be forced to use just single form of money.

DooMAD

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So the idea isn't necessarily that it would be beneficial for Bitcoin, but would be beneficial for users of Bitcoin? I guess I can see the appeal, despite the part where I'd rather see fewer arbitrary lines on the map, not more. And, as others have alluded to, nothing operates in a bubble. Such a nation would have all manner of hurdles to overcome on the world stage. On the whole, I don't think such an idea is feasible. At least not yet, anyway.

jostorres

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Quote from: paxmao on September 11, 2021, 05:03:56 PM

Some people may thing that there are countries that would do better to adopt bitcoin as legal tender, just like in El Salvador, and in many others bitcoin is widely used for fear of the economic and authoritarian policies of the governing juntas.

However, I am inclined to think that bitcoin needs a country. The value of bitcoin, the community and the influence that exerts could potentially make that possible when bitcoin reaches an even higher valuation (perhaps it would be possible even now). How would Bitconia look like? How would we get there?

If you really do think that there is going to be such thing, then your thinking is wrong. There can’t be anything like a country for Bitcoin. First of all it is against what Bitcoin stands for and the plans that Satoshi Nakamoto for the reason behind having Bitcoin is to create a community that is decentralized and not under the control of the government.

So, saying that there is going to be a country for Bitcoin means that the community is going to be centralized which is the opposite of the purpose that it was created for. We are OK with being online and nothing should be changing that, that’s why you do see some people call it the Internet money. No form of hierarchy is needed in a community like this, everyone here is equal.

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Quote from: paxmao on September 11, 2021, 05:03:56 PM

However, I am inclined to think that bitcoin needs a country. The value of bitcoin, the community and the influence that exerts could potentially make that possible when bitcoin reaches an even higher valuation (perhaps it would be possible even now). How would look like? How would we get there?

It may make sense in theory, but in practice, something like this is difficult or impossible because establishing a country is a very complex task. Even if someone finds a perfect location, buys a certain area of land, and declares it Bitconia, only then do problems arise with international recognition, organization of public services (army, police, hospital, school ...).

Apart from the fact that Bitcoin would be the only legal tender in that country, in order to trade with the rest of the world, that country would again have to have money reserves in other internationally recognized currencies - unless it is 100% self-sufficient, which is impossible.

In addition, I agree that any centralization of such proportions is bad for Bitcoin because it creates a central entity that can be held accountable for what Bitcoin represents. Satoshi, in my humble opinion, decided to remove himself as a central figure for this very reason, and that is why Bitcoin is such a success.

dupee419

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I don't think it's necessary for a country called "Bitcoinia", just like what happened to El Salvador, it's considered a currency in the country, not much of a difference will happen if you declare a country and it's currency as Bitcoin, Bitcoin is called "digital" for a reason, it doesn't demand for a country, it's on the network so that people can have access to it globally, I do get your point about it but it's really not needed nor important.

20kevin20

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Besides having BTC as the main currency and paying for everything in BTC, would there be anything different really? The biggest progress would be decentralizing the governance as much as possible, having transparent governance and about zero censorship. But overall, I think it wouldn't be much different from what El Salvador turned into now.

Obito

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Didn't @theymos had the idea before, although it was a seastead so it's a bit different but you can probably call it a microcountry. Also, it's a bit difficult to have a crypto country because almost all lands are already occupied and that plan by @theymos will be the only viable solution.

TheUltraElite

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Quote from: paxmao on September 11, 2021, 05:03:56 PM

However, I am inclined to think that bitcoin needs a country.

The internet is the country of bitcoin in a broader sense. Bitcoin is free to be used by anyone who chooses to and therefore does not need a landmass to seperate its users into a closed space. Instead they should be open and open-minded in order to teach no-coiners about its uses and help them get used to bitcoin.

Was that not what Satoshi envisioned?

Quote

The value of bitcoin, the community and the influence that exerts could potentially make that possible when bitcoin reaches an even higher valuation (perhaps it would be possible even now).

Not the thing that I would want. Moreover taking these things to such mainstream levels will only get branded as "Cultish" and draw more negative influence.

Besides, we also have to take into account the "other bitcoin" out there and its followers who openly oppose Bitcoin "core" or any such self-named terms.

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How would Bitconia look like? How would we get there?

By the click of a button you can get online, IMO.

paxmao

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Quote from: hatshepsut93 on September 11, 2021, 06:07:55 PM

Why would it need a country? Bitcoin was designed to operate without leaders, without centralized organizations to govern or support it. If you will make Bitcoin reliant on a country, you would only weaken it, because the country could be sanctioned or invaded.

Bitcoin only needs one thing - more users. And to get more users it should become less volatile and make some technical improvements.

While your argument is true, as things are now, bitcoin users are highly dependent on regulations. You can declare yourself to be "decentralised", but you would still need to abide by the regulations of the place you live in. Having a place where like-minded people share your values may help that vision become true.

The idea is to make sure that those regulations are aligned with your values and ideas. I can tell that many people on this forum are unhappy about the treatment that bitcoin has in term of taxes and restriction. Those that have a significant amount may be interested in living in a crypto friendly jurisdiction and that is simply not possible in many countries. These people could potentially benefit from creating their own jurisdiction, based on the principles of self-sovereignty, crypto friendliness,...

Quote from: Kittygalore on September 12, 2021, 03:37:49 AM

I don't know if it's going to be a good idea, plus you'll probably have to deal with economics, politics, natural resources, and other stuff that a country must have. Also, it's not really a good thing because bitcoin is supposed to be decentralized and having it's own country will defeat the purpose of decentralization.

To be honest, the first thing you would need to deal with is diplomacy, internal law and order and defence. However, as I said, this would be initially intended for individuals who are willing to create a state that would better serve their views.

Kittygalore

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I don't know if it's going to be a good idea, plus you'll probably have to deal with economics, politics, natural resources, and other stuff that a country must have. Also, it's not really a good thing because bitcoin is supposed to be decentralized and having it's own country will defeat the purpose of decentralization.

hatshepsut93

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Why would it need a country? Bitcoin was designed to operate without leaders, without centralized organizations to govern or support it. If you will make Bitcoin reliant on a country, you would only weaken it, because the country could be sanctioned or invaded.

Bitcoin only needs one thing - more users. And to get more users it should become less volatile and make some technical improvements.

paxmao

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Some people may thing that there are countries that would do better to adopt bitcoin as legal tender, just like in El Salvador, and in many others bitcoin is widely used for fear of the economic and authoritarian policies of the governing juntas.

However, I am inclined to think that bitcoin needs a country. The value of bitcoin, the community and the influence that exerts could potentially make that possible when bitcoin reaches an even higher valuation (perhaps it would be possible even now). How would Bitconia look like? How would we get there?

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