[HYP] HyperStake | Generous Reward Staking | Advanced Staking Controls & Wallet - page 329.

foxy

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Community Update

Hi everyone! This will be my last roundup for a bit as I'm going on holiday. I'll check in randomly but mostly I'll be unplugging and enjoying some silence

Most of the discussion in the thread has been regarding exactly how HYP staking works, the max subsidy and how to best streamline your wallet for efficient staking.
I will encourage all of you to try some of the links Presstab has updated in the OP to shed a little light on how this project works for a bit of enlightening reading.
But of course the developers and the rest of the community are always on hand to answer most any question. This might be the nicest community on this forum.

We have been added to bleutrade voting for those of you who use that exchange. Voting there is completely voluntary.

Presstab has announced he will shortly release an updated wallet with some tweaks, and I wanted to touch base with him before I announced that there will be no
fork for Hyperstake in the immediate future. After the initial growing pains I think we can see that the coin is working as intended, and Presstab's analysis of the
blockchain shows that we are holding at a steady daily growth so there's nothing to worry about inflation wise for the moment. We will continue to consider new
features and additions for now, and add things that the community would like to see further down the line.

I will be back in September, keep the discussions coming and have a great weekend!

https://twitter.com/HyperStake
IRC: ##hyperstake

kingpin69

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Quote from: presstab on August 21, 2014, 10:02:09 AM

Wow diff of 0.43 now Shocked

Things are heating up fast! Market is a little volatile right now too, but the nice part is that the spread seems to be coming in.

I am going to release a new version of the wallet either today or tomorrow. It doesn't have many additions, but it has the age column in coin control that moneromooo added which has become an essential piece of information for me, so everyone else needs to have it too. These last few weeks have been very busy for me, been working 60+ hour weeks and have dozens of side projects.

I am hoping to start ramping up hyperstake coding in the next week or two. Grin

almost at 0.5 now haha. Good to see the trading on the exchanges and also looking forward to the new wallet with the age column incorporated, it will certainly be a handy feature.

Onwards and upwards!

cycoinminer

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Quote from: presstab on August 21, 2014, 10:02:09 AM

Wow diff of 0.43 now Shocked

Things are heating up fast! Market is a little volatile right now too, but the nice part is that the spread seems to be coming in.

I am going to release a new version of the wallet either today or tomorrow. It doesn't have many additions, but it has the age column in coin control that moneromooo added which has become an essential piece of information for me, so everyone else needs to have it too. These last few weeks have been very busy for me, been working 60+ hour weeks and have dozens of side projects.

I am hoping to start ramping up hyperstake coding in the next week or two. Grin

Looking forward to the new wallet! Nice to see someone else works as many hours as me! :-)
If only there was a coin based on how many hours you worked a week!

presstab

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Blockchain Developer

Wow diff of 0.43 now Shocked

Things are heating up fast! Market is a little volatile right now too, but the nice part is that the spread seems to be coming in.

I am going to release a new version of the wallet either today or tomorrow. It doesn't have many additions, but it has the age column in coin control that moneromooo added which has become an essential piece of information for me, so everyone else needs to have it too. These last few weeks have been very busy for me, been working 60+ hour weeks and have dozens of side projects.

I am hoping to start ramping up hyperstake coding in the next week or two. Grin

presstab

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Quote from: cycoinminer on August 20, 2014, 04:40:54 AM

Quote from: MoneroMooo on August 20, 2014, 03:54:55 AM

Quote from: cycoinminer on August 20, 2014, 02:39:42 AM

As all the blocks are competing against each other to get one of the 960 stakes a day, I am unable to figure why 1,600 HYP is the optimal size block.

It is optimal under the assumption that you stake every month. Then, the interest you get will be around 1000 HYP, and so not clipped by the max subsidy.
If you keep larger blocks, but open your wallet more often, then you can keep larger blocks and still not get your interest capped.
If you were to stake after 10 days (so, 1.2 days after the shortest time posssible), you could keep blocks of 4500 or something around that value, since you'll get maybe 20%-25% off that, which is almost 1000. But you get clipped if your block takes a while to stake (and as difficulty gets higher, it tends to go that way).

I've set my wallets (I have 2) so that they're constantly open, in the background, so that I never miss the opportunity for staking.

That now makes sense.

There's going to be people out there who simply don't keep their wallets open.
So when someone has a block of 1,600, and opens the wallet again after around 30 days, they'll get around 1,000 HYP in interest, but no more.
For people like me who leave it open all the time, that' not going to be an issue.

So from this, I can pretty much conclude that if:
- You leave your wallet open 24/7 - have a larger block size, to help with your staking weight.
- You open your wallet once a month, keep your blocks around 1,600 HYP.

Yep. The 1600 HYP recommendation that allows for more wiggle room before hitting the maximum subsidy of 1,000. Of course, it is ultimately up to you what size of block you use. If you want to allow for less wiggle room because you are confident in a quicker stake, then use bigger blocks. Right now a block of 1600 still stakes fairly quickly, so nobody is really waiting around too long. In the future as the difficulty continues to rise 1600 blocks will begin to take much longer to stake and everyone will have to start raising block sizes.

cycoinminer

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Quote from: MoneroMooo on August 20, 2014, 03:54:55 AM

Quote from: cycoinminer on August 20, 2014, 02:39:42 AM

As all the blocks are competing against each other to get one of the 960 stakes a day, I am unable to figure why 1,600 HYP is the optimal size block.

It is optimal under the assumption that you stake every month. Then, the interest you get will be around 1000 HYP, and so not clipped by the max subsidy.
If you keep larger blocks, but open your wallet more often, then you can keep larger blocks and still not get your interest capped.
If you were to stake after 10 days (so, 1.2 days after the shortest time posssible), you could keep blocks of 4500 or something around that value, since you'll get maybe 20%-25% off that, which is almost 1000. But you get clipped if your block takes a while to stake (and as difficulty gets higher, it tends to go that way).

I've set my wallets (I have 2) so that they're constantly open, in the background, so that I never miss the opportunity for staking.

That now makes sense.

There's going to be people out there who simply don't keep their wallets open.
So when someone has a block of 1,600, and opens the wallet again after around 30 days, they'll get around 1,000 HYP in interest, but no more.
For people like me who leave it open all the time, that' not going to be an issue.

So from this, I can pretty much conclude that if:
- You leave your wallet open 24/7 - have a larger block size, to help with your staking weight.
- You open your wallet once a month, keep your blocks around 1,600 HYP.

MoneroMooo

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Quote from: cycoinminer on August 20, 2014, 02:39:42 AM

As all the blocks are competing against each other to get one of the 960 stakes a day, I am unable to figure why 1,600 HYP is the optimal size block.

It is optimal under the assumption that you stake every month. Then, the interest you get will be around 1000 HYP, and so not clipped by the max subsidy.
If you keep larger blocks, but open your wallet more often, then you can keep larger blocks and still not get your interest capped.
If you were to stake after 10 days (so, 1.2 days after the shortest time posssible), you could keep blocks of 4500 or something around that value, since you'll get maybe 20%-25% off that, which is almost 1000. But you get clipped if your block takes a while to stake (and as difficulty gets higher, it tends to go that way).

HunterS

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you are right but there is a maxium stake reward.having block 1600 you get maximum reward.having a block larger say 10000 you will still get same stake reward as a block thats 1600.i think thats how it works.so you are better off splitting it up for maximum reward

cycoinminer

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Sorry to keep asking questions, and thanks a lot for all the replies

I've just looked at the figures:
moneysupply - present : 13162561
moneysupply - 960 blocks ago : 13056462

The difference in the two is 106,099 - so on average, each block is giving out a reward of just 110 HYP.

Earlier, you mention that a block is "more and more likely to produce a stake reward, because its weight gets larger."

As all the blocks are competing against each other to get one of the 960 stakes a day, I am unable to figure why 1,600 HYP is the optimal size block.

For instance, if I had blocks set up in blocks of 4,000 HYP, straight away it would have much more weight than other blocks that matured at the same time. Also, in comparison:
1,600 Block @ 9.8 days = 1,600 weight (reward 7.5/365*9.8*1600=322 HYP)
4,000 Block @ 9.8 days = 4,000 weight (reward 7.5/365*9.8*4000=805 HYP)

By 10.8 days
1,600 Block @ 10.8 days = 3,200 weight (reward 7.5/365*10.8*1600=355 HYP)
4,000 Block @ 10.8 days = 8,000 weight (reward 7.5/365*10.8*4000=887 HYP)

What I'm saying is, if there's going to be a battle for a share of the 960 stakes every day, then surely it's better to have the largest block weight?

Right now, from what you've mentioned, there's no real issue of that happening at the moment, but as more and more blocks are fighting for their reward, isn't a higher weight beneficial, to get you to the "front of the queue"?

Cy

kingpin69

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staking is going well, coin is holding value for the most part and I'm more than confident with such an active dev this coin has many more features to come.

Happy Days!

Biomech

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Anarchy is not chaos.

Quote from: presstab on August 19, 2014, 02:27:15 PM

Quote from: MoneroMooo on August 19, 2014, 01:28:35 PM

My understanding is that 1000 is the maximum amount that a block can generate.
The 960k value is attained if each single block created in a day does generate the maximum 1000 HYP.
There are 960 blocks a day, each at 1000 HYP gives 960k HYP.
This is approximate, based on the average/target number of blocks found per day. You could get more than 960k in a day if you undershoot the block time.
If you reach the max subsidy, the chain will not stop for this, as it'll happen at the last block of the daily period you're considering, as the 959 previous blocks will have also yielded 1000 - just barely enough to hit 960k.

This is exactly right. It is a number that is specific to each block, but we can do the calculations based off of what would happen if every single block that staked hits the maximum subsidy and the 960 blocks/day target is also met.

Thanks, gentlemen. Now I understand the mechanism.

presstab

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Quote from: MoneroMooo on August 19, 2014, 01:28:35 PM

My understanding is that 1000 is the maximum amount that a block can generate.
The 960k value is attained if each single block created in a day does generate the maximum 1000 HYP.
There are 960 blocks a day, each at 1000 HYP gives 960k HYP.
This is approximate, based on the average/target number of blocks found per day. You could get more than 960k in a day if you undershoot the block time.
If you reach the max subsidy, the chain will not stop for this, as it'll happen at the last block of the daily period you're considering, as the 959 previous blocks will have also yielded 1000 - just barely enough to hit 960k.

This is exactly right. It is a number that is specific to each block, but we can do the calculations based off of what would happen if every single block that staked hits the maximum subsidy and the 960 blocks/day target is also met.

MoneroMooo

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My understanding is that 1000 is the maximum amount that a block can generate.
The 960k value is attained if each single block created in a day does generate the maximum 1000 HYP.
There are 960 blocks a day, each at 1000 HYP gives 960k HYP.
This is approximate, based on the average/target number of blocks found per day. You could get more than 960k in a day if you undershoot the block time.
If you reach the max subsidy, the chain will not stop for this, as it'll happen at the last block of the daily period you're considering, as the 959 previous blocks will have also yielded 1000 - just barely enough to hit 960k.

Biomech

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Anarchy is not chaos.

Quote from: presstab on August 19, 2014, 10:00:58 AM

Quote from: cycoinminer on August 19, 2014, 02:14:05 AM

Thanks for that.
So, when the 1,600 HYP stakes, the interest is added to it, and the block is split in 2, and both new blocks are staking again from fresh.
So based on that, every 8.8 days (or there abouts) my entire HYP is refreshed into new blocks and stakes from 0 again, essentially the coins never stop earning interest, at the full rate, right?

Your entire holdings are not connected to each other's staking process. Each coin block is unique. Look at coin control, and think of each coin block as its own entity with its own staking process that has nothing to do with any other block of coins listed there. Usually it will take longer than 8.8 days. 8.8 days is when the coins become eligible to stake. They start competing with all other eligible blocks of coins on the network, and only 1 block is chosen about every 90 seconds.

Quote

So, when you mention that there's inflation control, other than any coins which are sent before they reach staking, how is HYP limiting inflation?

The maximum stake subsidy limits inflation because it only allows for a set amount of coins to be added a day, which is 1,000 * 960 (blocks per day) = 960,000 HYP. So far we add nowhere close to this maximum amount, and it will be much more relevant in the future than it is now.

But it is fair to point out that even having the maximum subsidy has slowed inflation because people are using smaller blocks (for example blocks of 1600). So instead of the block all maturing at once, it will take several days for the interest to be paid. Think of it this way, the more coin supply inflation there is, the higher the PoS difficulty will be, thus the harder for us to stake.

Quote

Also, I ran some quick figures - my 60k HYP, if I account for compound interest, will turn into 1.78m within 6 months, and 53 million HYP within a year. Assuming all things are equal, that would mean that at current 500SAT price, the equivalent in BTC (0.3BTC = 60k HYP) in 1 year from now, my 53m HYP would need to reduce to a value of 0.6SAT to be worth the same 0.3 BTC.

I feel like I'm missing something very obvious.

It is extremely unlikely that this will happen. When running these types of numbers, it doesn't account for the 1,000 HYP maximum reward. And also the fact that it will take longer than 8.8 days. Especially as time goes on and there are more coins competing for stake.

Thanks, press, this was the part I didn't understand. I was under the impression that 1000 was the max any one block could produce, not 960K per day total network. That make much more sense.

But it leads to another technical question: If the subsidy IS reached, what happens next? Does the chain stop, do we produce zero subsidy blocks? Something else?

presstab

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Quote from: cycoinminer on August 19, 2014, 02:14:05 AM

Thanks for that.
So, when the 1,600 HYP stakes, the interest is added to it, and the block is split in 2, and both new blocks are staking again from fresh.
So based on that, every 8.8 days (or there abouts) my entire HYP is refreshed into new blocks and stakes from 0 again, essentially the coins never stop earning interest, at the full rate, right?

Your entire holdings are not connected to each other's staking process. Each coin block is unique. Look at coin control, and think of each coin block as its own entity with its own staking process that has nothing to do with any other block of coins listed there. Usually it will take longer than 8.8 days. 8.8 days is when the coins become eligible to stake. They start competing with all other eligible blocks of coins on the network, and only 1 block is chosen about every 90 seconds.

Quote

So, when you mention that there's inflation control, other than any coins which are sent before they reach staking, how is HYP limiting inflation?

The maximum stake subsidy limits inflation because it only allows for a set amount of coins to be added a day, which is 1,000 * 960 (blocks per day) = 960,000 HYP. So far we add nowhere close to this maximum amount, and it will be much more relevant in the future than it is now.

But it is fair to point out that even having the maximum subsidy has slowed inflation because people are using smaller blocks (for example blocks of 1600). So instead of the block all maturing at once, it will take several days for the interest to be paid. Think of it this way, the more coin supply inflation there is, the higher the PoS difficulty will be, thus the harder for us to stake.

Quote

Also, I ran some quick figures - my 60k HYP, if I account for compound interest, will turn into 1.78m within 6 months, and 53 million HYP within a year. Assuming all things are equal, that would mean that at current 500SAT price, the equivalent in BTC (0.3BTC = 60k HYP) in 1 year from now, my 53m HYP would need to reduce to a value of 0.6SAT to be worth the same 0.3 BTC.

I feel like I'm missing something very obvious.

It is extremely unlikely that this will happen. When running these types of numbers, it doesn't account for the 1,000 HYP maximum reward. And also the fact that it will take longer than 8.8 days. Especially as time goes on and there are more coins competing for stake.

foxy

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hi guys! remember that you can also refer to some of our resources to also answer your questions. presstab has a full topic dedicated to the block issue and there is also a wiki

https://cryptocointalk.com/topic/13257-splitting-and-combining-blocks-using-coin-control/
https://github.com/presstab/HyperStake/wiki/Hyperstake-wiki

cycoinminer

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Quote from: presstab on August 18, 2014, 02:11:22 PM

Well, let me first start off by clarifying the staking process. Let's say I send 1,600 HYP to my wallet. I will need to let at least 8.8 days pass, and my block will begin "mining" itself, or attempting to stake. Think of this block of 1,600 as a PoW miner whose hash rate is 1,600 multiplied by the amount of time past 8.8 days. So if it is 9.8 days old, my coin weight (or sort of the hash rate equivalent) would be 1,600. If my block is 10.8 days old then the coin weight will be 3200.

As the age grows, it is more and more likely to produce a stake reward, because its weight gets larger. Once the block stakes, the network takes that block of 1,600 and calculates the reward. If it took 10.8 days, then it would be rewarded 7.5/365*10.8=355 HYP. The network takes your 1,600 HYP block and completely destroys it. The network then sends you two blocks of 977.5 (totaling 1955). These two blocks are freshly minted, and as such they have 0 age. You will need to wait another 8.8 days for the coins to start mining themselves again.

There is no reason to use a separate wallet address for any of this process. And if you age your blocks longer, then you are missing out on some compound interest. So the "end of the staking cycle" is when you receive the stake reward and are given two new blocks and the old block is destroyed.

Also I need to point out that if you at anytime transfer coins, it starts over the ageing process.

Thanks for that.
So, when the 1,600 HYP stakes, the interest is added to it, and the block is split in 2, and both new blocks are staking again from fresh.
So based on that, every 8.8 days (or there abouts) my entire HYP is refreshed into new blocks and stakes from 0 again, essentially the coins never stop earning interest, at the full rate, right?

So, when you mention that there's inflation control, other than any coins which are sent before they reach staking, how is HYP limiting inflation?
Also, I ran some quick figures - my 60k HYP, if I account for compound interest, will turn into 1.78m within 6 months, and 53 million HYP within a year. Assuming all things are equal, that would mean that at current 500SAT price, the equivalent in BTC (0.3BTC = 60k HYP) in 1 year from now, my 53m HYP would need to reduce to a value of 0.6SAT to be worth the same 0.3 BTC.

I feel like I'm missing something very obvious.

presstab

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Quote from: MoneroMooo on August 18, 2014, 03:48:48 PM

Quote from: presstab on August 18, 2014, 02:58:44 PM

There is a threshold where the "dust" should be collected. This is an area I need to do more research on, and haven't seen happen in my own experience. The code is written so that theoretically dust should be combined when blocks are less than 166 HYP. This dust collection happens when a coin stake is created. I am not sure exactly how the mechanics works... is it from when the less than 166 HYP block stakes, or is it triggered by any block staking?

How I read the code at first glance is that when any block stakes and the "input" or total block amount is going to be less than 166, the wallet will grab other mature blocks and stake them in the same block. It will sum up as many small blocks as it can until 166 HYP is reached. I could be wrong about this, but this is my initial reaction to seeing the code. You can see it in wallet.cpp under createcoinstake.

If it's supposed to do that, it certainly doesn't.

I have a number of coins less than 100 HYP, and a week or so ago I manually merged a dozen of similar small coins into one large 390 sized coin. Some of the inputs where < 10 HYP.

Is this merging code inherited from a PoW codebase ? If so, it might be it's been disabled for PoS because it could reset coin age, and thus isn't wanted automatically ?

I am pretty sure it is exclusive to PoS because it is part of the coinstake. And it looks like another requirement is that it is over 30 days old.

Code:

// Do not add input that is still too young
            if (pcoin.first->nTime + nStakeMaxAge > txNew.nTime)
                continue;

MoneroMooo

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Quote from: presstab on August 18, 2014, 02:58:44 PM

There is a threshold where the "dust" should be collected. This is an area I need to do more research on, and haven't seen happen in my own experience. The code is written so that theoretically dust should be combined when blocks are less than 166 HYP. This dust collection happens when a coin stake is created. I am not sure exactly how the mechanics works... is it from when the less than 166 HYP block stakes, or is it triggered by any block staking?

How I read the code at first glance is that when any block stakes and the "input" or total block amount is going to be less than 166, the wallet will grab other mature blocks and stake them in the same block. It will sum up as many small blocks as it can until 166 HYP is reached. I could be wrong about this, but this is my initial reaction to seeing the code. You can see it in wallet.cpp under createcoinstake.

If it's supposed to do that, it certainly doesn't.

I have a number of coins less than 100 HYP, and a week or so ago I manually merged a dozen of similar small coins into one large 390 sized coin. Some of the inputs where < 10 HYP.

Is this merging code inherited from a PoW codebase ? If so, it might be it's been disabled for PoS because it could reset coin age, and thus isn't wanted automatically ?

presstab

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Quote from: billotronic on August 18, 2014, 02:36:29 PM

I've got a silly question.... what happens when the interest payments get so small that we run out of decimal places? ie if I had a block that was .00001, what would the interest be?

Also, would this cause a situation where the client will be limited in the max size of coins that can be sent in one tx?

There is a threshold where the "dust" should be collected. This is an area I need to do more research on, and haven't seen happen in my own experience. The code is written so that theoretically dust should be combined when blocks are less than 166 HYP. This dust collection happens when a coin stake is created. I am not sure exactly how the mechanics works... is it from when the less than 166 HYP block stakes, or is it triggered by any block staking?

How I read the code at first glance is that when any block stakes and the "input" or total block amount is going to be less than 166, the wallet will grab other mature blocks and stake them in the same block. It will sum up as many small blocks as it can until 166 HYP is reached. I could be wrong about this, but this is my initial reaction to seeing the code. You can see it in wallet.cpp under createcoinstake.

Regarding the interest... Not quite sure. But it would probably never stake at that amount.

Topic: [HYP] HyperStake | Generous Reward Staking | Advanced Staking Controls & Wallet - page 329. (Read 679335 times)