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Topic: I am pretty confident we are the new fiat slaves, gentlemen. - page 2. (Read 3447 times)

legendary
Activity: 3038
Merit: 1660
lose: unfind ... loose: untight
Apologies in advance if you take offense to me reordering - but it helps my narrative. There is always your unedited post to refer to above.

The underlying basic tech of bitcoin may flourish under another new improved infrustructure/name down the road, but I think Bitcoin in itself has seen its best days, and lost grasp of its reigns in a downward spiral once the Mt. Gox debacle first hit.  It's in an unrecoverable phase, ironically akin to the excuses the scamming exchange operators give. 

OK. I can respect that opinion.  I even agree with some of what you say. I think your fatalistic conclusion is absolutely wrong, however.

Quote
Nobody has a crystal ball.  But like ass holes, everyone has an opinion.  And it is of *MY* opinion (and probably less popular because we're on a bitcoin promoted forum) that bitcoin exhibits all classic characteristics of a bubble market...AND COMBINED with the long string of negative press/fraud...will continue in its downward price trend until a) future investors shy away, b) current holders jump ship, and c) interest naturally dies down.

So all market bubbles are fatal?

Here's the thing. You sound like you may have entered this space not long before (or perhaps even after) the spectacular run-up of a year ago. But for Bitcoin, it was just one more cycle of a repeated pattern. Sure, the magnitude was larger, but proportionally on-track with previous cycles. As, I expect, will be the next cycle.

You can draw whatever conclusion you will from the absolute value of the last crash. But it is by no means our most significant crash proportionally. And looking at the history (sorry for semi-quoting myself):

Peak $1200 USD, before receding over a year's time to ~$275?
Peak April 2013 at $240, before receding to $65.
Peak August 2012, when it shot up to $15 before losing over half its value.
Peak Feb 2012 - $7.50 before dropping to $4.30.
Peak June 2011 - $35 before crashing to $2.25
Peak Q3 2010 - $0.50 to $0.20
Peak Q2 2010 - $0.18 to $0.05


... sure, each peak is followed by a trough. But here is the important observation to make: each successive trough is higher than the last.

Quote
The euphoria phase of bitcoin is over, imo.  

Again, you're speaking as if the last peak was the only euphoric phase. I see a roughly periodic wave function with exponentially-growing magnitude. How much of humanity was involved this time? Heck, most of humanity has not even heard of Bitcoin. I believe that next cycle, a larger share of the population will be participating. Larger magnitude yet.

Quote
And unlike for certain recoverable bubble markets like the stock market and housing...bitcoin is not a necessity, but rather an alternative and luxury. 

I'm fairly well convinced that the entire world fiat money structure is likely to collapse some time within my lifetime (I recognize some other rational people may not agree with my assessment). When that event transpires, an 'alternative' will be a necessity. If Bitcoin is mature enough when the cataclysm is upon us, Bitcoin would be a wonderful alternative. Indeed, it is a nearly ideally-engineered money - as opposed to that fiat shit. And if Bitcoin can be grown such that it merely overtakes fiat, we can avoid the effects of the collapse altogether. But, yet another discussion for another thread.

To the rest of your post, I'll just respond that this wave was not the first, and I believe it is unlikely that it was the last.
sr. member
Activity: 406
Merit: 250
That was a generalized statement to the pattern of the majority of all cryptos until now.

Artificial/unhealthy exponential growth spurt over a very short period of time followed by a swift crash.  It's the exact pattern of a bubble chart.

Are you not capable of looking at the bitcoin charts and the bubble chart I noted earlier?  And are you able to refute how its 2 month 1000% rise and subsequent halving in value 3 weeks later was anything but 'organic?'

I'd honestly love to hear this.  I'll go and grab my popcorn now.

Your assertion was the Bitcoin -- like all other cryptos -- would die after the initial pump and dump. I'm not going to refute that p'n'd occurs. I'm wanting you pick exactly one point you'll use as the "initial pump and dump" (note double quotes), and use that to show that Bitcoin is correspondingly doomed. Your quote revisited:

Quote
Bitcoin so far has been no different.  Check and compare the long term charts of all these digital currencies.  And none of them have ever come back to realize their initial pump and dump prices.  None.

You're the one with the assertion. I'm the one with the popcorn. Get to it.


Nobody has a crystal ball.  But like ass holes, everyone has an opinion.  And it is of *MY* opinion (and probably less popular because we're on a bitcoin promoted forum) that bitcoin exhibits all classic characteristics of a bubble market...AND COMBINED with the long string of negative press/fraud...will continue in its downward price trend until a) future investors shy away, b) current holders jump ship, and c) interest naturally dies down.

The euphoria phase of bitcoin is over, imo.  Same thing with Dogecoin.  But damn, those few months were crazy.  But that's what happens with bubbles.  Everyone starts talking about them like the 'next best thing in the history of mankind' and a frenzy ensues.

And unlike for certain recoverable bubble markets like the stock market and housing...bitcoin is not a necessity, but rather an alternative and luxury. 

The underlying basic tech of bitcoin may flourish under another new improved infrustructure/name down the road, but I think Bitcoin in itself has seen its best days, and lost grasp of its reigns in a downward spiral once the Mt. Gox debacle first hit.  It's in an unrecoverable phase, ironically akin to the excuses the scamming exchange operators give.  

With technology, there is often a very small window of opportunity to turn boom or bust.  And unfortunately with Bitcoin, the bad news just kept piling up and public perception went to the wayside with it.  About the only ones still raving over it are holders hoping to save face or in denial.

Again...since reading comprehension seems to be a difficult chore for some: the underlying premise/technology of bitcoin may have a future, but Bitcoin itself is (in my opinion) headed towards a fate of obscurity and an afterthought.  

Much like plasma tv's succumbed to LED's...so will Bitcoin.  

In my opinion, there will probably be some sort of government issued digital currency that will take its reigns and gain true widespread adoption.  I know people shudder at the mere mention of crypto currencies and government...but in the end, they are the real ones that have both the financial and advertising means to take the technology to the next level of adoption.


Disagree if you will. But those are my thoughts.
legendary
Activity: 3038
Merit: 1660
lose: unfind ... loose: untight
That was a generalized statement to the pattern of the majority of all cryptos until now.

Artificial/unhealthy exponential growth spurt over a very short period of time followed by a swift crash.  It's the exact pattern of a bubble chart.

Are you not capable of looking at the bitcoin charts and the bubble chart I noted earlier?  And are you able to refute how its 2 month 1000% rise and subsequent halving in value 3 weeks later was anything but 'organic?'

I'd honestly love to hear this.  I'll go and grab my popcorn now.

Your assertion was the Bitcoin -- like all other cryptos -- would die after the initial pump and dump. I'm not going to refute that p'n'd occurs. I'm wanting you pick exactly one point you'll use as the "initial pump and dump" (note double quotes), and use that to show that Bitcoin is correspondingly doomed. Your quote revisited:

Quote
Bitcoin so far has been no different.  Check and compare the long term charts of all these digital currencies.  And none of them have ever come back to realize their initial pump and dump prices.  None.

You're the one with the assertion. I'm the one with the popcorn. Get to it.
hero member
Activity: 912
Merit: 1021
If you don’t believe, why are you here?
OMG no, please don't make us compare the trend over 4 years for both of them!!!

Did you seriously just compare the Cult of Jobs to the worlds first digital currency?

Funny that you said this shit. I was just watching the lost interview of Steve Jobs on Netflix, circa 1995, and he pretty much predicted the importance of the internet to global communications and finance. A young man by the name of Andreas is predicting the the same of blockchain technology. It's maturity? The internet circa 1994-95.

Steve Jobs took over Apple when it was going bankrupt in the late 1990's. So may be the 4 year growth analogy is more of predictor of a BTC derivative in 2025-2030 timeframe.

Just sayin.
legendary
Activity: 1386
Merit: 1000
l ll sell all my family to buy BTC at $1  Grin Grin Grin

lmao

To the OP: yes 1 BTC will always be 1 BTC and that is the main thing for sure Wink
sr. member
Activity: 406
Merit: 250
No.  Organic growth over a 4 year period /= a 1000% skyrocket in price in under 2 months, then a subsequent drop of over 50% in less than 3 weeks.  I suggest you present both market charts to a professor of economics at a local university for verification on how asinine your comparison is.

It's obvious this is going nowhere, as you don't understand the basic fundamentals of market conditions...and are just reaching for straws.

[edit - disparaging remark removed as gratuitous]

Care to answer my questions above? Still looking for what you feel is the "initial pump and dump", followed by a dive to "milli fractions" in value.

That was a generalized statement to the pattern of the majority of all cryptos until now.

Artificial/unhealthy exponential growth spurt over a very short period of time followed by a swift crash.  It's the exact pattern of a bubble chart.

Are you not capable of looking at the bitcoin charts and the bubble chart I noted earlier?  And are you able to refute how its 2 month 1000% rise and subsequent halving in value 3 weeks later was anything but 'organic?'

I'd honestly love to hear this.  I'll go and grab my popcorn now.
sr. member
Activity: 449
Merit: 250
don t touch my Bits
l ll sell all my family to buy BTC at $1  Grin Grin Grin
legendary
Activity: 3038
Merit: 1660
lose: unfind ... loose: untight
No.  Organic growth over a 4 year period /= a 1000% skyrocket in price in under 2 months, then a subsequent drop of over 50% in less than 3 weeks.  I suggest you present both market charts to a professor of economics at a local university for verification on how asinine your comparison is.

It's obvious this is going nowhere, as you don't understand the basic fundamentals of market conditions...and are just reaching for straws.

[edit - disparaging remark removed as gratuitous]

Care to answer my questions above? Still looking for what you feel is the "initial pump and dump", followed by a dive to "milli fractions" in value.
sr. member
Activity: 406
Merit: 250
No I'm saying that you cannot predict the failure of the dominant product in the market by the failures that came AFTER it and never really challenged it's dominance.

It sounds like you're saying something similar to "WebTV never took off, this absolutely proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that the internet is DOOOOOOMED!!!! DOOOOOOOOOOMMMMED!!!"

I'm simply stating every digital currency created up til this point has suffered the same exact pattern of an artificial pump and dump bubble.  Not one of them hasn't.  Whether from the actual coin creators or investors, all have been whored to death and then promptly dropped like a 5 dollar hooker.

I'm not claiming to know the future.  But I also base my opinions on facts, and trends.  And as of right now, the price trends/charts/and all the recent fraud news does NOT bode well for any crypto, bitcoin included.

As an owner of over 4btc (far from a fortune, but it's still money) and having lost over 8 btc on various exchange thefts, I wish this was not the case.  But it's really disgusting how dark the bitcoin community has gotten.  It's a sesspool of fraud and manipulation...which are the exact things that will run it to the ground and prevent it from gaining true mainstream adoption.
Same as apple stocks:
https://finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=AAPL+Interactive#%7B%22range%22%3A%2210y%22%2C%22scale%22%3A%22linear%22%7D
Is apple just a pump and dumb?


Did you really just compare the organic 4 year price increase of the largest corporation in terms of consumer electronics sales worldwide to a 24 month bubble spike chart of a speculative new tech named bitcoin?  

Like, I'm honestly not sure if you're being serious or not.

Lol.  This is hopeless.

You are the primary reason why most bitcoin and altcoin 'investors' get hosed.  Because they have no idea how markets really work.  They just see dollar signs and jump on the first hypes of 'TO DA MOOOON!!!!!!'
You were talking about patterns. There is a pretty similar pattern in Apple stocks. Is there not?

No.  Organic growth over a 4 year period /= a 1000% skyrocket in price in under 2 months, then a subsequent drop of over 50% in less than 3 weeks.  I suggest you present both market charts to a professor of economics at a local university for verification on how asinine your comparison is.

It's obvious this is going nowhere, as you don't understand the basic fundamentals of market conditions...and are just reaching for straws.
legendary
Activity: 1988
Merit: 1012
Beyond Imagination
No, you won't even have the right to become a fiat slave, you just simply don't get any fiat money at all  Grin



legendary
Activity: 2674
Merit: 2965
Terminated.
One shouldn't even argue with such people. Bitcoin might one day actually free some of us from being fiat slaves.

Having only the price of Bitcoin in $ or euros in mind represents a wrong view of the world.
hero member
Activity: 714
Merit: 500
No I'm saying that you cannot predict the failure of the dominant product in the market by the failures that came AFTER it and never really challenged it's dominance.

It sounds like you're saying something similar to "WebTV never took off, this absolutely proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that the internet is DOOOOOOMED!!!! DOOOOOOOOOOMMMMED!!!"

I'm simply stating every digital currency created up til this point has suffered the same exact pattern of an artificial pump and dump bubble.  Not one of them hasn't.  Whether from the actual coin creators or investors, all have been whored to death and then promptly dropped like a 5 dollar hooker.

I'm not claiming to know the future.  But I also base my opinions on facts, and trends.  And as of right now, the price trends/charts/and all the recent fraud news does NOT bode well for any crypto, bitcoin included.

As an owner of over 4btc (far from a fortune, but it's still money) and having lost over 8 btc on various exchange thefts, I wish this was not the case.  But it's really disgusting how dark the bitcoin community has gotten.  It's a sesspool of fraud and manipulation...which are the exact things that will run it to the ground and prevent it from gaining true mainstream adoption.
Same as apple stocks:
https://finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=AAPL+Interactive#%7B%22range%22%3A%2210y%22%2C%22scale%22%3A%22linear%22%7D
Is apple just a pump and dumb?


Did you really just compare the organic 4 year price increase of the largest corporation in terms of consumer electronics sales worldwide to a 24 month bubble spike chart of a speculative new tech named bitcoin?  

Like, I'm honestly not sure if you're being serious or not.

Lol.  This is hopeless.

You are the primary reason why most bitcoin and altcoin 'investors' get hosed.  Because they have no idea how markets really work.  They just see dollar signs and jump on the first hypes of 'TO DA MOOOON!!!!!!'
You were talking about patterns. There is a pretty similar pattern in Apple stocks. Is there not?
legendary
Activity: 3038
Merit: 1660
lose: unfind ... loose: untight
Bitcoin so far has been no different.  Check and compare the long term charts of all these digital currencies.  And none of them have ever come back to realize their initial pump and dump prices.  None.  Matter of fact, most have gone on to become worth basically a milli fraction of what they used to be...or completely vanished altogether.

mmmh hmmm...mmmh hmmm....

Tell me, what was Bitcoin's "initial pump and dump"?

A year ago, when it briefly hit over $1200 USD, before receding over a year's time to ~$275?

No, wait - before that was April 2013 at $240, before receding to $65.

No, you said initial pump & dump - before that was August 2012, when it shot up to $15 before losing over half its value.

No, still not initial - Feb 2012 - $7.50 before dropping to $4.30.

Back further - June 2011 - $35 before crashing to $2.25

Q3 2010 - $0.50 to $0.20

Q2 2010 - $0.18 to $0.05

...and the hits just continue back before there was a trackable market.

And "milli fractions"? You're aware that 'milli' is defined by various standards organizations as a prefix denoting 1/1000, right? Accordingly, by your logic, after this last 'pump and dump', Bitcoin should be trading at the order of magnitude of $1.20 or so. I think you're off by several orders of magnitude.

member
Activity: 105
Merit: 10
We'll see if bitcoin can drop pretty low in 2015

FLUCTUATION
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 500
Hodl!
OMG no, please don't make us compare the trend over 4 years for both of them!!!

Did you seriously just compare the Cult of Jobs to the worlds first digital currency?
sr. member
Activity: 406
Merit: 250
No I'm saying that you cannot predict the failure of the dominant product in the market by the failures that came AFTER it and never really challenged it's dominance.

It sounds like you're saying something similar to "WebTV never took off, this absolutely proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that the internet is DOOOOOOMED!!!! DOOOOOOOOOOMMMMED!!!"

I'm simply stating every digital currency created up til this point has suffered the same exact pattern of an artificial pump and dump bubble.  Not one of them hasn't.  Whether from the actual coin creators or investors, all have been whored to death and then promptly dropped like a 5 dollar hooker.

I'm not claiming to know the future.  But I also base my opinions on facts, and trends.  And as of right now, the price trends/charts/and all the recent fraud news does NOT bode well for any crypto, bitcoin included.

As an owner of over 4btc (far from a fortune, but it's still money) and having lost over 8 btc on various exchange thefts, I wish this was not the case.  But it's really disgusting how dark the bitcoin community has gotten.  It's a sesspool of fraud and manipulation...which are the exact things that will run it to the ground and prevent it from gaining true mainstream adoption.
Same as apple stocks:
https://finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=AAPL+Interactive#%7B%22range%22%3A%2210y%22%2C%22scale%22%3A%22linear%22%7D
Is apple just a pump and dumb?


Did you really just compare the organic 4 year price increase of the largest corporation in terms of consumer electronics sales worldwide to a 24 month bubble spike chart of a speculative new tech named bitcoin?  

Like, I'm honestly not sure if you're being serious or not.

Lol.  This is hopeless.

You are the primary reason why most bitcoin and altcoin 'investors' get hosed.  Because they have no idea how markets really work.  They just see dollar signs and jump on the first hypes of 'TO DA MOOOON!!!!!!'
hero member
Activity: 605
Merit: 500
Bitcoin was the first mover shitcoin. It is the unchallenged king of shitcoins! Bow down to its glory pesants!  
It was the first and nothing will come after it!!! Just eat it! If you don't want it we'll ram it down your throat!
Pay your taxes to the miners and shut up!
The mighty shitcoin will not be challenged! Why pay 5% to your government when you can pay 10% to the anonymous miners? ShBitcoin revolution forever!

Now, you get it. Welcome to the club!
member
Activity: 84
Merit: 11
Bitcoin was the first mover shitcoin. It is the unchallenged king of shitcoins! Bow down to its glory pesants!  
It was the first and nothing will come after it!!! Just eat it! If you don't want it we'll ram it down your throat!
Pay your taxes to the miners and shut up!
The mighty shitcoin will not be challenged! Why pay 5% to your government when you can pay 10% to the anonymous miners? ShBitcoin revolution forever!
hero member
Activity: 714
Merit: 500
No I'm saying that you cannot predict the failure of the dominant product in the market by the failures that came AFTER it and never really challenged it's dominance.

It sounds like you're saying something similar to "WebTV never took off, this absolutely proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that the internet is DOOOOOOMED!!!! DOOOOOOOOOOMMMMED!!!"

I'm simply stating every digital currency created up til this point has suffered the same exact pattern of an artificial pump and dump bubble.  Not one of them hasn't.  Whether from the actual coin creators or investors, all have been whored to death and then promptly dropped like a 5 dollar hooker.

I'm not claiming to know the future.  But I also base my opinions on facts, and trends.  And as of right now, the price trends/charts/and all the recent fraud news does NOT bode well for any crypto, bitcoin included.

As an owner of over 4btc (far from a fortune, but it's still money) and having lost over 8 btc on various exchange thefts, I wish this was not the case.  But it's really disgusting how dark the bitcoin community has gotten.  It's a sesspool of fraud and manipulation...which are the exact things that will run it to the ground and prevent it from gaining true mainstream adoption.
Same as apple stocks:
https://finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=AAPL+Interactive#%7B%22range%22%3A%2210y%22%2C%22scale%22%3A%22linear%22%7D
Is apple just a pump and dumb?
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