I am pretty confident we are the new wealthy elite, gentlemen. - page 111.

BayAreaCoins

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Owner at AltQuick.com

Quote from: Flashman on January 05, 2015, 02:12:12 PM

Quote from: BayAreaCoins on January 05, 2015, 10:41:02 AM

Then please go break CLAM and www.Just-dice.com to show us.

These challenges are like saying "I've built an impregnable brick vault on my front lawn and sealed a whole FIVE DOLLARS inside it" ...

i.e. nobody is breaking into it because the jackhammer rental is more than $5....

No one saying anything about dollars fucktard.

I'm just saying if you want to test to see if PoS is decent then you got to try to fuck it up.

Dooglus has contributed directly to BTC as well, so seems like a good one to try to fuck up before choosing if BTC should go down that path or not.

Flashman

hero member

Activity: 518

Merit: 500

Hodl!

Quote from: BayAreaCoins on January 05, 2015, 10:41:02 AM

Then please go break CLAM and www.Just-dice.com to show us.

These challenges are like saying "I've built an impregnable brick vault on my front lawn and sealed a whole FIVE DOLLARS inside it" ...

i.e. nobody is breaking into it because the jackhammer rental is more than $5....

BayAreaCoins

legendary

Activity: 4018

Merit: 1250

Owner at AltQuick.com

Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on January 04, 2015, 02:00:37 PM

Quote from: podyx on January 04, 2015, 01:42:28 PM

PoS coins, as good as they are, don't work long term though

They are too unsafe

Why?

Then please go break CLAM and www.Just-dice.com to show us.

I'm interested too.

QuestionAuthority

legendary

Activity: 2156

Merit: 1393

You lead and I'll watch you walk away.

Quote from: marcus_of_augustus on January 04, 2015, 09:51:12 PM

Quote

Yes, that's a very popular thing to say here, isn't it? These are just my opinions and the historical fact that people vote with their feet. I don't need to design anything. That's not my job. I'm a user of crypto currency. I'm the customer. The designers need to convince me to trust them with my money.

... and at that point you are incentivised to convince everybody else to use your chosen currency, irregardless of the fallacy of your inexperienced or ill-informed opinion ...

and so on and so on the bullshit goes

Crushing public debate is your chosen method for attracting new business and making improvements? I guess that method works because it's worked for many companies in the past. My chosen currency so far is Bitcoin and you've never seen me say anything different. Since you obviously have the answers why don't you enlighten me? Please, tell me how Bitcoin is perfect and will never require another update.

marcus_of_augustus

legendary

Activity: 3920

Merit: 2349

Eadem mutata resurgo

Quote

Yes, that's a very popular thing to say here, isn't it? These are just my opinions and the historical fact that people vote with their feet. I don't need to design anything. That's not my job. I'm a user of crypto currency. I'm the customer. The designers need to convince me to trust them with my money.

... and at that point you are incentivised to convince everybody else to use your chosen currency, irregardless of the fallacy of your inexperienced or ill-informed opinion ...

and so on and so on the bullshit goes

QuestionAuthority

legendary

Activity: 2156

Merit: 1393

You lead and I'll watch you walk away.

Quote from: marcus_of_augustus on January 04, 2015, 08:52:00 PM

Quote from: QuestionAuthority on January 04, 2015, 02:03:12 PM

Quote from: podyx on January 04, 2015, 01:42:28 PM

Quote from: QuestionAuthority on January 04, 2015, 11:47:20 AM

Quote from: BayAreaCoins on January 04, 2015, 09:07:02 AM

Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on January 04, 2015, 08:59:18 AM

Quote from: QuestionAuthority on January 04, 2015, 08:36:33 AM

It needs more people using it everyday as a payment system instead of miners dumping the coin as soon as they're mined.

Exactly. This is why PoS coins without inflation are not falling that much now and even rising BTC-wise.

I really really enjoy PoS tbh.

Only started messing around with them since Just-dice started taking CLAM.

It seems to me it prevents a lot of economy leakage through electric bills and ancient miners (seriously when I look at a miner now days it reminds me of a 1970's printer.)

I imagine you'd have a large number of Bitcoin miners who would be seriously butthurt about PoS.

Seems silly to expect BTC to go global and WANT to give that much money to the fat cat electric companies rather than reward your own kind.

I "mine" about a Bitcoin a day using PoS right now completely eco friendly and no huge electric bill.

Yeah, the PoW system is looking more nutty to me every day. It's not just the wastefulness, scalability, or the equipment cost in upgrades and failures but the fact that eventually it has to become centralized. I have been here through every 51% scare starting with Deepbit and understand this system just can't be controlled with "goodwill" anymore. The arguments for the wasteful energy use are always beaten down with the claim that the modern banking system uses at least that much energy or more to move money around. Aren't we trying to be better than the current system though? The "we're the same as they are" argument just seems stupid to me. I don't know if PoS is the answer but something needs to change.

PoS coins, as good as they are, don't work long term though

They are too unsafe

I don't think the winning system has been designed yet. The main problem with any design is the thing that brilliant scientists can't comprehend because they're too logical, that's simple human nature. Any design will have to completely remove any ability for someone or some group to game it. That may be an impossible task. Satoshi believed he solved that problem by thinking the only motivation for any activity involving money was greed and logical self interest but that's not true. The reality of life is that nothing is ever just black or white. Blackhat hackers spend hundreds of man hours to break into some of the most secure systems in the world for no other reason than to see if they can. Companies will spend a fortune to crush a competitor even if the realized return will never pay for the attack. Governments spend hundreds of billions of dollars on things that don't work. PoW isn't the final solution.

you seem to know all the answers, where's your blueprint for the perfect system?

Working prototype?

or just all yap?

Yes, that's a very popular thing to say here, isn't it? These are just my opinions and the historical fact that people vote with their feet. I don't need to design anything. That's not my job. I'm a user of crypto currency. I'm the customer. The designers need to convince me to trust them with my money.

marcus_of_augustus

legendary

Activity: 3920

Merit: 2349

Eadem mutata resurgo

Quote from: QuestionAuthority on January 04, 2015, 02:03:12 PM

Quote from: podyx on January 04, 2015, 01:42:28 PM

Quote from: QuestionAuthority on January 04, 2015, 11:47:20 AM

Quote from: BayAreaCoins on January 04, 2015, 09:07:02 AM

Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on January 04, 2015, 08:59:18 AM

Quote from: QuestionAuthority on January 04, 2015, 08:36:33 AM

It needs more people using it everyday as a payment system instead of miners dumping the coin as soon as they're mined.

Exactly. This is why PoS coins without inflation are not falling that much now and even rising BTC-wise.

I really really enjoy PoS tbh.

Only started messing around with them since Just-dice started taking CLAM.

It seems to me it prevents a lot of economy leakage through electric bills and ancient miners (seriously when I look at a miner now days it reminds me of a 1970's printer.)

I imagine you'd have a large number of Bitcoin miners who would be seriously butthurt about PoS.

Seems silly to expect BTC to go global and WANT to give that much money to the fat cat electric companies rather than reward your own kind.

I "mine" about a Bitcoin a day using PoS right now completely eco friendly and no huge electric bill.

Yeah, the PoW system is looking more nutty to me every day. It's not just the wastefulness, scalability, or the equipment cost in upgrades and failures but the fact that eventually it has to become centralized. I have been here through every 51% scare starting with Deepbit and understand this system just can't be controlled with "goodwill" anymore. The arguments for the wasteful energy use are always beaten down with the claim that the modern banking system uses at least that much energy or more to move money around. Aren't we trying to be better than the current system though? The "we're the same as they are" argument just seems stupid to me. I don't know if PoS is the answer but something needs to change.

PoS coins, as good as they are, don't work long term though

They are too unsafe

I don't think the winning system has been designed yet. The main problem with any design is the thing that brilliant scientists can't comprehend because they're too logical, that's simple human nature. Any design will have to completely remove any ability for someone or some group to game it. That may be an impossible task. Satoshi believed he solved that problem by thinking the only motivation for any activity involving money was greed and logical self interest but that's not true. The reality of life is that nothing is ever just black or white. Blackhat hackers spend hundreds of man hours to break into some of the most secure systems in the world for no other reason than to see if they can. Companies will spend a fortune to crush a competitor even if the realized return will never pay for the attack. Governments spend hundreds of billions of dollars on things that don't work. PoW isn't the final solution.

you seem to know all the answers, where's your blueprint for the perfect system?

Working prototype?

or just all yap?

QuestionAuthority

legendary

Activity: 2156

Merit: 1393

You lead and I'll watch you walk away.

Quote from: podyx on January 04, 2015, 01:42:28 PM

Quote from: QuestionAuthority on January 04, 2015, 11:47:20 AM

Quote from: BayAreaCoins on January 04, 2015, 09:07:02 AM

Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on January 04, 2015, 08:59:18 AM

Quote from: QuestionAuthority on January 04, 2015, 08:36:33 AM

It needs more people using it everyday as a payment system instead of miners dumping the coin as soon as they're mined.

Exactly. This is why PoS coins without inflation are not falling that much now and even rising BTC-wise.

I really really enjoy PoS tbh.

Only started messing around with them since Just-dice started taking CLAM.

It seems to me it prevents a lot of economy leakage through electric bills and ancient miners (seriously when I look at a miner now days it reminds me of a 1970's printer.)

I imagine you'd have a large number of Bitcoin miners who would be seriously butthurt about PoS.

Seems silly to expect BTC to go global and WANT to give that much money to the fat cat electric companies rather than reward your own kind.

I "mine" about a Bitcoin a day using PoS right now completely eco friendly and no huge electric bill.

Yeah, the PoW system is looking more nutty to me every day. It's not just the wastefulness, scalability, or the equipment cost in upgrades and failures but the fact that eventually it has to become centralized. I have been here through every 51% scare starting with Deepbit and understand this system just can't be controlled with "goodwill" anymore. The arguments for the wasteful energy use are always beaten down with the claim that the modern banking system uses at least that much energy or more to move money around. Aren't we trying to be better than the current system though? The "we're the same as they are" argument just seems stupid to me. I don't know if PoS is the answer but something needs to change.

PoS coins, as good as they are, don't work long term though

They are too unsafe

I don't think the winning system has been designed yet. The main problem with any design is the thing that brilliant scientists can't comprehend because they're too logical, that's simple human nature. Any design will have to completely remove any ability for someone or some group to game it. That may be an impossible task. Satoshi believed he solved that problem by thinking the only motivation for any activity involving money was greed and logical self interest but that's not true. The reality of life is that nothing is ever just black or white. Blackhat hackers spend hundreds of man hours to break into some of the most secure systems in the world for no other reason than to see if they can. Companies will spend a fortune to crush a competitor even if the realized return will never pay for the attack. Governments spend hundreds of billions of dollars on things that don't work. PoW isn't the final solution.

Come-from-Beyond

legendary

Activity: 2142

Merit: 1010

Newbie

Quote from: podyx on January 04, 2015, 01:42:28 PM

PoS coins, as good as they are, don't work long term though

They are too unsafe

Why?

podyx

legendary

Activity: 2338

Merit: 1035

Quote from: QuestionAuthority on January 04, 2015, 11:47:20 AM

Quote from: BayAreaCoins on January 04, 2015, 09:07:02 AM

Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on January 04, 2015, 08:59:18 AM

Quote from: QuestionAuthority on January 04, 2015, 08:36:33 AM

It needs more people using it everyday as a payment system instead of miners dumping the coin as soon as they're mined.

Exactly. This is why PoS coins without inflation are not falling that much now and even rising BTC-wise.

I really really enjoy PoS tbh.

Only started messing around with them since Just-dice started taking CLAM.

It seems to me it prevents a lot of economy leakage through electric bills and ancient miners (seriously when I look at a miner now days it reminds me of a 1970's printer.)

I imagine you'd have a large number of Bitcoin miners who would be seriously butthurt about PoS.

Seems silly to expect BTC to go global and WANT to give that much money to the fat cat electric companies rather than reward your own kind.

I "mine" about a Bitcoin a day using PoS right now completely eco friendly and no huge electric bill.

Yeah, the PoW system is looking more nutty to me every day. It's not just the wastefulness, scalability, or the equipment cost in upgrades and failures but the fact that eventually it has to become centralized. I have been here through every 51% scare starting with Deepbit and understand this system just can't be controlled with "goodwill" anymore. The arguments for the wasteful energy use are always beaten down with the claim that the modern banking system uses at least that much energy or more to move money around. Aren't we trying to be better than the current system though? The "we're the same as they are" argument just seems stupid to me. I don't know if PoS is the answer but something needs to change.

PoS coins, as good as they are, don't work long term though

They are too unsafe

QuestionAuthority

legendary

Activity: 2156

Merit: 1393

You lead and I'll watch you walk away.

Quote from: BayAreaCoins on January 04, 2015, 12:50:25 PM

Quote from: QuestionAuthority on January 04, 2015, 11:47:20 AM

Yeah, the PoW system is looking more nutty to me every day. It's not just the wastefulness, scalability, or the equipment cost in upgrades and failures but the fact that eventually it has to become centralized. I have been here through every 51% scare starting with Deepbit and understand this system just can't be controlled with "goodwill" anymore. The arguments for the wasteful energy use are always beaten down with the claim that the modern banking system uses at least that much energy or more to move money around. Aren't we trying to be better than the current system though? The "we're the same as they are" argument just seems stupid to me. I don't know if PoS is the answer but something needs to change.

Agree.

This is where altcoins will play a big roll for "research".

I'm not sure if PoS is the correct system either because I see the flaws in it as well.

Bitcoin should stay the way it is for now while others duke it out... that's the main reason crypto needs 5 years to figure its self out.

That's right. Let the better system prevail. The great solution to system forking is the power of the users to choose a direction and vote on it with their money. That holds true for competing coins too. People will choose the winner and all the preaching on all the forums in the world won't stop it.

huntercerebellumr

newbie

Activity: 6

Merit: 0

Quote from: MarketNeutral on January 04, 2015, 01:20:10 PM

Quote from: Possum577 on January 04, 2015, 12:59:44 PM

Are we still the "new wealthy elite" at ~$260 per coin? (I do realize this post was started at lower prices)

If your average cost per coin is sub $5 or $10 or $100 or even sub the current spot price, then.....well....maybe.

Many noobs forget that for many of us, Bitcoin topping $25 or $50 seemed an utter miracle at the time.

couple of years ago still like many today people thought Bitcoin would be like facebook, Microsoft or Google but now they realise that it more like Linux.

I estimate 2 years from now BTC price will be as low as the average altcoin price what ever that may be, These are the final days for people to skim off the last profits from BTC

being first does not always mean being the best, in my opinion the biggest surprise in crypto coins will come from the least expected place.

Come-from-Beyond

legendary

Activity: 2142

Merit: 1010

Newbie

Quote from: picolo on January 04, 2015, 12:33:02 PM

The Bitcoin network is very safe because it's paying miners to mine.

No, it's paying to electricity companies via miners. Money flows out of your pocket (inflation). Get rid of necessity to pay for burned electricity and you will get Proof-of-Stake.

QuestionAuthority

legendary

Activity: 2156

Merit: 1393

You lead and I'll watch you walk away.

Quote from: SirChiko on January 04, 2015, 12:14:50 PM

Quote from: QuestionAuthority on January 04, 2015, 11:47:20 AM

Quote from: BayAreaCoins on January 04, 2015, 09:07:02 AM

Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on January 04, 2015, 08:59:18 AM

Quote from: QuestionAuthority on January 04, 2015, 08:36:33 AM

It needs more people using it everyday as a payment system instead of miners dumping the coin as soon as they're mined.

Exactly. This is why PoS coins without inflation are not falling that much now and even rising BTC-wise.

I really really enjoy PoS tbh.

Only started messing around with them since Just-dice started taking CLAM.

It seems to me it prevents a lot of economy leakage through electric bills and ancient miners (seriously when I look at a miner now days it reminds me of a 1970's printer.)

I imagine you'd have a large number of Bitcoin miners who would be seriously butthurt about PoS.

Seems silly to expect BTC to go global and WANT to give that much money to the fat cat electric companies rather than reward your own kind.

I "mine" about a Bitcoin a day using PoS right now completely eco friendly and no huge electric bill.

Yeah, the PoW system is looking more nutty to me every day. It's not just the wastefulness, scalability, or the equipment cost in upgrades and failures but the fact that eventually it has to become centralized. I have been here through every 51% scare starting with Deepbit and understand this system just can't be controlled with "goodwill" anymore. The arguments for the wasteful energy use are always beaten down with the claim that the modern banking system uses at least that much energy or more to move money around. Aren't we trying to be better than the current system though? The "we're the same as they are" argument just seems stupid to me. I don't know if PoS is the answer but something needs to change.

So you are basically telling us that btc will loose it's value if it will stay pow?

Of course not. The security system has very little to do with a coins value other than providing peace of mind. It provides a trust in the system that insurance gives to credit card fraud. Credit card/bank fraud happens all the time but people don't care because they trust that they will always get their money back. A cryptocoin's security system is supposed to be trustless. If well designed it ensures that transactions happen the way they're supposed to without issue. Fraud is obsolete in cryptocurrency IF the security system is well designed. All of the discussions you see about a 51% attack happen because there is a flaw in the security system that could allow fraudulent activity. The systems architect (satoshi) anticipated this problem and believed that the system would self correct. I disagree.

MarketNeutral

sr. member

Activity: 434

Merit: 252

Quote from: Possum577 on January 04, 2015, 12:59:44 PM

Are we still the "new wealthy elite" at ~$260 per coin? (I do realize this post was started at lower prices)

If your average cost per coin is sub $5 or $10 or $100 or even sub the current spot price, then.....well....maybe.

Many noobs forget that for many of us, Bitcoin topping $25 or $50 seemed an utter miracle at the time.

Guido

legendary

Activity: 1061

Merit: 1001

Quote from: Possum577 on January 04, 2015, 12:59:44 PM

Are we still the "new wealthy elite" at ~$260 per coin? (I do realize this post was started at lower prices)

hodl and buy more

Possum577

sr. member

Activity: 434

Merit: 250

Loose lips sink sigs!

Are we still the "new wealthy elite" at ~$260 per coin? (I do realize this post was started at lower prices)

BayAreaCoins

legendary

Activity: 4018

Merit: 1250

Owner at AltQuick.com

Quote from: QuestionAuthority on January 04, 2015, 11:47:20 AM

Yeah, the PoW system is looking more nutty to me every day. It's not just the wastefulness, scalability, or the equipment cost in upgrades and failures but the fact that eventually it has to become centralized. I have been here through every 51% scare starting with Deepbit and understand this system just can't be controlled with "goodwill" anymore. The arguments for the wasteful energy use are always beaten down with the claim that the modern banking system uses at least that much energy or more to move money around. Aren't we trying to be better than the current system though? The "we're the same as they are" argument just seems stupid to me. I don't know if PoS is the answer but something needs to change.

Agree.

This is where altcoins will play a big roll for "research".

I'm not sure if PoS is the correct system either because I see the flaws in it as well.

Bitcoin should stay the way it is for now while others duke it out... that's the main reason crypto needs 5 years to figure its self out.

pawel7777

legendary

Activity: 2436

Merit: 1561

Quote from: BayAreaCoins on January 04, 2015, 09:07:02 AM

...
I imagine you'd have a large number of Bitcoin miners who would be seriously butthurt about PoS.
...

Mining hardware manufacturers would be the ones with the real butthurt.

Miners - not necessarily. If you give them enough transition time (say 2 years) they could play on accumulating coins, so after 2 years they'll be doing essentially the same (generating new coins + earning tx fees) but without the huge costs.

picolo

hero member

Activity: 1022

Merit: 500

Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on January 04, 2015, 08:59:18 AM

Quote from: QuestionAuthority on January 04, 2015, 08:36:33 AM

It needs more people using it everyday as a payment system instead of miners dumping the coin as soon as they're mined.

Exactly. This is why PoS coins without inflation are not falling that much now and even rising BTC-wise.

The Bitcoin network is very safe because it's paying miners to mine.

Topic: I am pretty confident we are the new wealthy elite, gentlemen. - page 111. (Read 631982 times)