I found a paper wallet on a beach ... seriously - page 11.

dkbit98

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on August 04, 2022, 03:43:54 AM

So if you lost your mobile or hardware wallet on the street, you would have no problem with someone breaking in to it and emptying your wallets? How is that any different to emptying out a paper wallet you found which does not belong to you? Sure, OP is highly unlikely to get caught, but that hardly makes it morally OK.

But they are all locked and have security protection and passphrases, so they wouldn't be able to empty out anything (unless they are Kingpin), and you shouldn't carry your hardware or paper wallet on beach anyway.
Let's say few years ago I lost/forgot a photo camera in beach, and I never reported it as stolen because I lost it and it's my fault, nobody came and took it from me with a knife.
I am not going to put guilt on someone else for doing something wrong, when I was simply careless.

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on August 04, 2022, 04:38:56 AM

So hacking a hardware wallet is theft, but stealing a paper wallet isn't? Why?

Finding a paper wallet, not stealing.
There is a big difference.
If you think that any thing someone found was stolen in the world, than we are living in world that stole 99% of things and land from other people.
It's not the same if I found a piece of land nobody is using, and if I kill someone and take away land from him.

To conclude, I would personally try to find original owner of paper wallet.
After reasonable amount of time I would give one part to charity or poor people, and I would just stake rest of the coins for future.

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Quote from: Lucius on August 04, 2022, 08:43:13 AM

Given that the OP published the exact amount of BTC in question (0.6104), is it possible to search all addresses that contain exactly that amount in case it is only one address?

OP didn't mention the exact amount. He was only talking about an approximation:

Quote from: easternklaas on August 03, 2022, 08:36:59 PM

a btc balance of 0.6104...ish.

This discussion reminds me of all those topics where people discuss what should be done with lost coins or the coins that people consider to be lost and irretrievable. The answer is nothing. The network cannot and must not be manipulated to put any coins back into circulation just because some of them are lost or people consider them to be lost due to the fact they haven't moved in a decade. If immutability is a pillar of Bitcoin, it has to remain that no matter what. You don't know if I have coins that haven't moved in since 2012. Maybe I am planning to keep them there for 30 years and it's my retirement. I don't have to prove to anyone that I am still here and those are still my coins. Bitcoin stops being Bitcoin with such changes.

If OP can't find the right owner of the paper wallet, nothing should happen with those coins, ever. Maybe the wallet belongs to someone who invested in Bitcoin and has no interest in checking his wallet or the blockchain for the next decade or two, and once he is ready to use them in 20-30 years, they should still be there.

@OP do your best to try to find the legitimate owner but don't move their coins.

o_e_l_e_o

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Quote from: Charles-Tim on August 04, 2022, 05:26:10 AM

I just meant that it is easy to compromise a paper wallet if compared to a hardware wallet. Seeing a paper wallet is like seeing money, unlike hardware wallet that require extra work which the people given may not go for.

Irrelevant. Whether or not it is morally right to steal money which does not belong to you does not depend whatsoever on either how easy that money is to steal or how likely you are to get away with it.

Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on August 04, 2022, 05:57:03 AM

Isn't morally incorrect to not utilize money that might be lost?

No. Because bitcoin that might be lost equally might not be lost at all.

Quote from: Lucius on August 04, 2022, 08:43:13 AM

Given that the OP published the exact amount of BTC in question (0.6104), is it possible to search all addresses that contain exactly that amount in case it is only one address?

OP said "0.6104...ish". There are no addresses which contain exactly 0.6104 bitcoin. There are 85 addresses which contain between 0.61040000 and 0.61049999 bitcoin.

Minase

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18 wallets with that balance and all of them are over 2 years old

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Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on August 04, 2022, 05:57:03 AM

Isn't morally incorrect to not utilize money that might be lost? If you knew that it's likely for the owner to have lost access, wouldn't it be incorrect to "donate to everyone" instead of making a usage that's more morally correct, for example charity?

I would not move the Bitcoin at all. If they can prove they are the owner they can have it, if they can not then neither of us will have it, nor will they be donated or burned. I think this is the best way to do it and also the closest to what we consider to be 'moral' today.

Quote from: Lucius on August 04, 2022, 08:43:13 AM

Given that the OP published the exact amount of BTC in question (0.6104), is it possible to search all addresses that contain exactly that amount in case it is only one address?

Just wait for LoyceV's answer, they are probably preparing that just as we speak!

I would like to add that 0.6104 might actually not be the exact amount this paper wallet contains. So if anyone is looking through addresses, keep this in mind. Some wallets hide the last few digits, and OP's might have hidden them as well so it could be anything from 0.61040000 to 0.61049999. Should get a pretty short list of colliding results though, it is a pretty 'random' amount to have in a wallet.

-
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PrivacyG

Lucius

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Given that the OP published the exact amount of BTC in question (0.6104), is it possible to search all addresses that contain exactly that amount in case it is only one address? Maybe it would help in some way to get some information about the real owner - although it is not clear to me why the OP has not already published this information?

Maybe he still doesn't understand the difference between an address and a private key, but after 4 pages of discussion some things should be pretty clear...

BlackHatCoiner

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Quote from: PrivacyG on August 04, 2022, 05:20:48 AM

If I was OP, I would either hand it out to the right guy or, if that is not possible, then I would just consider the 0.6 BTC as yet another Bitcoin lost forever.

Isn't morally incorrect to not utilize money that might be lost? If you knew that it's likely for the owner to have lost access, wouldn't it be incorrect to "donate to everyone" instead of making a usage that's more morally correct, for example charity?

Let's say you never find contact with the owner. In that case:

There's a chance for the owner to still have access, and never realize he's lost the backup. Emptying the wallet in that case would be morally incorrect.
There's a chance for the owner to not have access, and can't provide you the necessary evidence. Burning the wallet in that case would be morally incorrect, because emptying it would have the potential to do more good than making everyone else's coins more valuable.

So, whether you burn or spend the coins, you have the potential to have incorrect attitude.

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on August 04, 2022, 04:38:56 AM

So hacking a hardware wallet is theft, but stealing a paper wallet isn't? Why?

I just meant that it is easy to compromise a paper wallet if compared to a hardware wallet. Seeing a paper wallet is like seeing money, unlike hardware wallet that require extra work which the people given may not go for. But you are right, it is good to go for the best option that would get back the coins to the real owner.

Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on August 04, 2022, 04:49:58 AM

I don't think it is. It's just the "Account private key".

Just passphrase are not stored on hardware wallet. I thought it is not new to you, a physical attack that can reveal Trezor seed phrase. Even on wallets that have secure element, the seed phrase are stored on secure element, but hard to compromised.

Quote from: https://wiki.trezor.io/Account_private_key

It is essential to store the recovery seed in a safe place - without it, all the private keys and funds are irreversibly lost.

A warning in case of a lost wallet.

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Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on August 04, 2022, 04:49:58 AM

And that's why I advice to send them the message. If they don't react after a certain time span, it's probably because they can't. You don't have many choices. You either decide to never touch the wallet acknowledging it doesn't fit your moral temperament or you decide to spend the money at some point in the future.

Or, they have not realized the paper wallet is missing yet or they are still hoping it was lost somewhere inside their house. Or, they just bought Bitcoin and decided to not touch them at all for a span of 1 or 2 decades. Or, who the heck knows.

I can only agree it is morally incorrect to play the 'finders keepers' game in this situation. Remember there are insanely large wallets that have not moved for a decade and started moving only this year (or last year). This could be yet another theoretically lost one, but practically who knows. It could be years from now that the owner will finally come to the surprising reality that their paper wallet has vanished.

I also support the idea of publishing the public key here just in case the owner has no other backup besides the one they lost on the beach. And if ownership can be proved, they can have it. If I was OP, I would either hand it out to the right guy or, if that is not possible, then I would just consider the 0.6 BTC as yet another Bitcoin lost forever.

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PrivacyG

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Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on August 04, 2022, 04:49:58 AM

Quote from: Charles-Tim on August 04, 2022, 04:33:03 AM

Seed phrase are stored on hardware wallet

I don't think it is. It's just the "Account private key".

I am just curious, how does Trezor wallet generate "hidden" private keys without knowing those mnemonic words?

BlackHatCoiner

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Quote from: Charles-Tim on August 04, 2022, 04:33:03 AM

Seed phrase are stored on hardware wallet

I don't think it is. It's just the "Account private key".

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on August 04, 2022, 04:38:56 AM

No, it isn't. The owner no longer has access to lost cash. The owner may very well still have access to these bitcoins.

And that's why I advice to send them the message. If they don't react after a certain time span, it's probably because they can't. You don't have many choices. You either decide to never touch the wallet acknowledging it doesn't fit your moral temperament or you decide to spend the money at some point in the future.

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Quote from: Charles-Tim on August 04, 2022, 04:03:39 AM

I think this is not the same as hardware wallet. If it is hardware wallet, the seed phrase is still secure and safe than to be compromised, unlike a private key that that is written on a paoer or card or where it was easily found written, I can assume it to be like that.

So hacking a hardware wallet is theft, but stealing a paper wallet isn't? Why?

Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on August 04, 2022, 04:16:58 AM

A paper wallet, if not written in a special way, is the same as cash.

No, it isn't. The owner no longer has access to lost cash. The owner may very well still have access to these bitcoins.

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Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on August 04, 2022, 04:16:58 AM

The seed phrase isn't saved in the hardware device, but the master private keys are. So, if you don't use a strong passphrase, you can have your funds confiscated without your permission.

That's why I said I would assume it is safe. It is very possible that the hardware wallet can be compromised, it depends. But I can still just consider it to be reported, unlike paper wallet's private key.

Seed phrase are stored on hardware wallet, that is the function of secure element, or microcontroller unit on wallet like Trezor, just that it is hard to reach or compromised if stored on secure element.

That is true, using a strong passphrase on hardware wallet just for extra protection would help against attack.

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on August 04, 2022, 03:43:54 AM

So if you lost your mobile or hardware wallet on the street, you would have no problem with someone breaking in to it and emptying your wallets? How is that any different to emptying out a paper wallet you found which does not belong to you?

If I found an object on the street that isn't mine, and whose ownership cannot be proven, I'd find it morally okay to keep it. For example, cash. A mobile or hardware wallet isn't good analogy, because the owner can very well prove it's theirs. A paper wallet, if not written in a special way, is the same as cash.

Quote from: Charles-Tim on August 04, 2022, 04:03:39 AM

I think this is not the same as hardware wallet. If it is hardware wallet, the seed phrase is still secure and safe than to be compromised

The seed phrase isn't saved in the hardware device, but the master private keys are. So, if you don't use a strong passphrase, you can have your funds confiscated without your permission.

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Quote from: easternklaas on August 03, 2022, 08:36:59 PM

I scanned the initially concealed QR code on my phone, entered the also concealed code and was presented with a web page with info pertaining to a btc balance of 0.6104...ish. Is this typical of how these things work?

It seems that you scanned and opened the address that hold the bitcoins on a blockchain explorer. It can be any of them. Here is an example of what info about a random BTC address you can find on Mempool.space for example. As you can see, there are 3 fields at the top: total received, total sent, and the final balance. Did you see similar data on your end as well? Does the address still contain the coins or did it only have a history of received bitcoin but a 0 final balance?

Quote from: easternklaas on August 03, 2022, 08:36:59 PM

I wasn't required to enter any other info. Seems a bit too easy to me....

Nothing else is needed to look up the balance of an address. It's a bit different when you want to spend the coins. For that you need a private key or the seed.

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on August 04, 2022, 03:43:54 AM

What? No. Finders keepers? So if you lost your mobile or hardware wallet on the street, you would have no problem with someone breaking in to it and emptying your wallets? How is that any different to emptying out a paper wallet you found which does not belong to you? Sure, OP is highly unlikely to get caught, but that hardly makes it morally OK.

I think this is not the same as hardware wallet. If it is hardware wallet, the seed phrase is still secure and safe than to be compromised, unlike a private key that that is written on a paoer or card or where it was easily found written, I can assume it to be like that. If it is a hardware wallet, I can report it to the appropriate governmental organization for appropriate action to look for the right owner, but if it is a paper wallet that everyone can see the private key easily written just on paper, I can think otherwise, especially in the kind of country I am that I know everyone are ready to scam you, including the government officials. I may just leave the coin there for years, later just move just like 1/10 of the coins and so on, I can do that for like 10 years. If no one moved the coin after so many years, then the coins are mine.

But if the remaining coin is moved to just one address, I will think the owner of the coin has known that his paper wallet has been compromised and moved the coin to another wallet. I can send worth of 9/10 of the total coin to the address the remaining coin was sent to and I will have 1/10. Just my opinion.

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Quote from: The Sceptical Chymist on August 03, 2022, 03:03:19 PM

IMO it'd be better to just quietly move those coins to your own wallet (after learning a little more about bitcoin).

I doubt the cops would ever find out if you just used the funds on the wallet you found. In crypto, it's basically finders-keepers in situations like this.

What? No. Finders keepers? So if you lost your mobile or hardware wallet on the street, you would have no problem with someone breaking in to it and emptying your wallets? How is that any different to emptying out a paper wallet you found which does not belong to you? Sure, OP is highly unlikely to get caught, but that hardly makes it morally OK.

Quote from: easternklaas on August 03, 2022, 08:36:59 PM

I scanned the initially concealed QR code on my phone, entered the also concealed code and was presented with a web page with info pertaining to a btc balance of 0.6104...ish. Is this typical of how these things work? I wasn't required to enter any other info. Seems a bit too easy to me....

All you need is the address (which one of the presumably two QR codes will be encoding) and you can look that address up on any public block explorer website* to see the balance. Every transaction on bitcoin is public and can be viewed by anyone. All you need to know is the relevant address.

Make sure you do not enter the private key in to an electronic device or scan its QR code, as doing so risks the funds being stolen.

*Examples:
https://mempool.space/
https://blockchair.com/

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Quote from: LoyceMobile on August 03, 2022, 04:08:32 PM

We have similar laws: it just means that when you find something, it's not automatically yours. I think there's a 1 year time limit here for the owner to show up.

Quote from: Porfirii on August 03, 2022, 04:15:25 PM

In Spain you should give it to the Mayor of the city where you found the paper wallet and, after two years, if nobody claims it, it would be returned to you so it would be yours. In the case you don't do it, it would suppose a crime of "misappropriation". (This figure is 133 years old Cheesy

)

....like I said, too many laws, too much restriction of freedom, too much government involvement. Somehow when someone loses something and another person finds it, the government has laws in place that mandate their meddling (for lack of a better word). I'm not an anarchist by any means, but if we're talking about someone finding something like a seed phrase where it's pretty damn hard to prove ownership of and puts the finder at risk of some potentially very unwanted publicity, I say the law conflicts with what is right.

Just my opinion, though. Hey OP, perhaps keep us updated if you pursue the find-the-rightful-owner route? I'd understand if you went immediately silent, however. *that's what I'd do*

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Quote from: n0nce on August 03, 2022, 06:17:27 PM

I do partly share Agbe's suspiciousness of easternklaas' story, to be fully honest.

Quote from: Agbe on August 03, 2022, 02:47:43 PM

You said, you did not know or have no idea on bitcoin or Wallet but from your discovery of the paper wallet, you noticed that it contained 0.6 BTC which you confirmed that it is bitcoin from the first sight.

On the other hand, it is plausible that where he lives, a lot of stuff is washed up and easternklaas enjoys picking up whatever interesting things are left in the sand.

]

Sorry,.. I maybe overstated my naivety.. I had heard of bitcoin & have a basic understanding of what coins are and how they work. I've never owned any or have ever cared to tbh. I didn't instantly recognise it as anything more than what I thought was a neatly folded cheque in a plastic pocket amongst the washed up Only upon drying the card was I rlly able to identify the btc logo.

There's soo much rubbish blown onto this beach. Beachcombing passes the time whilst the dogs chase birds and roll in the remains of dead fish. I also came home with 2 x rubber dog balls and a funky piece of driftwood.

I scanned the initially concealed QR code on my phone, entered the also concealed code and was presented with a web page with info pertaining to a btc balance of 0.6104...ish. Is this typical of how these things work? I wasn't required to enter any other info. Seems a bit too easy to me....

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Quote from: NeuroticFish on August 03, 2022, 03:57:41 PM

I think that you are overly confident in others' knowledge. The transaction to itself is a clever solution, I won't deny that, but I do expect some will only notice something is wrong if their funds are missing.
On the other hand, I also expect most people don't keep duplicates of the paper wallet, maybe not even duplicate of the address for watching its content online. The truth is that the chances of finding the real owner are not great.

I think it depends a lot on whether this is a seed phrase backup or a offline paper wallet.
In the former case, the user would absolutely notice the 2 transactions when opening their wallet application for the next time.
In the latter - unless they've set up a watch-only wallet - probably would not notice until far in the future.

Since easternklaas said the following, I'm not sure whether it's been 100% clarified if this is seed phrase backup of potentially someone's hot wallet, or the potentially only copy of a paper wallet.

Quote from: easternklaas on July 31, 2022, 06:32:44 PM

I have no idea about bitcoin or wallets aside from what I have discovered over last 24hrs,... which has led me here.

I do partly share Agbe's suspiciousness of easternklaas' story, to be fully honest.

Quote from: Agbe on August 03, 2022, 02:47:43 PM

You said, you did not know or have no idea on bitcoin or Wallet but from your discovery of the paper wallet, you noticed that it contained 0.6 BTC which you confirmed that it is bitcoin from the first sight.

On the other hand, it is plausible that where he lives, a lot of stuff is washed up and easternklaas enjoys picking up whatever interesting things are left in the sand.

Quote from: easternklaas on July 31, 2022, 06:32:44 PM

I saw and picked up what I thought was an odd looking piece of card in a dbl sealed plastic pocket whilst walking my dogs!

Topic: I found a paper wallet on a beach ... seriously - page 11. (Read 5717 times)