This is a very interesting topic and I will definitely watch the shows listed above. It may be because you are looking for more "scientific" research, but it surprises me that nobody has suggested watching The Danish Girl (film) yet.
IMO, as long as there is no universal truth, the way each individual sees the reality is what determines the gender of the ego, which may not coincide with the physiological one. The trans phenomenon may be labeled as "contra-natura" but the same happens with many other human behaviours that go against our primal instincts. Our capacity to use our imagination (comes from "image", seeing pictures in our minds) to shape our reality is what differentiates us from the other species, and my two cents is that it is in the core of the transgender raison d'être.
As a subjective topic, the general consensus is determinant on whether this disclosure is accepted or rejected in society. BitPotus talks about an agenda, and it may be possible in some western countries, but remember that there are still many others where these people are killed also, so the plan to encourage these people who want to choose their reality (gender) for commercial or political reasons is, to me, the lesser of two evils.
Topic: I need help understanding what trans people feel.... (Read 1282 times)
That video looks quite good, I'll have to take a look at that show on Netflix if it's out.
I updated my OP as I'm not as stupid as I was back then in my questioning now and know a lot more about it
And I can imagine many transphobes were in the Whitehouse a few weeks back .
There are quite a few decent documentaries and series on the topic, The one on Frontline answered more to your questioning (enquiry) and didn’t go into the “lifestyle” portion (two different topics that people too often intermingle). Yes Disclosure is currently on Netflix.
Not stupid at all, it says something about you to simply ask maybe you’ll gain some understanding or realize you couldn’t possibly; however just as you see in responses above, having a genuine conversation online would be a rare moment indeed and it would take someone strong enough to be that vulnerable/exposed along with not wanting to defend their very existence.
It’s courteous of you to post the trigger warning...yeah most already know what’s coming ;-)
Some of those stats are still relevant and discussed within the transgender community; to whatever end each person wants to comment on them also says as much about them.
https://youtu.be/ysbX6JUlaEc. ( Disclosure on Netflix —preview)
That video looks quite good, I'll have to take a look at that show on Netflix if it's out.
I updated my OP as I'm not as stupid as I was back then in my questioning now and know a lot more about it (through research and social interactions). It seems to have been a well covered topic over the last year (or I've just been sniffing for it).
And I can imagine many transphobes were in the Whitehouse a few weeks back .
https://youtu.be/uIuS-48tSpE. (Growing Up Trans in America: Frontline)
https://youtu.be/ysbX6JUlaEc. ( Disclosure on Netflix —preview)
https://youtu.be/ysbX6JUlaEc. ( Disclosure on Netflix —preview)
But can anyone explain to me why people would want to assign themselves a different gender and what they'd aim to achieve from that? I'm a cismale but if someone called me a "she" I don't think I'd particularly sweat it (especially if it wasn't in a condescending way).
They choose to assign themselves to the gender they associate with for them to properly express themselves and be their true selves (align to their gender identity and expression). I think that they choose to go through such a tedious process of transitioning because it helps them be comfortable with themselves and deal with their gender dysphoria. Trans individuals get offended when they get misgendered because it means that you don't acknowledge them. It can boost their ego A LOT. I get that its hard to understand having lived your whole life as cisgender but its that important to them.
Just for perspective, trans people dont choose to do transition or assign themselves a different gender just for the heck of it. Who in their right mind would voluntarily or actively choose to be ridiculed and experience discrimination their whole lives?
The way I think about it is that:
1. A man cannot biologically become a woman just as a woman cannot biologically transform into a man no matter how much surgery/pills/hormones or
whatever else they take.
2. There currently seems to be an agenda that's running rampant in this world where deviant and unnatural behaviours are being pushed hard onto
society in an attempt to normalize them. And if you state simple biological facts, like JK Rowling recently did, then the outrage mob will label you as
transphobic and try very hard to cancel you.
3. I personally think that transgender people are on some extreme spectrum of body dysmorphia, though apparently the correct term to use seems to be
gender dysmorphia.
4. I don't have any issues with them and am quite happy to let them be. Where I start having an issue is when you have a small extreme core that try to
cancel anyone that doesn't share their views.
5. I also think that transgender athletes should not be competing in women sports. It's really unfair towards real biological females.
6.
7. If Jesus is not coming and helping us out, then the next best thing would be:
1. A man cannot biologically become a woman just as a woman cannot biologically transform into a man no matter how much surgery/pills/hormones or
whatever else they take.
2. There currently seems to be an agenda that's running rampant in this world where deviant and unnatural behaviours are being pushed hard onto
society in an attempt to normalize them. And if you state simple biological facts, like JK Rowling recently did, then the outrage mob will label you as
transphobic and try very hard to cancel you.
3. I personally think that transgender people are on some extreme spectrum of body dysmorphia, though apparently the correct term to use seems to be
gender dysmorphia.
4. I don't have any issues with them and am quite happy to let them be. Where I start having an issue is when you have a small extreme core that try to
cancel anyone that doesn't share their views.
5. I also think that transgender athletes should not be competing in women sports. It's really unfair towards real biological females.
6.
7. If Jesus is not coming and helping us out, then the next best thing would be:
Well that went a little off topic by the end hmm....
I just can't picturea n idea of splitting up the camps so much between men and women. Statistically speaking, men are probably stronger and more intelligent (in certain regards), and women are more creative and better with organisation - but there are still many different outliers and confusions to this rule that it doesn't seem logical.
Also on your other topic of conversation, your penis doesn't become a penis until a few weeks after conception.... So you too have grown one of you're a biological male.
Can we not put trans people in their own category for sport?
I just can't picturea n idea of splitting up the camps so much between men and women. Statistically speaking, men are probably stronger and more intelligent (in certain regards), and women are more creative and better with organisation - but there are still many different outliers and confusions to this rule that it doesn't seem logical.
Also on your other topic of conversation, your penis doesn't become a penis until a few weeks after conception.... So you too have grown one of you're a biological male.
Can we not put trans people in their own category for sport?
We can't because that proves they aren't women.
Quote
Looks like iluvbitcoins advocates assigning gender based on "born with" equipment. Regardless of other considerations like:
I don't assign your gender. I'm not the genetic code.
Quote
Feelings
People have Body integrity dysphoria.They feel a desire to cut off their limbs.
Would you argue we should support them?
Quote
identity
I can identify as president of the United States. I'm still not the president.It's unhealthy and counterproductive to enable people in their delusions.
Quote
external looks
Biology.Quote
hormones
No, biology.Quote
chromosome abnormalities (Deletions, Duplications, Translocations, Inversions, Insertions, Rings,Isochromosome )
These are chromosome abnormalities which are biological -they're chromosome abnormalities.It's not the same as Body Integrity dysphoria and Gender dysphoria where the persons chromosomes don't have abnormalities.
They have a disphoria.
Quote
hermaphrodites
Hermaphordites are also biological hermaphrodites. They don't have a disphoria. Quote
It doesn't affect me but I wouldn't ridicule others over it.
Neither would I. I would ridicule "cis" people who support it because they're the ones at fault so many people mutilate themselves.Transgenders are not at fault here, they suffer a disorder called gender disphoria.
No sane person would ridicule a sick person.
It's your fault if you support that. You took a part in it.
Just google sex change regret and look at post surgery suicide rates which are in level of statistical error from presurgery suicide rates.
Nothing changes with the surgery. And you enable it.
Quote
It must be difficult to want to be different than what you have been supplied with or how others want to treat you.
Yes. It's very difficult.It's very difficult wanting to live without limbs when you have limbs in Body integrity disphoria.
Quote
Often suicides are about how they are not accepted by others.
It's because they don't accept themselves. And that's why they need counseling and psychotherapy. Not some idiots that say, go cut off your dick, you're going to be female and everything's going to be okay! Except they won't be okay and almost 40% will commit suicide - and they'll never be able to return to their pre-op state.
You do realize that if the he-she or she-he was a fraternal twin, and one of the embryos died and the other embryo absorbed it the survivor would have mixed male and female genes.
This has been detected in some people.
hermaphdrodites also exist.
So science has found many people that are truly mixed gene people.
The issue you have is not have they think or how they feel. The issue you have is are they crazy or liars.
The facts are simple science has yet to find a test that can fully detect if the he-she or she-he has mixed genetics.
My issue is lets say the person is mixed gene. The surgery does not work. You can not make babies
if you convert male to female. By that you do not make eggs and have a womb so why are we doing false surgery.
I would have zero issues taking some pills that truly let me be a woman. I have a curious mind.
I would even have a kid the natural way that a woman does. If I like it more then being a man I would stay a woman if not I would take pills to reverse the treatment and go back to being a man.
All fantasy since that treatment is not available.
My issue is not how a person thinks or fell about their genitalia.
I don't care what they think or feel about it.
It is their own body.
I do care that doctors are willing to fuck those bodies up with fake surgery that does not do a real change.
There are ONLY 2 sexes so they're just trying to confuse there 🤣.
If anyone's interested I found another topic, this one's on defining women: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.53988126
If anyone's interested I found another topic, this one's on defining women: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.53988126
Well I've just filled in a "tell us how we did" page on the McDonalds web site. Towards the end they asked me about my sex.I wanted to say "very satisfying thank you", but that wasn't an option. Instead, I have to select from a few tick boxes. The first were Male, Female and Binary, and there were a few others such as self-determined or something like that. I always thought that binary was something to do with digits, but I guess this isn't the meaning in this case. 
It's only a question of time when Social services are going to take your children away from you because they played with dolls and you refused to send them to sex reassingment surgery.
Sounds paranoid?
It's already happening.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6817935/Autistic-boy-taken-care-school-reports-parents-refusing-allow-sex-change-treatment.html
Sounds paranoid?
It's already happening.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6817935/Autistic-boy-taken-care-school-reports-parents-refusing-allow-sex-change-treatment.html
Fits my idea a 15 year old male with other issues autisic will very likley suffer terrible sexual frustration.
get conned by a bs shrink into blocking puberty. this relieves the sexual tension. the kid decides to do full surgery. it works and the kid become a decent looking girl. has a ton of sex from say 17 to 30.
then the sex gets old they sit down and say what have i done to myself and kill them selves.
instead of reassigning them to be a girl via drugs and surgery i would suggest Bangkok and study to be a he she. no surgery no drugs just makeup and acting out.
it would be reversible if they tire of it.
look at bruce jenner he still likes girls and last i read he kept his johnson so i don’t know how to classify him.
he does not really fit label.
It's only a question of time when Social services are going to take your children away from you because they played with dolls and you refused to send them to sex reassingment surgery.
Sounds paranoid?
It's already happening.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6817935/Autistic-boy-taken-care-school-reports-parents-refusing-allow-sex-change-treatment.html
Sounds paranoid?
It's already happening.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6817935/Autistic-boy-taken-care-school-reports-parents-refusing-allow-sex-change-treatment.html
Code:
[quote author=iluvbitcoins link=topic=5222701.msg53781085#msg53781085 date=1580959847]
[quote]That is terrible misuse of statistics.
Suicide and attempted suicide is not the same.[/quote]
I'm sorry but you're the one terribly misconstruing the points here.
You bolded a part that had nothing to do with the first part.
[quote]25% is tattoed.
Research you posted
Quote
Tattoos were found in 21% of suicides.[/quote]
Comparison between 25%-21% -> 19%
[quote]
The general population attempts suicide at a rate of 4.6%, the transgender community attempts it at a 40% rate.[/quote]
Comparison 4.6-40-> 900%
If I were to missconstruct your words like you did to me I would say
You claimed 21% of suicide victims had tattoos and that's the same as 18% of transgenders killing themselves?
21% of people who killed themselves compromise 25% of the population (which is actually a net negative and not a positive)
40% of a one group attemptting to killthemselves is the same in your eyes.
But I didn't say that because I think that wasn't the point you were making. At least I hope so.
I was obviously comparing a tenfold difference between your example with this one.
[quote]Anyone can fill out a survey and say they are suicidal.[/quote]
They didn't say they're suicidal.
They said they attempted suicide.
This comes from a far-left organization.
[quote]Why does the study on tattoos describe it as "associated with markers of high-risk behaviors".[/quote]
Probably because prison&gang subcultures are disproportionately engraved with tattoo cultures.
Why does it matter? The difference is statistically irrelevant.
[quote]While the transgender study describe it as "increased risk of suicide".[/quote]
You don't think if 4 out of 10 people attempt to kill themselves and 2 succeed [u]post-surgery.[/u] That's not an increased risk of suicide?
[quote]See the problem ? [/quote]
I literally have no idea what your point is.
There's a study that very slightly connects tattoes with violent crime (gangs,prisoners..) and there's a study that proves 4 out of 10 transgenders attempt suicide and 2 succeed, and that's supposed to prove something to me?
I'm sorry, I really don't know what I'm supposed to see here.
[quote]We also found that there are some factors that are associated with lower risk of suicide thoughts and
attempts for USTS respondents:
• Respondents with supportive families reported lower prevalence of past-year and lifetime suicide
thoughts and attempts.
• Those who wanted, and subsequently received, hormone therapy and/or surgical care had
substantially lower prevalence of past-year suicide thoughts and attempts than those who
wanted hormone therapy and surgical care and did not receive them.
• A lower proportion of respondents who lived in a state with a gender identity nondiscrimination
statute reported past-year suicide thoughts and attempts than those who lived in states without
such a statute.[/quote]
The biggest and probably longest study we quoted a couple of times already from egalitarian Sweden came with those 18% successful suicide rate where if you look at the graph most kill themselves after around ~10ish years from surgery and reaching its peak at around 15 where the mortality rate goes into freefall. Over 80% reported feeling better after surgery. Something changed after 10 years. Only a small part killed themselves immediately post op (you can see a dip in the graph) but the situation is relatively stable the first years after the operation. Everything falls apart after 10 years.
18% of them commit suicide after the operation and the biggest numbers from 10-15 years after the operation according to the egalitarian Swedish longitudinal study with the biggest size recorded yet.
Code:
[quote]https://medium.com/@sue.donym1984/the-transgender-movement-and-bad-stats-a-debunking-compilation-31760947b382[/quote]
First of all. Sue Donym isn't a legitimate source on anything.
Besides being obviously biased (https://medium.com/@sue.donym1984) she doesn't have any qualifications on the subject and her opinions shouldn't be quoted, she's not a scientist or a researcher.
[quote]That 41% stat is bogus.[/quote]
Okay, so that's a different study. But the results are almost the same.
You're saying transgenders don't know the difference between self-harm and a suicide attempt. I don't agree with that, I think we should believe people who say they tried to kill themselves because it's associated with a sense of shame and therefore very hard to admit.
Why that doesn't add up is also that there is one suicide for every estimated 25 suicide attempts. (according to the CDC), which includes self-harm.
Given that the CDC has correct data, and 18 out of a 100 transgenders commits suicide after surgery, how many of them actually commit it?
I'd say a lot of them try to hide it because of stigma associated with it and a feeling of shame&weakness generally associated with suicide.
But okay, even if we assume that's true.
How do you explain the [u]18% successful suicide rate among post-surgery transgenders[/u]?
How many suicides do you think end up unsuccessfully? You previously stated some do suicide attempts as a cry for help.
If you say only 40% including self harm attempt suicide and at a 25:1 ratio of succesful suicide attempts it would mean the operation severely damaged their mental health forcing every fifth transgender into suicide.
[quote]Why not ?
If you are going to cut your arm off with an axe or have it safely removed by a surgeon - because it causes you mental pain. Why should I stop you ?
The surgeon is the safer option.[/quote]
The problem is in your head, not in your hand. Wouldn't it be healthier to be cured and keep your hand ???
[/quote]
So do the surgery 20-25.
Docs do a good job. 10-15 Years of solid fucking and sucking with the well made body.
you would now be older with a womans body which often means it is harder to get sex.
thus fuck it may as well be dead.
a willing 20 year old guy may have trouble finding people to have sex with.
a willing 20 year old girl may find having sex partners is easy to do.
ten to fifteen years and it gets old.
the only issues i have is the pronouns some come up with are so non descript that it actually provokes drama by forcing people to ask more about it
for instance get rid of the 'they' 'them' pronoun.
and find ones of true relevance
i know things have become derogatory to use nowadays but.. 'he-she' or 'shemale' were amptly descriptive and useful for born male now female.. and the opposite
even things like female with female genitals that wants to identify as male=tomboy
as for the people that pretend they dont want to be defined . yet go out of their way to cause drama by dressing a certain way which would indicate their desired identity. to then argue and fight and moan if someone brings it up or doesnt use their prefered pronouns of 'them' 'they' 'strawberry' 'helicopter'
it actually becomes derogatory to say. 'them' in many cases.
infact someone went up to a person of coloured skin who was trans. and when using the term 'them' the coloured person created drama about how the other person was creating racial drama and started to go on a rant about how the coloured person was being persecuted and treated like their slave ancestors and not being defined as a human.
it all becomes rediculous drama provoking crap when people are trying to pretend to be something they are not.
im all for people wanting to be unique and open to identify themselves as how they feel. but dont just be a drone lemming following some social style craze of the 'them' 'they' pronoun. it dont make anyone special if you start conversations with 'i identify as the pronouns...' especially if the pronouns are not unique or descriptive
(by this i mean the trend followers. not the actual transcommunity)
im male. born male, will always be male and i like women. thus i say me.i.he.him (the traditional pronouns)
but just to rebuttal those trend folower drones who just want some attention seeking of a latest craze without understanding whats really going on biologically, psychologically... i tell them i identify as a helicopter, chopper and swirly whirly bird... and just see them try getting those pronouns into conversations without messing up
just to prove a point
for instance get rid of the 'they' 'them' pronoun.
and find ones of true relevance
i know things have become derogatory to use nowadays but.. 'he-she' or 'shemale' were amptly descriptive and useful for born male now female.. and the opposite
even things like female with female genitals that wants to identify as male=tomboy
as for the people that pretend they dont want to be defined . yet go out of their way to cause drama by dressing a certain way which would indicate their desired identity. to then argue and fight and moan if someone brings it up or doesnt use their prefered pronouns of 'them' 'they' 'strawberry' 'helicopter'
it actually becomes derogatory to say. 'them' in many cases.
infact someone went up to a person of coloured skin who was trans. and when using the term 'them' the coloured person created drama about how the other person was creating racial drama and started to go on a rant about how the coloured person was being persecuted and treated like their slave ancestors and not being defined as a human.
it all becomes rediculous drama provoking crap when people are trying to pretend to be something they are not.
im all for people wanting to be unique and open to identify themselves as how they feel. but dont just be a drone lemming following some social style craze of the 'them' 'they' pronoun. it dont make anyone special if you start conversations with 'i identify as the pronouns...' especially if the pronouns are not unique or descriptive
(by this i mean the trend followers. not the actual transcommunity)
im male. born male, will always be male and i like women. thus i say me.i.he.him (the traditional pronouns)
but just to rebuttal those trend folower drones who just want some attention seeking of a latest craze without understanding whats really going on biologically, psychologically... i tell them i identify as a helicopter, chopper and swirly whirly bird... and just see them try getting those pronouns into conversations without messing up
just to prove a point
Source. I mean, a credible source for that stat.
National Transgender Discrimination Survey (NTDS) 2015
If you read the thread, you'll find at least 2 sources on transgender self-reported suicide attempts and 1 on post-op suicides in Sweden.
One of them is the first result.
https://lmgtfy.com/?q=transgender+suicide+41%25
Transgenders cut their dick off and turn the skin inside out so it resembles a vagina.
41% of them commit suicide after the surgery.
Source. I mean, a credible source for that stat.
Quote
You can't use the statistics quoted by one study and compare it to another study if the sample is different.
Quote
1) Other factors have not been considered.
2) The data sets between the compared statistics are vastly different.
2) The data sets between the compared statistics are vastly different.
Are you serious? You did that, not me.
And when I pointed out obvious flaws in your statements you say you can't compare 2 studies with different samples you brought up
21% of suicides have a tattoo ≠ 21% of tattooed people
You're saying it doesn't matter a quarter of the population has tattooes when saying tattooed people compromise a fifth of the suicide cases?
Will address other things later on.
You're saying it doesn't matter a quarter of the population has tattooes when saying tattooed people compromise a fifth of the suicide cases?
Will address other things later on.
The article says 21% of suicides by young people are tattoed.
So saying 25% of the population including old people has tattoos is an irrelevant statistic.
Because it includes old people in that statistic.
Suicide deaths young people with tattoos = 21% of deaths by suicide.
Young people + old people with tattoes = 25% of the population ≠ 25% of young people have tattoos.
It also does not mean that tattoos cause suicides (or that tattoos prevent suicides.)
So rather than a cause - it is a common activity by people more prone to suicidal thoughts.
Other activities like violent death due to homicide, drug overdose and accidents can also alter suicide figures. Some "accidents" and "drug overdoses" are actually suicides. Incarceration can prevent suicides. So if a particular group is incarcerated they may be less likely to have the opportunity to suicide.
Do you seriously believe older people make up a bigger proportion of tattooed people than young generations do?
If 25% of the total population is tattooed, I'd assume the numbers are simmilar or larger for younger generations.
Even if they were double less, it's still not comparable to the transgender tenfold case, it would be only double.
You know what I'm speaking makes sense but you don't want to make sense, you want to be aligned with your belief, so you purposely make me look up stats although you know they're true.
If you're going to force me to look up everything that's common sense, I will.
https://www.ipsos.com/en-us/news-polls/more-americans-have-tattoos-today
Quote
Those under 55 years old are twice as likely to have at least one tattoo. Forty percent of those ages 18-34 and 36% of those ages 35-54 have at least one tattoo, while the same is true for only sixteen percent of those 55 years old and older. Additionally, those without a college degree are slightly more likely to have a tattoo or tattoos than those with a college degree (33% and 27% respectively
Other sources
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2008/12/09/tattooed-gen-nexters/
Quote
Gen Nexters, Americans in the 18-25 age bracket, are not afraid to express themselves through their appearance and tattoos are the most popular form of self-expression — more than one-in-three (36%) now has one
36% of the population of the 18-25 age bracket compromise 57% of the young suicide victims.
This puts them at 25:100 000 odds of successfully comitting suicide.
That's the same to you as 40% of A group attempting suicide and 18% succeeding?
These are 4:10 for attempted suicide and 2:10 for successful suicide.
25:100k and 2:10 is not comparable.
Transgender people need help. And not the enabling type of "help" which causes an 18% successful suicide rate post operation.
Lol the capitalist agenda 🤣... They should start publishing stuff themselves and not relying on huge publishers to do it for them.
There's no "agenda"; that's just how books are published, regardless of whether the mainstream publishing industry is good or bad. Why should trans authors do things differently just because they're trans?
Lol the capitalist agenda 🤣... They should start publishing stuff themselves and not relying on huge publishers to do it for them.
Acc the mathematicians don't make money on their books because people publish better resources for most things online...
Library's a good idea though, I'll have to check their catalog. And thanks for the link.
Acc the mathematicians don't make money on their books because people publish better resources for most things online...
Library's a good idea though, I'll have to check their catalog. And thanks for the link.
Like OK, but you're not getting anywhere of we all have to pay $20 to work out what's up....
Entitlement much? I suppose mathematicians aren't getting anywhere either by charging upwards of $200 for books about their subject. If you want educational material that someone else has worked hard to produce, sometimes you have to pay for it. What's wrong with that?Its clearly just a selling point for them...
Huh? No it isn't. Or at least, it's not just a selling point. It's no different from anyone else with an unusual characteristic or uncommon experience writing a book about it. Certainly nobody is putting themselves through all that just to get an interesting story they can sell for profit. Jump to: