Topic: I need help understanding what trans people feel.... - page 2. (Read 1282 times)

Or go to the library...

Or watch a TED talk...
https://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/this-what-it-feels-like-like-to-be-trans-jvinc/

It's funny, I was trying to look for if any trans people had written an autobiography and there's a load of books on them wanting equality and they all seem to be under copyright....

Like OK, but you're not getting anywhere of we all have to pay $20 to work out what's up.... Its clearly just a selling point for them...

The article says 21% of suicides by young people are tattoed.

So saying 25% of the population including old people has tattoos is an irrelevant statistic.

Because it includes old people in that statistic.

Suicide deaths young people with tattoos = 21% of deaths by suicide.

Young people + old people with tattoes = 25% of  the population ≠ 25% of young people have tattoos.

It also does not mean that tattoos cause suicides (or that tattoos prevent suicides.)

So rather than a cause - it is a common activity by people more prone to suicidal thoughts.

Other activities like violent death due to homicide, drug overdose and accidents can also alter suicide figures. Some "accidents" and "drug overdoses" are actually suicides. Incarceration can prevent suicides. So if a particular group is incarcerated they may be less likely to have the opportunity to suicide.

21% of suicides have a tattoo ≠ 21% of tattooed people
You're saying it doesn't matter a quarter of the population has tattooes when saying tattooed people compromise a fifth of the suicide cases?
Will address other things later on.

Transgender people are only a very small portion of the population.  Giving a very small sample to compare with the general population.

The fact that they want to change their gender means they have a serious change they want to make.

Without looking into other details such as previous mental health and other issues (mentioned earlier) you cannot draw a conclusion from the statistics quoted.

Without looking into all the additional factors any conclusions from statistics are not accurate.

1) Other factors have not been considered.
2) The data sets between the compared statistics are vastly different.



You can't use the statistics quoted by one study and compare it to another study if the sample is different.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10837885

The 21% refers to young people only. So a reference to 25% of the population as tattood is irrelevant because it does not mention the amount of young people that are tattood or even how "young person" was defined.

The same article also states "Fifty-seven percent of young white suicides were tattooed".

So if you want to misquote statistics. A young tattooed white male is more likely to commit suicide than a transgender person.

If those transgender people were all tattooed white males and transformed to females:
1) they may have reduced their suicide risk.
2) delayed committing suicide to later in life.

Without further study none of those statistics are useful in determining whether transitioning was a factor in their suicide.

I'm sorry but you're the one terribly misconstruing the points here.
You bolded a part that had nothing to do with the first part.


Comparison between 25%-21% -> 19%


Comparison 4.6-40-> 900%

If I were to missconstruct your words like you did to me I would say
You claimed 21% of suicide victims had tattoos and that's the same as 18% of transgenders killing themselves?
21% of people who killed themselves compromise 25% of the population (which is actually a net negative and not a positive)
40% of a one group attemptting to killthemselves is the same in your eyes.
But I didn't say that because I think that wasn't the point you were making. At least I hope so.
I was obviously comparing a tenfold difference between your example with this one.


They didn't say they're suicidal.
They said they attempted suicide.
This comes from a far-left organization.


Probably because prison&gang subcultures are disproportionately engraved with tattoo cultures.
Why does it matter? The difference is statistically irrelevant.

You don't think if 4 out of 10 people attempt to kill themselves and 2 succeed post-surgery. That's not an increased risk of suicide?

I literally have no idea what your point is.
There's a study that very slightly connects tattoes with violent crime (gangs,prisoners..) and there's a study that proves 4 out of 10 transgenders attempt suicide and 2 succeed, and that's supposed to prove something to me?
I'm sorry, I really don't know what I'm supposed to see here.


The biggest and probably longest study we quoted a couple of times already from egalitarian Sweden came with those 18% successful suicide rate where if you look at the graph most kill themselves after around ~10ish years from surgery and reaching its peak at around 15 where the mortality rate goes into freefall. Over 80% reported feeling better after surgery. Something changed after 10 years. Only a small part killed themselves immediately post op (you can see a dip in the graph) but the situation is relatively stable the first years after the operation. Everything falls apart after 10 years.
18% of them commit suicide after the operation and the biggest numbers from 10-15 years after the operation according to the egalitarian Swedish longitudinal study with the biggest size recorded yet.


First of all. Sue Donym isn't a legitimate source on anything.
Besides being obviously biased (https://medium.com/@sue.donym1984) she doesn't have any qualifications on the subject and her opinions shouldn't be quoted, she's not a scientist or a researcher.


Okay, so that's a different study. But the results are almost the same.

You're saying transgenders don't know the difference between self-harm and a suicide attempt. I don't agree with that, I think we should believe people who say they tried to kill themselves because it's associated with a sense of shame and therefore very hard to admit.

Why that doesn't add up is also that there is one suicide for every estimated 25 suicide attempts. (according to the CDC), which includes self-harm.
Given that the CDC has correct data, and 18 out of a 100 transgenders commits suicide after surgery, how many of them actually commit it?
I'd say a lot of them try to hide it because of stigma associated with it and a feeling of shame&weakness generally associated with suicide.
But okay, even if we assume that's true.

How do you explain the 18% successful suicide rate among post-surgery transgenders?
How many suicides do you think end up unsuccessfully? You previously stated some do suicide attempts as a cry for help.

If you say only 40% including self harm attempt suicide and at a 25:1 ratio of succesful suicide attempts it would mean the operation severely damaged their mental health forcing every fifth transgender into suicide.


The problem is in your head, not in your hand. Wouldn't it be healthier to be cured and keep your hand  

That is terrible misuse of statistics.

Suicide and attempted suicide is not the same.

A filled out survey and death statistics are vastly different.

Anyone can fill out a survey and say they are suicidal. No clinical check up. No prodding about underlying issues.

Why does the study on tattoos describe it as "associated with markers of high-risk behaviors".

While the transgender study describe it as "increased risk of suicide".

See the problem ?
Transgender also is  "associated with markers of high-risk behaviors" such as prostitution and substance abuse.
https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/Transgender-Suicide-Sept-2019.pdf

As well as unique issues:

Experiencing discrimination or mistreatment in education, employment, housing, health care, in
places of public accommodations, or from law enforcement

Rejection by family.

Rejection by religious organisations.

Experiences of violence


The following is really revealing:


Why not ?

If you are going to cut your arm off with an axe or have it safely removed by a surgeon - because it causes you mental pain. Why should I stop you ?

The surgeon is the safer option.

You're seriously considering supporting people in their wish to cut off their limbs?


25% is tattoed.
Research you posted


That's a really slight difference from the general population, which could be attributed to various subcultures surrounding prison&gang population that include a lot of tattoos.

The general population attempts suicide at a rate of 4.6%, the transgender community attempts it at a 40% rate.
That difference is not slight. It's a 9:1 ratio compared to the 1.19:1 of the tattoo community. 19% increase and 900% (while transgenderism isn't attributed to certain subcultures while tattoos are).


Normalizing transgenderism will create new transgenders which will eventually become depressed and in vast amounts even commit suicide.
Children are talked into transgenderism on a daily basis.
I can substantiate this very well if necessary.


I have posted the same data from National Center for Transgender Equality. I'm positive they're not right-wing.
Their hompeage has a picture that says 'Equality for Transgenders' and the name is National Center for Transgender Equality.
https://transequality.org/sites/default/files/docs/usts/USTS-Full-Report-Dec17.pdf

The article you posted is pure propaganda. Almost nothing in it is fact.

1. Not right wing
2. He is the LGBTIQ+ people

So unbiased

Anti LGBT? He's a transgender who went through sex reassingment surgery!


Debunked?
We just read through longitudinal research papers that prove male-to-female post-op suicide risk increases and female-to-male remains the same.

*inserted CNN clip*
 

40% of them attempt suicide. You don't believe that's a mental problem?

Why did you think a transgender person who went through sexual reassingement surgery is right-wing and anti-LGBT?

I found one short documentary that includes the person that's described here. You should watch it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pxxBQm114k
There's a lot of people that think surgery is a bad idea and sex can't be changed.
The media calls them transgender haters even when they ARE transgenders just because it doesn't fit their narrative.

It would depend on the circumstances.

How severe are the symptoms ? - How severe is the loss of limb ? - Is the person capable of making an informed decision ? - What is the risk that the person will remove the limb themselves ?



A case-control study of tattoos in young suicide victims as a possible marker of risk.

Tattoo frequency and types among homicides and other deaths, 2007-2008: a matched case-control study.

Are Tattoos an Indicator of Severity of Non-Suicidal Self-Injury Behavior in Adolescents?

https://www.advdermatology.com/blog/statistics-surrounding-tattoo-regret


Just because something may have a negative effect on some people doesn't mean that other people should be disadvantaged by it.

Also statistics have to be seen in context. The statistics I have seen do not rule out other causes.

"Attempting suicide" is also not the same as "committing suicide".

Attempts are often a cry for help. It could also be due to bullying, discrimination, financial strains, depression, PTSD or many other factors - rather than re-assignment regret . It also doesn't show whether the re-assignment prolonged the will to live.

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885

The study also mentions AIDS and doesn't mention their background (e.g. former or current sex workers). It is also a possible side effect from the hormone treatment or other medications.

In countries where euthanasia is accepted by the majority of the population - suicide to prevent suffering (e.g. from the symptoms of AIDS) it is possible that it accounts for some of the suicides.

The 40% statistic is something that has been touted by right-wing activist Walt Heyer

Not all transgender suffer from gender dysphoria.


https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/gender-dysphoria

Discriminatory experiences associated with posttraumatic stress disorder symptoms among transgender adults

Would you apply the same logic you mentionted to Body integrity disphoria?

I don't believe anything that doesn't cause harm to other people should be banned - by law. It's up to the people to choose.
But people who care about that person shouldn't allow him if it's within their power (using conversation, advice, support etc.)
People don't kill themselves because of tattoo regret (not usually at least). Chimps are racist as well, but I doubt they mutilate their own genitals.
We just crossed a research that stated that male-to-female post-op have an increased risk of suicide than before the operation. Why would we encourage them to do it?

People can have silicone implants to enhance their appearance. Body modifications, piercings and tattoos.

Why would you not allow people to re assign their sex ?

Any body modification comes with the chance of regret. Just google tattoo regret.

But just because some people regret it doesn't mean it should be banned or not be done.

Psychology is not a pure science. The DSM manual(Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders) changes over time based on opinions. Homosexuality was a disorder in the DSM-3

One could argue that terrorism, extreme sexism, religious extremism or extreme racism is a mental disorder - yet that is not categorized in the DSM except for Hyperreligiosity

I imagine saying something along the lines 'counseling and psychotherapy would help transgender people,not reassingment' would cause quite an uproar and is therefore disincetivized.
You can always use the data that is allowed.
You can definitely find something even in the research that's focused on reassingment

Yeah I can't find any other source here. Apparently universities are turning down opportunities to research it for fear of being labelled politically incorrect. Or somethin glike that.

I didn't say the data you quoted is incorrect, I said that you shouldn't quote the article. They are news reporters and not scientists.
You should of quoted the paper because reports aren't a legitimate source on the issue.
The research they quote - is a research and is legitimate, the description of it may be, or may not be.
Will look it up and edit this post in a couple of minutes.

Edit:

Source:
https://transequality.org/sites/default/files/docs/usts/USTS-Full-Report-Dec17.pdf

The Research and Development Directorate of the NHS Executive is quoting death by suicide. 18% die from suicide and 40% seem to commit it (succesfully and unsuccessfully). It's relieving to see less than half succeed.

If you look at the post op data
This is the biggest and longest study yet I believe
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885



You can see after the first year they probably do feel better etc. but after ~10 years their mortality rate is almost in free-fall (mostly suicides) and diverges on average some ~13% from the control group.
If the attempted suicide rate in the US is 4.6%, and the average succesful suicide rate among the trangender community is 18%.
We can assume the 13% divergance rate from the control group bears no relevant statistical improvoment on the preoperation period.
It obviously does alleaviate some symptoms of gender dysphoria as the participants report they do feel better but their mental health doesn't improve at all.

I'm after finding where your 40% figure came from.


Although maybe you've just plucked it from thin air now and assigned it to that.

I'm not sure what info you're looking for exactly?
But using a search engine to find scientific literature and statistics is a way to go.
I mean you can use the media to find research papers but avoid reading any info they've written about it other than stating facts.

So provide your own from a legitimate source?

You're making a mistake using the media to get scientific information.
Most of the information you get from the media is biased, cherry-picked or even flat out lies.
I can support this claim if necessary with a whole new thread.

Besides the obvious suicide rates, irreversible genital mutilation, and trans regret this "you're female if you feel like it" sets a precedent.
If you can feel like a different sex and compell other people to oblige to your feeling, how long until other things become obliged because someone feels like something? What happens when I start feeling 15?
Why would we discriminate against 40 year olds who feel 15? They are 15! And you're just discriminating against them.
Sex with minors isn't illegal if you're 15.

Tbf, it's hard to work out what's fact and what's fiction:

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2004/jul/30/health.mentalhealth

(the guardian are fairly left leaning, more left than I am but still seem to not be too far gone as to be overly biased)...

I know of no cure that causes a 40% suicide rate with irreversible genital mutilation and even those surviving it regretting taking the cure.

How many transgenders killed themselves 50 years ago when their delusions weren't enabled?