Topic: I think BFL deserves a bit more benefit of the doubt (Read 4578 times)
I like popcorn with butter and salt.
How is that benefit of the doubt going for you now?
Far better than if they had ever "invested" with your scams that STILL haven't produced a single thing. How's the Hive & Wasp going, that you promised to ship in December? It's what... middle of January and nary a wisp of Wasp.
Give it a rest, Josh. Do you always have to go into attack mode?
Hindsight is always 20/20. My hindsight says BFL was not the best choice, but it was not the worst either, but only because they delivered something, eventually....
How is that benefit of the doubt going for you now?
Far better than if they had ever "invested" with your scams that STILL haven't produced a single thing. How's the Hive & Wasp going, that you promised to ship in December? It's what... middle of January and nary a wisp of Wasp.
How is that benefit of the doubt going for you now?
Gotta love BFL investers posting about how great the company they financed is going. So glad i went with kncminer.
How is that benefit of the doubt going for you now?
Without accusing you of anything, your posts here could easily be interpreted as you pumping them up; this exhibits shill behavior.
the fact is that BFL NEVER gets back to anyone in a timely manner. so your premise is 100% wrong.
Hey I'm just calling it like I see it. I wrote them 9 seperate emails and in each one, my question was answered fully within 24 hours. Some times on weekends.
...
My biggest issue has to do with their apparent lack of perspective.
...
My biggest issue has to do with their apparent lack of perspective.
...
Biggest understatement of the Bitcoin mining world.
Supposedly, they hire 20+ people. Lease a new office. 2 weeks to respond to customer inquiries. Sitting on their thumbs at work. Not truly knowing what their doing - hence the poor outcomes.
Bashing people on the forums. Complete BS PR from October '12 until Feb '13. Now, only slightly more informative than before. None of their timelines on product development and heat testing match (Oct - Nov) up.
It's beyond belief, but we would have all been better off going with nzhang or friedcat. They knew how to get the job done without excessive amounts of PR spin.
And now we wait again. Wait for BFL to fix their marketing centerpiece - power efficiency.
What BFL may have may cooking may become completely irrelevant if major ASIC competitors take their operating profits and income (you know, that stuff BFL customers wish they had) and invest it into lower process chips. By the time BFL is shipping their December orders from last year Avalon or ASICMiner may be shipping something that does twice the hash or uses less power (BFL's original selling point).
BFL's "recent progress" raises some questions that are hard for me to square.
I think it is clear they have something. At least one asic prototype running (albeit not near spec)... not really sure if any kind engineering black magic at BFL is needed to keep that board alive or not.
My biggest issue has to do with their apparent lack of perspective.
Those of us who are GPU miners (which I think is the bulk of miners out there), are used to having a lot of ugly slapped on our rigs. It is all about function... form is irrelevant. Having the case open with a giant room fan blowing in there would be rule more than the exception I would think.
Lets assume the problem is solely about the additional power draw and therefore the problem is with power/cooling... I would guess that a good number of their customers would be happy to receive whatever they have now without any kind of case and insufficient cooling and mine at 25Gh/s next week (and the customer deals with finding an adequate cooling solution) rather than maybe in 3 months and have the sleekest ipod of miners.
I cancelled my BFL order about a month back, so I don't have a horse in their race. But my guess is... if this were an option, people would take it. If it isn't an option... then how did they produce the current "working" machine? If the prototype was not something they are prepared to produce in numbers at this phase in their development... then yeah... they are in big trouble. If BTC drops down to a point where people who pre-ordered with BTC would feel okay with the original purchase price gap and issue a return... then I think they are in trouble as well.
So... I am having trouble understanding their current situation. Do they have a prototype that is working but flawed which they could release... or don't they... in which case... what are we looking at on eligius/eclipsemc or where ever lukerjr is mining with his "shipped" board?
I think it is clear they have something. At least one asic prototype running (albeit not near spec)... not really sure if any kind engineering black magic at BFL is needed to keep that board alive or not.
My biggest issue has to do with their apparent lack of perspective.
Those of us who are GPU miners (which I think is the bulk of miners out there), are used to having a lot of ugly slapped on our rigs. It is all about function... form is irrelevant. Having the case open with a giant room fan blowing in there would be rule more than the exception I would think.
Lets assume the problem is solely about the additional power draw and therefore the problem is with power/cooling... I would guess that a good number of their customers would be happy to receive whatever they have now without any kind of case and insufficient cooling and mine at 25Gh/s next week (and the customer deals with finding an adequate cooling solution) rather than maybe in 3 months and have the sleekest ipod of miners.
I cancelled my BFL order about a month back, so I don't have a horse in their race. But my guess is... if this were an option, people would take it. If it isn't an option... then how did they produce the current "working" machine? If the prototype was not something they are prepared to produce in numbers at this phase in their development... then yeah... they are in big trouble. If BTC drops down to a point where people who pre-ordered with BTC would feel okay with the original purchase price gap and issue a return... then I think they are in trouble as well.
So... I am having trouble understanding their current situation. Do they have a prototype that is working but flawed which they could release... or don't they... in which case... what are we looking at on eligius/eclipsemc or where ever lukerjr is mining with his "shipped" board?
I have been dealing with them for about 3 months now. They have always returned every email I have sent them in a timely manner. I was going to be in the area (this ended up not working out) and asked If I could tour the facility and see the build process. They told me sure no problem but they expected to be extremely busy trying to get everything lined up so it might be better if I give them two weeks.. They also told me they want to be a long term mining partner and warned me not to buy a mining rig if I was hoping to just make fast profits. They said realistically it would be about a year ROI to get the money back.
So far, the company has been professional, honest, had a good attitude about it.
Now for the people who are going to jump in about how they have not delivered in 7 months, I have to say.
I have been doing some homework on what it takes to design an asic, get it produced, and turned into a finalized product. Hint* not easy.
Now I can believe that maybe these guys are kinda learning as they go. And they are using everyone else money to do it. I grant that. But the same could be said for almost any new business. I started a company 8 years ago out of my garage, just poof made it up one day. And Yes I had the basics down in the beginning but honestly we were not that good at what we were doing for a few years.
Also, Successful Business veterans quickly learn that its very easy mistake to make which is to not properly set a customers expectations. I can see that BFL is obviously guilty of this. It is clearly documented that they have said multiple times when something was going to happen and it didn't due to unforeseen complexities in the process.
But lets be honest for a moment. From what I can see, if they are a scammer company they are doing a very bad job about it.
1) Have a public office where anyone can visit any time they want
2) This is their 2nd round of hardware (fpga's to asics?)
3) They are putting alot of money into R&D into software, and hardware design in support of the community with relatively low returns. Probably working insane hours to do it.
4) giving refunds to unhappy customers
5) offering lifetime warranty on all their products.
I say give them a break, If you don't believe in them, don't fucking buy anything from them. But to openly accuse them of fraud, cheating, lying, and all the other shit I have been reading seems to be unwarranted to me. I ordered a minirig from them and I want it to work correctly for at least a few years. I want it to be well built and if that takes a little bit longer to make it awesome, then so be it.
I don't want some piece of shit they just slapped together so I can have the 2 week advantage over everyone else. I would rather it take a few extra weeks if that means they are going to do it right.
Another point is, we need companies like BFL who are willing to invest in the infrastructure if bitcoin is to survive long term. Yea they have some faults, hopefully they will learn their lesson and start doing what every good business man does. Under promise and over deliver. Right now they have been over promising for a while and I think that is why so much negativity is going their way at the moment.
I know I'm probably in the minority given the tone on these forums but I just wanted to throw out my two btc.
So far, the company has been professional, honest, had a good attitude about it.
Now for the people who are going to jump in about how they have not delivered in 7 months, I have to say.
I have been doing some homework on what it takes to design an asic, get it produced, and turned into a finalized product. Hint* not easy.
Now I can believe that maybe these guys are kinda learning as they go. And they are using everyone else money to do it. I grant that. But the same could be said for almost any new business. I started a company 8 years ago out of my garage, just poof made it up one day. And Yes I had the basics down in the beginning but honestly we were not that good at what we were doing for a few years.
Also, Successful Business veterans quickly learn that its very easy mistake to make which is to not properly set a customers expectations. I can see that BFL is obviously guilty of this. It is clearly documented that they have said multiple times when something was going to happen and it didn't due to unforeseen complexities in the process.
But lets be honest for a moment. From what I can see, if they are a scammer company they are doing a very bad job about it.
1) Have a public office where anyone can visit any time they want
2) This is their 2nd round of hardware (fpga's to asics?)
3) They are putting alot of money into R&D into software, and hardware design in support of the community with relatively low returns. Probably working insane hours to do it.
4) giving refunds to unhappy customers
5) offering lifetime warranty on all their products.
I say give them a break, If you don't believe in them, don't fucking buy anything from them. But to openly accuse them of fraud, cheating, lying, and all the other shit I have been reading seems to be unwarranted to me. I ordered a minirig from them and I want it to work correctly for at least a few years. I want it to be well built and if that takes a little bit longer to make it awesome, then so be it.
I don't want some piece of shit they just slapped together so I can have the 2 week advantage over everyone else. I would rather it take a few extra weeks if that means they are going to do it right.
Another point is, we need companies like BFL who are willing to invest in the infrastructure if bitcoin is to survive long term. Yea they have some faults, hopefully they will learn their lesson and start doing what every good business man does. Under promise and over deliver. Right now they have been over promising for a while and I think that is why so much negativity is going their way at the moment.
I know I'm probably in the minority given the tone on these forums but I just wanted to throw out my two btc.
Without accusing you of anything, your posts here could easily be interpreted as you pumping them up; this exhibits shill behavior.
the fact is that BFL NEVER gets back to anyone in a timely manner. so your premise is 100% wrong.
1) So the update said pretty much what I was expecting. The software is almost done, we have changed the power profile and had to change the board design to accommodate which is almost done, we are shipping out the dev units, and doing all the little 100's of details that make for a properly engineered and tested product. No surprise here. In fact, encouraging as it gives insight into exactly where everything stands.
I think we are 2 months or less at this point.
I think we are 2 months or less at this point.
Notice that this is not surprising exactly because they have been saying these kind of things since october.
Also, please read the latest BFL propaganda again.
They want to stress that the chips are absolutely fine, except that they use up more power than was designed. But that's still ok, according to BFL.
But it's not. If the ICs use up a lot more power than designed for than there is something bad with the chips as well.
You have to look for those details because if there is one thing that i've learned about the way BFL operates then its that this little "the chips are fine" will turn into "We'll have to redo most of the ICs" in a couple of weeks.
The problems with the board were also fixable 'with a little tuning' and they would have delivered their product a couple of weeks ago.
Now the story has progressed over a couple of communications from 'Just some minor power problems with the board, will be done in a few days' to 'we need new boards and have no real shipping date at the moment'.
I guess that's just the difference in perception between us. Having been involved in a myriad of products from the initial design all they way to finished product... I can tell you from personal experience that having chips come out drawing more power or generating more heat than expected isn't the end of the production cycle. Sure it can change the game. But you don't just junk the entire design and do something else.
Once upon a time intel was developing Silverthorne - it was designed to an x86 processor for cellphones. They were trying to compete with motorola and mitsubishi. The tech worked, but needed more power and generated way more heat than expected. This tech didn't just dry up and go away... The changed the sales model, rebranded it under centrino as "Atom" and pushed it for handheld devices like tables and netbooks. This lead directly to the explosion of tablets as a consumer product. I don't believe there's a single cell phone that has an atom in it... but there are micro computers (in use as terminals and budget pcs) and hundreds types of tablets and 'netbooks' (micro laptops) that use them.
Nice story! Never knew atom was designed as a phone cpu.
But even then, intel is meaningless in the phone/tablet market. They never were able to catch up.
I seriously hope for everyone involved that BFL won't screw up their market like intel has been doing the past decade.
Quote
BFL is on the right track - redesign the board to supply the power needed while keeping temps stable, change the sales specs and ship the coffee warmer to consume the old tech board that would have been singles. Personally I think the very best move they could make would be devolping something where the top of it was a massive heatsink. and making it modular, to be plugged into the rack assembly they would sell. I'm thinking 4u rack that takes 3 mini-single modules. maybe just 4 chips per device.
I think the biggest hurdle for them is giving up the tiny size they had from FPGA days, get over it, go a bit bigger so you can cool the thing effectively... etc. Give me a metal packaged chip (or 4) that on a board that has AM3 holes for mounting a cpu heatsink and fan on top of it... that would make me very happy. Design the entire thing with a stacked heatsink that has a pair of 120mm fans on each side... design them so they could be assembled into a wall via interlocks on the sides, top and bottom of the case... one side air intake and other side of the wall being the exhaust... have the thing blow through.
I think the biggest hurdle for them is giving up the tiny size they had from FPGA days, get over it, go a bit bigger so you can cool the thing effectively... etc. Give me a metal packaged chip (or 4) that on a board that has AM3 holes for mounting a cpu heatsink and fan on top of it... that would make me very happy. Design the entire thing with a stacked heatsink that has a pair of 120mm fans on each side... design them so they could be assembled into a wall via interlocks on the sides, top and bottom of the case... one side air intake and other side of the wall being the exhaust... have the thing blow through.
Modular would be cool.
In fact, i don't understand why they try to make such good looking products while the shelf life is pretty short.
I'd rather buy something more, eeh, russian (
) in design that can come to market faster.Thermal design is a bit hard to do if your ic's use more power than anticipated. It screws up everything about what you thought will happen inside the box.
BFL had designed their board and cases before even having a prototype.
Now that the chips are out of spec they need to redesign the rest of the system to accomodate.
I'm not sure, but i'm getting the idea that their yields are pretty broad, quality wise. Which would suggest that they either have to divide the batches in quality stacks or they have to make sure every assembled box is cool enough to handle the worst cases.
I think it depends on the spread of the yield.
But there is something fishy going on whatever it is. I have the feeling they are not telling the whole truth about the situation.
Two weeks ago they were saying that they will probably ship the product last week. Now they say they are waiting for the revised boards to be shipped to them which means they are a week late from their last prognosis and still dont have the boards.
My guess is they're finding new problems but time will tell.
1) So the update said pretty much what I was expecting. The software is almost done, we have changed the power profile and had to change the board design to accommodate which is almost done, we are shipping out the dev units, and doing all the little 100's of details that make for a properly engineered and tested product. No surprise here. In fact, encouraging as it gives insight into exactly where everything stands.
I think we are 2 months or less at this point.
I think we are 2 months or less at this point.
Notice that this is not surprising exactly because they have been saying these kind of things since october.
Also, please read the latest BFL propaganda again.
They want to stress that the chips are absolutely fine, except that they use up more power than was designed. But that's still ok, according to BFL.
But it's not. If the ICs use up a lot more power than designed for than there is something bad with the chips as well.
You have to look for those details because if there is one thing that i've learned about the way BFL operates then its that this little "the chips are fine" will turn into "We'll have to redo most of the ICs" in a couple of weeks.
The problems with the board were also fixable 'with a little tuning' and they would have delivered their product a couple of weeks ago.
Now the story has progressed over a couple of communications from 'Just some minor power problems with the board, will be done in a few days' to 'we need new boards and have no real shipping date at the moment'.
I guess that's just the difference in perception between us. Having been involved in a myriad of products from the initial design all they way to finished product... I can tell you from personal experience that having chips come out drawing more power or generating more heat than expected isn't the end of the production cycle. Sure it can change the game. But you don't just junk the entire design and do something else.
Once upon a time intel was developing Silverthorne - it was designed to an x86 processor for cellphones. They were trying to compete with motorola and mitsubishi. The tech worked, but needed more power and generated way more heat than expected. This tech didn't just dry up and go away... The changed the sales model, rebranded it under centrino as "Atom" and pushed it for handheld devices like tables and netbooks. This lead directly to the explosion of tablets as a consumer product. I don't believe there's a single cell phone that has an atom in it... but there are micro computers (in use as terminals and budget pcs) and hundreds types of tablets and 'netbooks' (micro laptops) that use them.
BFL is on the right track - redesign the board to supply the power needed while keeping temps stable, change the sales specs and ship the coffee warmer to consume the old tech board that would have been singles. Personally I think the very best move they could make would be devolping something where the top of it was a massive heatsink. and making it modular, to be plugged into the rack assembly they would sell. I'm thinking 4u rack that takes 3 mini-single modules. maybe just 4 chips per device.
I think the biggest hurdle for them is giving up the tiny size they had from FPGA days, get over it, go a bit bigger so you can cool the thing effectively... etc. Give me a metal packaged chip (or 4) that on a board that has AM3 holes for mounting a cpu heatsink and fan on top of it... that would make me very happy. Design the entire thing with a stacked heatsink that has a pair of 120mm fans on each side... design them so they could be assembled into a wall via interlocks on the sides, top and bottom of the case... one side air intake and other side of the wall being the exhaust... have the thing blow through.
er hmmmmmm
I placed an other number 23 000 about and 30 000
for 12 x 60gh/sec thingamiaggiemabobs
I don't feel like it was my smartest moment ever, maybe time to ask for a refund
I placed an other number 23 000 about and 30 000
for 12 x 60gh/sec thingamiaggiemabobs
I don't feel like it was my smartest moment ever, maybe time to ask for a refund
So far, the company has been professional, honest, had a good attitude about it.
How is "We will deliver in october, LOL, sorry, november, LOLZ, actually not in december, STFU you are a IDIOTS we deliver in february,oops, march, eeh, april, nah, end of may, probably mid june july-ishy" in any way professional or honest?
They have been perpetually lying in their prognoses and only once did they notify their
They had Josh come in here, completely ignoring actual important questions just to engage in several pissing contest with both the competition and trolls.
You are seriously deluded when it comes to the actual situation BFL customers are really in.
BFL has a lot more history than the couple of months you know them for.
1) So the update said pretty much what I was expecting. The software is almost done, we have changed the power profile and had to change the board design to accommodate which is almost done, we are shipping out the dev units, and doing all the little 100's of details that make for a properly engineered and tested product. No surprise here. In fact, encouraging as it gives insight into exactly where everything stands.
I think we are 2 months or less at this point.
Notice that this is not surprising exactly because they have been saying these kind of things since october.
Also, please read the latest BFL propaganda again.
They want to stress that the chips are absolutely fine, except that they use up more power than was designed. But that's still ok, according to BFL.
But it's not. If the ICs use up a lot more power than designed for than there is something bad with the chips as well.
You have to look for those details because if there is one thing that i've learned about the way BFL operates then its that this little "the chips are fine" will turn into "We'll have to redo most of the ICs" in a couple of weeks.
The problems with the board were also fixable 'with a little tuning' and they would have delivered their product a couple of weeks ago.
Now the story has progressed over a couple of communications from 'Just some minor power problems with the board, will be done in a few days' to 'we need new boards and have no real shipping date at the moment'.
So far, the company has been professional, honest, had a good attitude about it.
How is "We will deliver in october, LOL, sorry, november, LOLZ, actually not in december, STFU you are a IDIOTS we deliver in february,oops, march, eeh, april, nah, end of may, probably mid june july-ishy" in any way professional or honest?
They have been perpetually lying in their prognoses and only once did they notify their
They had Josh come in here, completely ignoring actual important questions just to engage in several pissing contest with both the competition and trolls.
You are seriously deluded when it comes to the actual situation BFL customers are really in.
BFL has a lot more history than the couple of months you know them for.
1) So the update said pretty much what I was expecting. The software is almost done, we have changed the power profile and had to change the board design to accommodate which is almost done, we are shipping out the dev units, and doing all the little 100's of details that make for a properly engineered and tested product. No surprise here. In fact, encouraging as it gives insight into exactly where everything stands.
I think we are 2 months or less at this point.
Your post trailed off there. Can you complete your last sentence? 2 months or less from what? Shipping orders placed in June of 2012? If those orders ship in June of 2013 would you expect an order placed today(April 16 2013) to be shipped this year? Please be verbose, I really am trying to understand the motivation to order at this point, particularly given the 500% increase in power consumption which makes the shipping date an absolutely vital factor in calculating profitability.
So far, the company has been professional, honest, had a good attitude about it.
How is "We will deliver in october, LOL, sorry, november, LOLZ, actually not in december, STFU you are a IDIOTS we deliver in february,oops, march, eeh, april, nah, end of may, probably mid june july-ishy" in any way professional or honest?
They have been perpetually lying in their prognoses and only once did they notify their
They had Josh come in here, completely ignoring actual important questions just to engage in several pissing contest with both the competition and trolls.
You are seriously deluded when it comes to the actual situation BFL customers are really in.
BFL has a lot more history than the couple of months you know them for.
1) So the update said pretty much what I was expecting. The software is almost done, we have changed the power profile and had to change the board design to accommodate which is almost done, we are shipping out the dev units, and doing all the little 100's of details that make for a properly engineered and tested product. No surprise here. In fact, encouraging as it gives insight into exactly where everything stands.
I think we are 2 months or less at this point.
15 April 2013 Update
Quote
Short update today, more to come in the next day or two, hopefully.
We've been working on getting the software and firmware nailed down. Things are mostly stabilized at this point and with our current boards (we do not have the redesigned boards in house yet), power usage exceeds the 1w/GH, unfortunately, but it's much better than anything out by 40 - 50%, at the wall. We are gearing up to start shipping out some dev boards and a few Jalapeno's most likely this week (at least a few dev boards) and then as more chips roll in we'll be shipping out the Jalapeno's. When the new boards land in KC, we'll start shipping Little Singles and Singles at that time. I don't currently have a time frame for those, but I should have something later this week in regards to that.
Obviously, the minirig can't fit 1.5 TH/s in a case the size of what we were planning, but we have some interesting solutions with regards to that. Expect and update on there as well, but I did want to let everyone know we have several solutions to solve the minirig issue and we are moving forward on that front.
I did want to quash any rumors that there was something wrong with the chips; there isn't. The chips themselves are fine (other than using more power than we expected), the delay is strictly due to having to re-engineer the power system on the boards (which requires a larger PCB redesign to a degree) and refine/streamline our processes for getting chips from silicon to mounted on boards. Things will be rolling along soon, albeit a bit slow at first, and then picking up speed as the whole process is optimized and finalized.
We've been working on getting the software and firmware nailed down. Things are mostly stabilized at this point and with our current boards (we do not have the redesigned boards in house yet), power usage exceeds the 1w/GH, unfortunately, but it's much better than anything out by 40 - 50%, at the wall. We are gearing up to start shipping out some dev boards and a few Jalapeno's most likely this week (at least a few dev boards) and then as more chips roll in we'll be shipping out the Jalapeno's. When the new boards land in KC, we'll start shipping Little Singles and Singles at that time. I don't currently have a time frame for those, but I should have something later this week in regards to that.
Obviously, the minirig can't fit 1.5 TH/s in a case the size of what we were planning, but we have some interesting solutions with regards to that. Expect and update on there as well, but I did want to let everyone know we have several solutions to solve the minirig issue and we are moving forward on that front.
I did want to quash any rumors that there was something wrong with the chips; there isn't. The chips themselves are fine (other than using more power than we expected), the delay is strictly due to having to re-engineer the power system on the boards (which requires a larger PCB redesign to a degree) and refine/streamline our processes for getting chips from silicon to mounted on boards. Things will be rolling along soon, albeit a bit slow at first, and then picking up speed as the whole process is optimized and finalized.
When chips use more power than designed things are very far from 'fine'..
I hope everyone understands that...
Bottom line is that your free to take a refund if your not happy to wait.
Since most people payed in BTC, asking for a refund now means they lose a lot of money.
Not only did their product not get delivered they get to deal with the risk of a weaker dollar.
Meanwhile BFL doesn't realy take a loss at all. They sponsored their carnival with the
So since all the risk is in the hands of the
BFL has effectively arrested their
So far, the company has been professional, honest, had a good attitude about it.
How is "We will deliver in october, LOL, sorry, november, LOLZ, actually not in december, STFU you are a IDIOTS we deliver in february,oops, march, eeh, april, nah, end of may, probably mid june july-ishy" in any way professional or honest?
They have been perpetually lying in their prognoses and only once did they notify their
They had Josh come in here, completely ignoring actual important questions just to engage in several pissing contest with both the competition and trolls.
You are seriously deluded when it comes to the actual situation BFL customers are really in.
BFL has a lot more history than the couple of months you know them for.
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