I think BFL deserves a bit more benefit of the doubt - page 2.

creativex

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Quote from: Operatr on April 16, 2013, 06:32:15 AM

15 April 2013 Update

Quote

Short update today, more to come in the next day or two, hopefully.

We've been working on getting the software and firmware nailed down. Things are mostly stabilized at this point and with our current boards (we do not have the redesigned boards in house yet), power usage exceeds the 1w/GH, unfortunately, but it's much better than anything out by 40 - 50%, at the wall. We are gearing up to start shipping out some dev boards and a few Jalapeno's most likely this week (at least a few dev boards) and then as more chips roll in we'll be shipping out the Jalapeno's. When the new boards land in KC, we'll start shipping Little Singles and Singles at that time. I don't currently have a time frame for those, but I should have something later this week in regards to that.

Obviously, the minirig can't fit 1.5 TH/s in a case the size of what we were planning, but we have some interesting solutions with regards to that. Expect and update on there as well, but I did want to let everyone know we have several solutions to solve the minirig issue and we are moving forward on that front.

I did want to quash any rumors that there was something wrong with the chips; there isn't. The chips themselves are fine (other than using more power than we expected), the delay is strictly due to having to re-engineer the power system on the boards (which requires a larger PCB redesign to a degree) and refine/streamline our processes for getting chips from silicon to mounted on boards. Things will be rolling along soon, albeit a bit slow at first, and then picking up speed as the whole process is optimized and finalized.

Absolutely brutal.

They're still working out firmware issues and rebuilding their PCBs while Avalon batch 2 customers have just been notified to send in their FPGA trade-ins. BFL will not beat Avalon batch 2 for mass shipping and it's entirely possible Avalon batch 3 will ship before BFL ships much of anything. This is another 600+ Avalon units(40+Th), ASICMiner is accelerating it's hash rate deployment on the 22nd of April and gearing up for direct sales of hardware. The worst news of all is that BFL's power consumption looks like it will be around 500% higher than originally estimated(simulated). This means they'll not have the huge lifespan earnings advantage they were originally projected to have.

The most common product ordered by a country mile is the single SC and there's no guidance on when that will ship...six months after it's first shipping date. Orders placed today, may or may not be delivered in 2013, but it's pretty clear they won't be worth much when received by investors.

Take your lumps and get out, these guys do not know what they're doing.

Operatr

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15 April 2013 Update

Quote

Short update today, more to come in the next day or two, hopefully.

We've been working on getting the software and firmware nailed down. Things are mostly stabilized at this point and with our current boards (we do not have the redesigned boards in house yet), power usage exceeds the 1w/GH, unfortunately, but it's much better than anything out by 40 - 50%, at the wall. We are gearing up to start shipping out some dev boards and a few Jalapeno's most likely this week (at least a few dev boards) and then as more chips roll in we'll be shipping out the Jalapeno's. When the new boards land in KC, we'll start shipping Little Singles and Singles at that time. I don't currently have a time frame for those, but I should have something later this week in regards to that.

Obviously, the minirig can't fit 1.5 TH/s in a case the size of what we were planning, but we have some interesting solutions with regards to that. Expect and update on there as well, but I did want to let everyone know we have several solutions to solve the minirig issue and we are moving forward on that front.

I did want to quash any rumors that there was something wrong with the chips; there isn't. The chips themselves are fine (other than using more power than we expected), the delay is strictly due to having to re-engineer the power system on the boards (which requires a larger PCB redesign to a degree) and refine/streamline our processes for getting chips from silicon to mounted on boards. Things will be rolling along soon, albeit a bit slow at first, and then picking up speed as the whole process is optimized and finalized.

firefop

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Quote from: shivansps on April 15, 2013, 12:27:16 AM

Lets be a little fair here, Avalon shipped 300 units in 3 months, second batch starting shipping today (im correct?), lets say, if the total numbers of Avalons is 900 by end of May and we consider 1/4 of what BFL claims on production rate, BFL will mach the number of Avalon units in a week and half if they start shipping in June....

Avalon shipped 300 units in 3 months, you cant order because they are always sold out, they are expensive, what are you guys expecting the people to do? Even if you order a 4th batch Avalon, you probably dont going to get it in a long time too.

Thats why people order BFL units and pray.

As for who win and who losse, like in any bussiness, there are winners and lossers, who preorder a Avalon 1st batch won, who preordered BFL lose, thats the end of story, you just cant start complaining because you taked your chances with BFL and lose, its getting tiredsome of hearing people compaining of BFL, nobody forced you to preorder BFL, ask a refund and do something else, if not its because you know you dont have other choice.

And there is not always refund choices when a bussiness goes wrong people.

Well that and based on the accounts of the manufacturing equipment they've got... they should be able to produce hundreds of units a day once they have a production model nailed down.

I believe the game has changed however... specifically - with the old power/hash numbers I figured that the jalapeno was going to be the dog of the line... and now it looks like that might the best seller, and people make end up purchasing hundreds of them rather than dealing with the larger models. That could be really good for bfl and extremely annoying for farm owners. But probably good for bitcoin in general.

desired_username

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Quote from: jhansen858 on April 15, 2013, 12:34:44 AM

Quote from: repentance on April 15, 2013, 12:18:28 AM

We already know that the product isn't going to perform as advertised, but lack of competition means that people will forgive that. Nobody else is mass producing ASICs at this point. BFL may have to lift their game when other players enter the ASIC market but until that happens they have a virtual monopoly on ASIC sales.

As with everything else Bitcoin, it's not a great idea to spend more on ASICs than you're willing to lose.

I agree with this.

I get the feeling a few people overextended them selves a bit on this. A very logical reaction ensues. Feelings of intense stress and severe buyers remorse.

Guys, relax, everything is going to be OK. Things are never as bad or as good as what they seem. The universe is not fucked. Its just a matter of perspective. I know, you cant wait to get your magical money printing machine from the future, that prints money....but its a bit of a complex process to make magical money printing machines from the future. In the mean time, maybe get out side, walk your dog, de-stress, breathe.

Either way, its going to work it self out soon.

At least we have some sensible people as well.

jhansen858

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Quote from: repentance on April 15, 2013, 12:18:28 AM

We already know that the product isn't going to perform as advertised, but lack of competition means that people will forgive that. Nobody else is mass producing ASICs at this point. BFL may have to lift their game when other players enter the ASIC market but until that happens they have a virtual monopoly on ASIC sales.

As with everything else Bitcoin, it's not a great idea to spend more on ASICs than you're willing to lose.

I agree with this.

I get the feeling a few people overextended them selves a bit on this. A very logical reaction ensues. Feelings of intense stress and severe buyers remorse.

Guys, relax, everything is going to be OK. Things are never as bad or as good as what they seem. The universe is not fucked. Its just a matter of perspective. I know, you cant wait to get your magical money printing machine from the future, that prints money....but its a bit of a complex process to make magical money printing machines from the future. In the mean time, maybe get out side, walk your dog, de-stress, breathe.

Either way, its going to work it self out soon.

shivansps

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Lets be a little fair here, Avalon shipped 300 units in 3 months, second batch starting shipping today (im correct?), lets say, if the total numbers of Avalons is 900 by end of May and we consider 1/4 of what BFL claims on production rate, BFL will mach the number of Avalon units in a week and half if they start shipping in June....

Avalon shipped 300 units in 3 months, you cant order because they are always sold out, they are expensive, what are you guys expecting the people to do? Even if you order a 4th batch Avalon, you probably dont going to get it in a long time too.

Thats why people order BFL units and pray.

As for who win and who losse, like in any bussiness, there are winners and lossers, who preorder a Avalon 1st batch won, who preordered BFL lose, thats the end of story, you just cant start complaining because you taked your chances with BFL and lose, its getting tiredsome of hearing people compaining of BFL, nobody forced you to preorder BFL, ask a refund and do something else, if not its because you know you dont have other choice.

And there is not always refund choices when a bussiness goes wrong people.

repentance

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Quote from: jhansen858 on April 15, 2013, 12:08:57 AM

I guess i'm just not that worried about the actual timeline as long as the product preforms as advertised.

1) I originally put $1500 in to two 5970's back when the difficulty was under 500k.
2) I managed to mine enough coins back then to basically pay for my new rig.

From my perspective, the risk is about $1500 - $3000 range. I would be stupid not to take it. Even if they don't deliver, I'm only out $3000 of actual money at this point. Painful, but not life ending.

We already know that the product isn't going to perform as advertised, but lack of competition means that people will forgive that. Nobody else is mass producing ASICs at this point. BFL may have to lift their game when other players enter the ASIC market but until that happens they have a virtual monopoly on ASIC sales.

As with everything else Bitcoin, it's not a great idea to spend more on ASICs than you're willing to lose.

jhansen858

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Quote from: repentance on April 14, 2013, 11:42:46 PM

If you've only been dealing with them for three months then you ordered in January. At this point, no-one has any idea when people who ordered BFL ASICs this year might receive them. The chips they have in stock right now won't fill very many orders at all and there's been no mention of what is happening with the bulk order of 63,000 chips (from which the majority of existing pre-orders would have been filled).

So yes, they might be able to deliver some sub-spec units to June/July orders soon but there's no indication at this time when the revised design will be completed and when those who ordered after July can expect to receive their units. It's not even clear whether the second 6 wafers have been completed or whether BFL is just going to use the wafers they have on hand to fill whatever they can with lower specs and everyone else will have to wait for the redesign.

I guess i'm just not that worried about the actual timeline as long as the product preforms as advertised.

1) I originally put $1500 in to two 5970's back when the difficulty was under 500k.
2) I managed to mine enough coins back then to basically pay for my new rig.

From my perspective, the risk is about $1500 - $3000 range. I would be stupid not to take it. Even if they don't deliver, I'm only out $3000 of actual money at this point. Painful, but not life ending.

repentance

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Quote from: jhansen858 on April 12, 2013, 12:57:17 AM

So in one hand I have everyone who probably has pre-orders telling everyone else to cancel and the other hand I have what seems to be from all accounts a mostly finished product that is close to shipping.

Yea, I believe that things have been over promised, However, I'm not sure if everyone is really this mad about it, or just trying to convince everyone else to cancel so they can get their rig first. It honestly seems like everyone is over reacting a bit to me.

If you've only been dealing with them for three months then you ordered in January. At this point, no-one has any idea when people who ordered BFL ASICs this year might receive them. The chips they have in stock right now won't fill very many orders at all and there's been no mention of what is happening with the bulk order of 63,000 chips (from which the majority of existing pre-orders would have been filled).

So yes, they might be able to deliver some sub-spec units to June/July orders soon but there's no indication at this time when the revised design will be completed and when those who ordered after July can expect to receive their units. It's not even clear whether the second 6 wafers have been completed or whether BFL is just going to use the wafers they have on hand to fill whatever they can with lower specs and everyone else will have to wait for the redesign.

jhansen858

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Quote from: firefop on April 14, 2013, 12:39:57 PM

OP, I think you've got it pretty much right on... the company is legit, but completely inexperienced in actually delivering this type of product.

When I ordered my fpgas from BFL I was told it would be 2 months to have them delivered... they arrived 3 weeks early. When I placed my pre-orders for upgrades... I was told "expect a shipping date before march 2013"

From my perspective, I can call them anytime I want and have someone speak to me. I could if I wanted to request and get a refund... and from my perspective they're 14 days behind on shipping. Sure I was excited when they mentioned a ship day in october... but my plans were all done based on what the sales rep told me at the time of the order. So yes, I'm slightly annoyed that avalon shipped first, but I'm honestly expecting BFL to start delivering product any day now.

Even if the company is struggling on the tech side of things, the fact that they've adjusted numbers on hash rate, price and power consumption indicates to me that they're in the process of solving these issues. Expect a product soon. Anyone who says that "BFL Lied" is basing that off a misguided sense of entitlement rather than facts. Things happen when bringing a product to market, I sure some things could have been explained in a more timely manner... but so far they've had good enough reasons for the delays. Switching the packaging for example is a multi month delay at least, usually around 6 months in my experience.

I believe they'll get it sorted and a product shipped soon.

Thank you! I was starting to feel like Liam Neeson in The Grey.

jhansen858

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Quote from: creativex on April 14, 2013, 05:43:26 PM

The argument that requesting a refund solves everything is a non-starter. Orders placed and paid in BTC were converted to fiat at that time. Some of these orders were placed when the exchange rate was $6. An order placed in June of 2012 for a single sc would have been 216ish BTC, while a refund of that same order processed this very second would return 13.4BTC. That's a pretty unappealing proposition, and when you add to that the total lack of competition in the marketplace and BFL's vaporware price increase, most will simply choose to keep their place in line for it's perceived "value".

BFL could have just as easily said "Sorry we only accept cash" Then you would have had to cash it out in order to send it to them. It is doubtful that their suppliers or employees are willing to accept 100% bitcoin, so they were basically doing you a favor and saving a small amount of hassle from having to cash the btc out your self, then wire them the money at the bank. I know that process took me several days. So, I believe that actually, you really cant make the case the you should receive the same about of BTC back that you sent. Currently it is the convention of everyone to price things in Dollars/EURO etc and then do the conversion to BTC for the purpose of the sale. Undoubtedly they cashed the BTC out at the time it was sent and converted it to dollars. Logically, they really can only be expected to give dollars or the then current BTC in refunds.

Who knows, maybe you will get lucky and the price will crash back to $3 each. Then you can get your coins back at a more favorable rate.

John Self

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Quote from: desired_username on April 14, 2013, 04:49:03 PM

I cannot understand people who are angry with BFL without even having an order with them.

Because it damages the bitcoin community, leads to less orders for the legitimate mining companies and less miners online, more bad press and more people turned off making a contribution to bitcoin. Even if they deliver eventually, people like you have suffered a tremendous opportunity cost- you could have bought a mining rig or real ASIC and made a contribution to the community and filled your wallets, if you aren't angry you either have a Buddhist temperament- which is admirable- or you aren't thinking clearly about the cost to you- which is probable.

Difficult as it may be for you to understand, some such people do things outside their immediate self interest for moral reasons. I am immensely grateful to these "angry" people with "dull" lives, because if it wasn't for their extensive forum posts I would have ordered some of this vapourware when I first got interested in bitcoin a month ago- I had even begun the order process. Now, thanks to them- I have shares in an avalon with a fellow forum member new to bitcoin, it is shipping out soon and I am proud to have invested in a fantastic monetary concept.

creativex

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Quote from: desired_username on April 14, 2013, 04:49:03 PM

I'm with the OP.

I've been waiting since 09/12... I could have asked my money back, but decided to wait this out.

Can you not at the very least see a conspicuous absence of bias from those that do have an order(s) with BFL? If you placed an order with BFL in June of 2012 and were assured of 1Gh/1watt and an October 2012 shipping date then you should be angry with BFL. You may or may not have chosen to place an order with Avalon Q4 2012 based on BFL's bogus projections. Those that placed orders with BFL in June of 2012 may have had their resources tied up on products that were consistently just around the corner...according to BFL. Because of this deceitful tactic some of those investors would have been much further ahead by cancelling their BFL orders long ago, but this is hindsight and wasn't clear then, precisely because of BFL's tactic of constantly portraying their SC product line as being "in the final stages of development".

The argument that requesting a refund solves everything is a non-starter. Orders placed and paid in BTC were converted to fiat at that time. Some of these orders were placed when the exchange rate was $6. An order placed in June of 2012 for a single sc would have been 216ish BTC, while a refund of that same order processed this very second would return 13.4BTC. That's a pretty unappealing proposition, and when you add to that the total lack of competition in the marketplace and BFL's vaporware price increase, most will simply choose to keep their place in line for it's perceived "value".

desired_username

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I'm with the OP.

I've been waiting since 09/12... I could have asked my money back, but decided to wait this out.

I cannot understand people who are angry with BFL without even having an order with them.

Is your life so dull that you get upset about things like this? ;-)

The choice is easy:

If you ordered but uncomfortable with the long wait - then ask for a refund.

fnordfnordfnord

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Quote

So far, the company has been professional, honest, had a good attitude about it.

0/10 Either the troll force is strong with you, or you've got some sort of cognitive impairment. BFL Josh has been a shit-talking fool since day one. Even, no, especially before Avalon shipped, he was consistently trolling these forums and elsewhere. Professional, no. Not in the least. Not even back when there was a chance they could succeed.

BFL got in over their head, which might have been forgivable except for the following:

they doubled-down and used their pre-order money to buy ads to get more pre-order money with which they hoped to try and dig themselves out.
They allowed their troll to roam these parts and... troll, to no useful end.

creativex

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Quote from: firefop on April 14, 2013, 12:39:57 PM

OP, I think you've got it pretty much right on... the company is legit, but completely inexperienced in actually delivering this type of product.

Quote

Anyone who says that "BFL Lied" is basing that off a misguided sense of entitlement rather than facts.

You do realize that they(BFL) claimed to be experts in exactly this field correct? Further that their COO has on occasions too numerous to count attempted to portray BFL's competitors as amateurs and themeselves(BFL) as the real pros in this field. This is fact, and can be easily verified by anybody by simply searching BFL's faq and/or Inaba/BFL_Josh's posts. Given this fact how do you reconcile your two above quoted statements?

Quote

When I ordered my fpgas from BFL I was told it would be 2 months to have them delivered... they arrived 3 weeks early. When I placed my pre-orders for upgrades... I was told "expect a shipping date before march 2013"

From my perspective, I can call them anytime I want and have someone speak to me. I could if I wanted to request and get a refund... and from my perspective they're 14 days behind on shipping. Sure I was excited when they mentioned a ship day in october... but my plans were all done based on what the sales rep told me at the time of the order. So yes, I'm slightly annoyed that avalon shipped first, but I'm honestly expecting BFL to start delivering product any day now.

If BFL does begin shipping a product any day now, it will not be the product ordered, or the product people ordered going all the way back to June of 2012, it will be a vastly inferior product, with many times the power consumption footprint.

Quote

Even if the company is struggling on the tech side of things, the fact that they've adjusted numbers on hash rate, price and power consumption indicates to me that they're in the process of solving these issues. Expect a product soon. Anyone who says that "BFL Lied" is basing that off a misguided sense of entitlement rather than facts. Things happen when bringing a product to market, I sure some things could have been explained in a more timely manner... but so far they've had good enough reasons for the delays. Switching the packaging for example is a multi month delay at least, usually around 6 months in my experience.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance

firefop

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Quote from: Syke on April 12, 2013, 12:43:37 AM

Quote from: jhansen858 on April 11, 2013, 11:17:38 PM

Hrm interesting. I had only just first heard about them about 4 or 5 months ago. I lurked on the forums and what not for a few months and did my research. Avalon's offer is way more expensive and seems to be less well designed. ASICMiner, I really don't know much about them. I know you can buy mining shares on their system, and I spend an hour or two trying to figure out how it works but I really couldn't. The BFL solution looks the cleanest, and most high end. If they were selling on being first to market thats news to me. I had not seen anything that promised that anywhere. Maybe I'm just late in the game.

Then you don't understand the full scope of how deep their lies go. In mid Oct 2012, they were saying "Honest abe, we're shipping in October. We're world leaders in microprocessor design!" Now it's mid Apr 2013 and nothing has changed. Oct shipping was a lie. Nov shipping was a lie. Dec shipping was a lie. Jan shipping was a lie. Feb shipping was a lie. Mar shipping was a lie. Apr shipping is their latest lie.

OP, I think you've got it pretty much right on... the company is legit, but completely inexperienced in actually delivering this type of product.

When I ordered my fpgas from BFL I was told it would be 2 months to have them delivered... they arrived 3 weeks early. When I placed my pre-orders for upgrades... I was told "expect a shipping date before march 2013"

From my perspective, I can call them anytime I want and have someone speak to me. I could if I wanted to request and get a refund... and from my perspective they're 14 days behind on shipping. Sure I was excited when they mentioned a ship day in october... but my plans were all done based on what the sales rep told me at the time of the order. So yes, I'm slightly annoyed that avalon shipped first, but I'm honestly expecting BFL to start delivering product any day now.

Even if the company is struggling on the tech side of things, the fact that they've adjusted numbers on hash rate, price and power consumption indicates to me that they're in the process of solving these issues. Expect a product soon. Anyone who says that "BFL Lied" is basing that off a misguided sense of entitlement rather than facts. Things happen when bringing a product to market, I sure some things could have been explained in a more timely manner... but so far they've had good enough reasons for the delays. Switching the packaging for example is a multi month delay at least, usually around 6 months in my experience.

I believe they'll get it sorted and a product shipped soon.

Operatr

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So sick of this Embarrassed

meowmeowbrowncow

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Quote from: k9quaint on April 13, 2013, 02:05:41 PM

... BFL ... charlatans ...

Done.

ebildude123

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Meh, delays though, too long.
They better ship soon Shocked

Topic: I think BFL deserves a bit more benefit of the doubt - page 2. (Read 4578 times)