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Topic: Ideas for more efficient distribution of money? - page 5. (Read 13253 times)

legendary
Activity: 3458
Merit: 1280
English ⬄ Russian Translation Services
So you recognize that it is not confidence in money (or lack thereof) which makes the government go bankrupt, but rather the loss of confidence in the government itself which makes its currency irrelevant, right?

Agreed, but isn't that distinction as useful as splitting hairs on a frog's back.

It just proves that the problem of "a debt based fiat system" is not a problem within and of itself. And the most important inference from this is that you can't call such a currency system a Ponzi scheme, for otherwise it would imply denying confidence in the government as being a real asset behind the currency. Yes, it could burst but it still would be supported at some level by something (i.e. confidence) which is not speculative in nature (see the real estate bubble example)...
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1000
A While ago this idea was nicknamed GaussCoin


 It has some merits in that that the velocity of distribution is consistent with the  market distribution mechanism and consistent with the laws of diffusion of innovation, once about 2/3ds of total adoption is complete you will have relative adoption and relative distribution.

Bitcoins value at the moment is not a reflection of the economy size but a reflection of the benefits of storing fungible and transferable wealth in a finite medium that is secured and distributed on a P2P network, that demand will naturally be subject to human preference and is reflected as volatility.

One improvement I could think to achieve the goal would be to adjust but build in the rate of supply to reflect (a Logistic Function) and not the current step function to a normal distribution model, and have new coins mined on a Gaussian Curve to better correlate supply with growth, for added supply and greater and faster user adoption all the while more accurately meeting demand.
legendary
Activity: 3066
Merit: 1147
The revolution will be monetized!
The idea of bitcoin distribution is not to hand them out as broadly as possible. It is a system to reward people who run their computers to help secure and operate the network. It is not a free lunch program. Miners do work and are paid for it.

1. Distribution of coin rewards is halving every 4 years, thus diminishing towards 0. Half of all coins went to adopters in first 4 years.

2. ASICs means PC owners can't leverage their existing assets. Thus not a widely distribution coin.

3. PC mining need not be a free lunch, could also secure the network.

1. True. Those who act first are more greatly rewarded. Welcome to economics.
In the future fees will replace block rewards. They will also go to those who work hardest and smartest.   

2. True. They must buy ASICs. Just as the last generation of miners needed to buy GPU's and before that, powerful CPUs. Miners must spend money on equipment and electricity. You can't pan for gold anymore either, now you must invest in expensive equipment.

3. PC mining was fine for protecting a market cap in the millions, but it is far to weak for the billions we are at now. This scaling acts against the profitability of a 51% attack.

Bitcoin is market driven. It rewards hard work, capital investment and greed, but nothing else.

P.S. I'm glad you are a contrarian. We need more than one uni-brain here.  Wink
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
It is not easy to see yourself, but your ignore button has reached its maximum color Sad

You really think I give a flying f$ck about reputation?

Everything is technology now. Reputation can be fabricated out of thin air (or purchased).

I would rather be correct on the technological outcome than be popular. The former means I will be able to buy (as slaves) all of the people who ignored me if I wanted to. You do know the Bible condones slavery as necessary form of rehabilitation of those who were not wise.

I saw it hours ago:

The prior two posts made me smile in spite of my 62+ ignores. At least my nose isn't brown.  Grin

The ignore browning is the most inane, asinine feature of this otherwise excellent forum design. So with 10,000 members, one gets 62, i.e. 0.5% ignore rate then that is supposed to be meaninful? How about showing our non-ignore rate instead, i.e. 99.5%.

Lack of browning should logically be embarrassing. It can be interpreted to mean one hasn't stuck their neck out at all. Played it ultra-safe, not written enough controversial statements to justify the wrath of the groupthink.

Ultra-safe is not how you win big in this life. No risk, no cookies.

The prior two posts made me smile in spite of my 62+ ignores. At least my nose isn't brown.  Grin

The ignore browning is the most inane, asinine feature of this otherwise excellent forum design. So with 10,000 members, one gets 62, i.e. 0.5% ignore rate then that is supposed to be meaninful? How about showing our non-ignore rate instead, i.e. 99.5%.

Lack of browning should logically be embarrassing. It can be interpreted to mean one hasn't stuck their neck out at all. Played it ultra-safe, not written enough controversial statements to justify the wrath of the groupthink.

Ultra-safe is not how you win big in this life. No risk, no cookies.


Typically, people ignore you not for sticking your neck out, but for being a complete douchebag about it. Also, it's rather difficult to get 62 people to think you are so not worth their time, that they actually take the time to click the "Ignore" button instead of simply scrolling past your post.

Let's remember who was the first douchebag.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.3525396

Quote from: Rassah
My apologies, I did not realize that you were a crazy person. Cary on.

Butt hurt Bitards press ignore when they want to continue their Ponzi delusion.

That proves what? That they are butt hurt. Nothing more.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
They can run by actually running upon receiving salary to the bread store at the corner to dump their currency before it depreciates. I had a photo of them doing exactly that in Wiemar Germany.

Wherever they ran, they paid and were paid with money. They didn't quit their jobs, so we have to admit they didn't lose confidence, right?

They may have no other job offer.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
Do you mean seigniorage or what? I still don't get where you're going. If the loss of confidence you refer to is caused by diminishing purchasing power due to the currency inflation (but could it be caused by anything else?) then there wouldn't be such loss among police, tax collectors and other civil service employees for rather obvious reasons...
Hyperinflation is never caused by inflation. It is caused by the government being wrecked by revolution and/or Communism and the people losing all confidence in the government.

In Zimbabwe, the blacks revolted against the white land owners. That caused a crisis of confidence.

So you recognize that it is not confidence in money (or lack thereof) which makes the government go bankrupt, but rather the loss of confidence in the government itself which makes its currency irrelevant, right?

Agreed, but isn't that distinction as useful as splitting hairs on a frog's back.
legendary
Activity: 3458
Merit: 1280
English ⬄ Russian Translation Services
Do you mean seigniorage or what? I still don't get where you're going. If the loss of confidence you refer to is caused by diminishing purchasing power due to the currency inflation (but could it be caused by anything else?) then there wouldn't be such loss among police, tax collectors and other civil service employees for rather obvious reasons...
Hyperinflation is never caused by inflation. It is caused by the government being wrecked by revolution and/or Communism and the people losing all confidence in the government.

In Zimbabwe, the blacks revolted against the white land owners. That caused a crisis of confidence.

So you recognize that it is not confidence in money (or lack thereof) which makes the government go bankrupt, but rather the loss of confidence in the government itself which makes its currency irrelevant, right?
npl
full member
Activity: 158
Merit: 100
you lot are veering off topic and not acknowledging the brilliance of my response to the OP's question  Smiley

The idea of bitcoin distribution is not to hand them out as broadly as possible. It is a system to reward people who run their computers to help secure and operate the network. It is not a free lunch program. Miners do work and are paid for it.

My proposal does not negate miner profit, it calls to reconfigure the way mining inputs are expended.
legendary
Activity: 3458
Merit: 1280
English ⬄ Russian Translation Services
They can run by actually running upon receiving salary to the bread store at the corner to dump their currency before it depreciates. I had a photo of them doing exactly that in Wiemar Germany.

Wherever they ran, they paid and were paid with money. They didn't quit their jobs, so we have to admit they didn't lose confidence, right?

Internet is full of such photos, even with people using packs of banknotes as fuel...
donator
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1036
It is not easy to see yourself, but your ignore button has reached its maximum color Sad
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
Not if buying the Bitcoin requires impoverishing oneself and society into hyperinflation.

You can't have this type of radical transfer of wealth to speculators. Society will never allow it.

[snip]

How do you supposee that society will not allow that?

Wow you really doubt the power of the government. I guess you forget who has the bigger guns.

You are not anonymous in Bitcoin. They can attack with the tax agencies without bringing out the big guns. The big guns are the last resort. As the final resort, nuclear winter and the underground shelters the elite have built.

Absolutely no way the elite will hand over the power over the creation of money. They will co-opt it peacefully or by as much violence as it requires.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Warburg

Quote
Warburg was a member of the Council on Foreign Relations. He gained some notice in a February 17, 1950, appearance before the U.S. Senate Committee on Foreign Relations in which he said, "We shall have world government, whether or not we like it. The question is only whether world government will be achieved by consent or by conquest."
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
Facing of widespread dumping of the currency, hyperinflates to continue to fund its mercenaries, ahem I mean police, tax collectors, and other "useful" bureaucrats. It is a futile attempt to maintain control over the loss of confidence.

Do you mean seigniorage or what? I still don't get where you're going. If the loss of confidence you refer to is caused by diminishing purchasing power due to the currency inflation (but could it be caused by anything else?) then there wouldn't be such loss among police, tax collectors and other civil service employees for rather obvious reasons...

Hyperinflation is never caused by inflation. It is caused by the government being wrecked by revolution and/or Communism and the people losing all confidence in the government.

In Zimbabwe, the blacks revolted against the white land owners. That caused a crisis of confidence.

Weimar Germany didn't plunge into anarchy, neither did Yugoslavia nor Zimbabwe for the same reasons...

 Huh You must have a different definition of anarchy than I do.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
On these 2 points  at least I agree with AnonyMint.  Will they want to squash it? Will they be able to?  Will they find a way to use it or live with it?  Nobody has that answer.

Government pays salary to its employees. They can run from the currency only if they leave civil service. If they do leave, there is no public staff, then there is no government, no state, right? The confidence being referred to is not confidence in the money as such but rather it is confidence in the state and its government...

They can run by actually running upon receiving salary to the bread store at the corner to dump their currency before it depreciates. I had a photo of them doing exactly that in Wiemar Germany.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
The idea of bitcoin distribution is not to hand them out as broadly as possible. It is a system to reward people who run their computers to help secure and operate the network. It is not a free lunch program. Miners do work and are paid for it.

1. Distribution of coin rewards is halving every 4 years, thus diminishing towards 0. Half of all coins went to adopters in first 4 years.

2. ASICs means PC owners can't leverage their existing assets. Thus not a widely distribution coin.

3. PC mining need not be a free lunch, could also secure the network.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
Where can I throw a post that was deleted from another thread.


The Robo ATM is going to require a palm scan and a face scan with government-issued photo id.


They have a RoboCoin ATM in Vancouver and my friends and I have used it many times.  It *only* requires a palm scan and this is just for Canadian AML/KYC compliance.  You do not have to give the machine any other information.  It does not scan your licence, require your name, and you could wear a paper bag over your head and still buy coins, if you were so inclined.  In fact, I bet you could buy a cadaver's hand from a crooked mortician and use that!  Seriously, it is pretty low key and relaxed.  

Are you serious?

It will not remain so casual. All small things look great, and as they become more widespread society expects certain things.

I listened to the interview with the principle of that company and he said the design requires all those 3 I mentioned to comply with KYC laws.

The operators of each machine decide, based on guidance from the company. So it is possible that operator is being more lax, but the government can clamp down at any time. The government would be wise to wait until the Robo ATMs are widespread and depended upon, before clamping down and requiring the full capabilities of the design.

http://www.activistpost.com/2013/11/social-logins-for-government-services.html




This is the second time I've caught Evoorhees in a logic fail.

Intrinsic, useful, or quasi-universal, it makes no difference what we call it. Fact is that gold is rare, can't be replicated, Bitcoin can't have those assurances. A currency can't be rare, otherwise it can't be distributed and behave as a currency.

The only reason that Bitcoin can ever have quasi-universal acceptance (valuation) is if it can become a currency, and it can't because it is being valued for a delusion about it being rare with a companion delusion about it being (or becoming) a currency which is an antithesis of the first delusion.

The usefulness of Bitcoin as a cheaper and less regulated money transfer is very ephemeral. The Spiraling Transaction Fees design of Bitcoin will kill the cheapness over time, as well the government regulation is coming and the spy agencies are recording all your transfers and identities and taxman cometh later to destroy the delusion ex post facto with nice penalties and treble rates.

You were a terrorist trying to move your money outside of the country or to another person avoiding the $600 1099 reporting requirement?! How dare you. Show your paperwork. Ah we find your paperwork is lacking. Confiscated. Done.


Whether or not the pyramid or ponzi scheme terms are misused by pedantic definitions does not provide an argument against bitcoin being a * scheme. It is a "bitcoin scheme" which closely resembles a pyramid scheme but has a few twists.

28%. Wow we are making headway in the consciousness of the audience.

The key characteristics of anything that resembles a ponzi or pyramid scheme are:

1. No intrinsic value, it is all a willful delusion of the participants.

2. Viral adoption as deluded participants scurry to induce greater fools by word-of-mouth.


Physical gold investment most certainly has an intrinsic value and you will always have that rarity and tangible value (that you can hold in your hand) and thus it can't go to 0. Bitcoins are not rare, because...





All of those features are very important and we discussed their implementation in the Mini-block chain thread.
legendary
Activity: 3458
Merit: 1280
English ⬄ Russian Translation Services
Facing of widespread dumping of the currency, hyperinflates to continue to fund its mercenaries, ahem I mean police, tax collectors, and other "useful" bureaucrats. It is a futile attempt to maintain control over the loss of confidence.

Do you mean seigniorage or what? I still don't get where you're going. If the loss of confidence you refer to is caused by diminishing purchasing power due to the currency inflation (but could it be caused by anything else?) then there wouldn't be such loss among police, tax collectors and other civil service employees for rather obvious reasons...

Weimar Germany didn't plunge into anarchy, neither did Yugoslavia nor Zimbabwe for the same reasons...
legendary
Activity: 3458
Merit: 1280
English ⬄ Russian Translation Services
On these 2 points  at least I agree with AnonyMint.  Will they want to squash it? Will they be able to?  Will they find a way to use it or live with it?  Nobody has that answer.

Government pays salary to its employees. They can run from the currency only if they leave civil service. If they do leave, there is no public staff, then there is no government, no state, right? The confidence being referred to is not confidence in the money as such but rather it is confidence in the state and its government...
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
Incorrect. The government can't enforce taxes if the people and the bond investors are running from the currency, because the government can't pay the police, tax collectors, etc.. The government hyperinflates attempting to do so.

I didn't quite get what you meant by "the government hyperinflates attempting to do so". To do what?

Facing widespread dumping of the currency, hyperinflates to continue to fund its mercenaries, ahem I mean police, tax collectors, and other "useful" bureaucrats. It is a futile attempt to maintain control over the loss of confidence.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
The serious players know damn well they won't have anything lasting if they don't play ball with the governments.

Quote
Destroying decentralization is not honest, it is selling out. And it is exactly what I expect them to do. A ponzi failure could possibly be a cover for making the transition to government control. It may be disguised as "proof-of-stake".

To what extent have you tried to analyse your own biases about governments? The usual short summary among Libertarians on this forum seems to be: "they're basically evil and should be kept to a bare minimum". Ditto Anarchists and Voluntarists. Even the Zeitgeist people don't seem too keen on allowing mere humans to be in charge of anything. However, the incentives that apply to governments at the individual and group level seem to be the same as the ones applying to everyone else:

-Some hunger for power and/or comfort, and various subjective needs. Money seems to be a great enabler for many things, regardless of employment sector.
-Intellectual energy conservation, and the resulting dogmatism, principles, and belief systems. Mental plasticity burns a shit-load of energy. Once a person or group "figures out how the world works", they face a decision: keep burning energy by adjusting that model whenever pressure is applied, or conserve energy by accepting it as good enough?

Now, unless you use a fundamentally different model of person for government employees versus non-govt people, why should the game theory be any different? Granted, incumbent power structures tend to have various monopoly resources at their disposal, such as a giant police force or a system of laws, but I see the potential threats as unconvincing.

Could you explain the reasoning (or lack of reasoning) that an evil government would follow by co-opting or seeking to destroy Bitcoin?

Competition and greed are not the problem, rather it is the power vacuum that enables centralizing power. The government bureaucrat doesn't know how to compete in a granular market.

Governments, cartels, and monopolies exist because there is a power vacuum that can't be dominated by more granular competition. (Will write another time about why granular yields better fitness and less waste)

Those vested interests will always squash or co-opt any decentralization (movement or technology) which threatens to make granular competition dominant.

The World Without Web would have occurred if key scientists at DARPA had not "lied through their teeth". The vested interests have fought back on many fronts, e.g. outlined in revelations from Snowden.

But they are still losing the war overall, as every time they shut something down, the hackers make it stronger. Thus I think they are going to lose the electronic currency war, but it is possible there will be two: the Bitcoin-morphed government currency and a hackers' currency. Most people use the government sites, e.g. Facebook, Google, etc.. The hackers have decentralized hangouts, e.g. Git, Mercurial.

I believe the hacker culture will spread and it is taking over the future economy. So steady growth of the hacker coin would be fine with me.
legendary
Activity: 3458
Merit: 1280
English ⬄ Russian Translation Services
In short, fiat hinges on confidence. This is why the government will always squash any competition which would threaten confidence.

I never claimed anything to the contrary...
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