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Topic: Ideas for more efficient distribution of money? - page 6. (Read 13269 times)

legendary
Activity: 3514
Merit: 1280
English ⬄ Russian Translation Services
Incorrect. The government can't enforce taxes if the people and the bond investors are running from the currency, because the government can't pay the police, tax collectors, etc.. The government hyperinflates attempting to do so.

I didn't quite get what you meant by "the government hyperinflates attempting to do so". To do what?
legendary
Activity: 3066
Merit: 1147
The revolution will be monetized!
The idea of bitcoin distribution is not to hand them out as broadly as possible. It is a system to reward people who run their computers to help secure and operate the network. It is not a free lunch program. Miners do work and are paid for it.
legendary
Activity: 1449
Merit: 1001
Correct unless the all confidence in the currency is lost, the government can't sell bonds, and the value of the currency plummets to its intrinsic value of 0, e.g. Wiemar (Communist) Germany, Zimbabwe

TLDR. As I said before as long as government accepts taxes paid in the currency it will retain some value above zero...

Incorrect. The government can't enforce taxes if the people and the bond investors are running from the currency, because the government can't pay the police, tax collectors, etc.. The government hyperinflates attempting to do so.

In short, fiat hinges on confidence. This is why the government will always squash any competition which would threaten confidence.

On these 2 points  at least I agree with AnonyMint.  Will they want to squash it? Will they be able to?  Will they find a way to use it or live with it?  Nobody has that answer.
legendary
Activity: 3514
Merit: 1280
English ⬄ Russian Translation Services

"This article needs additional citations for verification. Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed"

There were many economic theories throughout history of human thought. The prevailing theory and most researched one in economics nowadays is the subjective theory of value where the notion of "intrinsic value" has no meaning...
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
Correct unless the all confidence in the currency is lost, the government can't sell bonds, and the value of the currency plummets to its intrinsic value of 0, e.g. Wiemar (Communist) Germany, Zimbabwe

TLDR. As I said before as long as government accepts taxes paid in the currency it will retain some value above zero...

Incorrect. The government can't enforce taxes if the people and the bond investors are running from the currency, because the government can't pay the police, tax collectors, etc.. The government hyperinflates attempting to do so.

In short, fiat hinges on confidence. This is why the government will always squash any competition which would threaten confidence.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
I said its intrinsic value is 0, the value only exists because of the confidence the people have in the government retaining control and yes the ability to tax.

Do you argue that the intrinsic value of fiat is not 0?

There is no such notion as "intrinsic value" in economics (there is some in finance but it has very specific scope of usage and surely it is not what you meant by it). I would prefer that you use correct well-established terms...

Eat humble pie:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intrinsic_theory_of_value
legendary
Activity: 3514
Merit: 1280
English ⬄ Russian Translation Services
I said its intrinsic value is 0, the value only exists because of the confidence the people have in the government retaining control and yes the ability to tax.

Do you argue that the intrinsic value of fiat is not 0?

There is no such notion as "intrinsic value" in economics (there is some in finance but it has very specific scope of usage and surely it is not what you meant by it). I would prefer that you use correct well-established terms...
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
True- after a housing bubble bursts you still have the houses. Most stocks the same.
The fiat debt though isn't really an asset. It's value is based on that the government will back it- forcefully if it has to.

Yes, you still have the houses which are now less expensive. The same holds true for a debt currency, you still have the currency which has depreciated. And as long as you can pay taxes with it would retain some "intrinsic value" (as AnonyMint would incorrectly say), so it can be considered as an "asset"...

I said its intrinsic value is 0, the value only exists because of the confidence the people have in the government retaining control and yes the ability to tax.

Do you argue that the intrinsic value of fiat is not 0? Confidence is not a quality you can depend on independently of all things, rather dependent, ephemeral one even if on long time scales.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
To distribute money more efficiently all you need to do is ensure that 'mining' (the process itself, not its results) has a net positive effect (involves expenditure on renewable goods and services) instead of a net negative one (energy waste). It's simple as that.

(quoting myself here...)

OK it's not quite as simple as that, because you have to factor in time horizons and the early adoption phase, in which coin production costs are marginal (thus not allowing for efficient distribution). With BTC the design was such that a great deal of coins were produced during the early phase for a very low cost (the first 1,000,000 BTC were mined for a cost of what it would take to mine less than 1 BTC today, roughly speaking).

More efficient distribution would thus require (aside from finding a way to make mining a net positive process) a shorter early adoption phase in which production costs are trivial, so that we could arrive at the point where mining produces tangible positive effects more quickly. However, the early adoption phase should still last long enough and be lucrative enough for the coin to gain popularity.  

Efficiency in the context of this thread is the rate (relative to the maximum possible rate) of adoption of the currency as a currency and not as an investment asset. Very few people in normal times (before sovereign debt crisis safe haven demand) considered holding dollars long-term (in your mattress, i.e paying no interest) as an investment. A hallmark feature of a currency is you rarely concern yourself with its exchange value.

I am asserting that the challenge is to design an upstart crypto-currency which has enough near-term investment appeal to drive excitement and investment adoption, while simultaneously driving synergistic adoption for spending which eventually subsumes the investment gains.

Some here are challenging my assertion.
legendary
Activity: 3514
Merit: 1280
English ⬄ Russian Translation Services
Correct unless the all confidence in the currency is lost, the government can't sell bonds, and the value of the currency plummets to its intrinsic value of 0, e.g. Wiemar (Communist) Germany, Zimbabwe

TLDR. As I said before as long as government accepts taxes paid in the currency it will retain some value above zero...
legendary
Activity: 3514
Merit: 1280
English ⬄ Russian Translation Services
True- after a housing bubble bursts you still have the houses. Most stocks the same.
The fiat debt though isn't really an asset. It's value is based on that the government will back it- forcefully if it has to.

Yes, you still have the houses which are now less expensive. The same holds true for a debt currency, you still have the currency which has depreciated. And as long as you can pay taxes with it would retain some "intrinsic value" (as AnonyMint would incorrectly say), so it can still be considered as an "asset"...
legendary
Activity: 1449
Merit: 1001
Maybe the term is inaccurate but not sure.  What happens if no new debt is created and even is paid back?
In a ponzi if people start pulling out and nothing new flows in... same thing.

When a real estate bubble pops prices are falling but they don't drop to zero (as in a Ponzi) because real estate has utility beside mere speculation and it can be used according to its intended purpose, i.e. for living. In the case of a fiat currency its utility consists in the goods and services which you can exchange for it. So if a debt bubble pops you will see the currency purchasing power diminish in proportion with its commodity content just like the real estate loses its value after burst down to its real non-speculative demand. Bubble popping strips the asset price of its speculative part

Whereas in a Ponzi scheme no real component in the underlying "asset" is present...

True- after a housing bubble bursts you still have the houses. Most stocks the same.
The fiat debt though isn't really an asset. It's value is based on that the government will back it- forcefully if it has to.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
Maybe the term is inaccurate but not sure.  What happens if no new debt is created and even is paid back?
In a ponzi if people start pulling out and nothing new flows in... same thing.

When a real estate bubble pops prices are falling but they don't drop to zero (as in a Ponzi) because real estate has utility beside mere speculation and it can be used according to its intended purpose, i.e. for living. In the case of a fiat currency its utility consists in the goods and services which you can exchange for it. So if a debt bubble pops you will see the currency purchasing power diminish in proportion with its commodity content just like the real estate loses its value after burst down to its real demand. Bubble popping strips the asset price of its speculative part

Whereas in a Ponzi scheme no real component in the underlying "asset" is present...

Correct unless all the confidence in the currency is lost, the government can't sell bonds, and the value of the currency plummets to its intrinsic value of 0, e.g. Wiemar (Communist) Germany, Zimbabwe. The intrinsic value of fiat relies on society maintaining confidence in its government and financial system. Hyperinflation only occurs in thoroughly, abjectly broken societies where the only remaining power of the government is to print money and that is why we will not see hyperinflation of the US dollar (nor equivalently Bitcoin entirely replacing the dollar with a runaway market price, singularity). Rather what governments do during end game debt crises where the society still functions and trusts the government, is "debt is future taxation", i.e. the government hunts down all wealth in a deflationary spiral. The currency GAINS value relative to other peripheral currencies (watch all emerging market currencies other than Yuan implode 2016+), yet production implodes and purchasing power falls for everyone. Strange brew of inflationary, deflation. This is the most dangerous outcome and can precipitate a Dark Age.
legendary
Activity: 3514
Merit: 1280
English ⬄ Russian Translation Services
Maybe the term is inaccurate but not sure.  What happens if no new debt is created and even is paid back?
In a ponzi if people start pulling out and nothing new flows in... same thing.

When a real estate bubble pops prices are falling but they don't drop to zero (as in a Ponzi) because real estate has utility beside mere speculation and it can be used according to its intended purpose, i.e. for living. In the case of a fiat currency its utility consists in the goods and services which you can exchange for it. So if a debt bubble pops you will see the currency purchasing power diminish in proportion with its commodity content just like the real estate loses its value after burst down to its real non-speculative demand. Bubble popping strips the asset price of its speculative part

Whereas in a Ponzi scheme no real component in the underlying "asset" is present...
legendary
Activity: 1449
Merit: 1001


Nope. In a housing bubble new buyers are required to continually enter the market and buy new homes lest the bubble should burst, but this doesn't make it a Ponzi scheme. What you refer to as a Ponzi scheme is correctly called a debt bubble. The debt bubble popping may actually cause an economic collapse but the possibility of it doesn't make a debt based fiat system a Ponzi either. You're just using the wrong term here...

Maybe the term is inaccurate but not sure.  What happens if no new debt is created and even is paid back?
In a ponzi if people start pulling out and nothing new flows in... same thing.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
I cannot follow the rest of your argumentation. I do not advocate "cashing out" because you mean buying fiat with your Bitcoins. Why would you choose to hold such a lousy form value preservation for anything but a very short time? I also don't understand how anyone can see Bitcoin as a Ponzi scheme. Indeed, fiat currencies are the biggest Ponzi scheme to have ever existed.

I beg to differ. As long as a fiat currency can be used for buying goods and services, it is not a Ponzi scheme. What makes a Ponzi scheme different from a bubble lies in the fact that its value token (certificate, share, whatever) can't be used for anything but investing in itself, directly or by some intermediary (to make it less evident). In a bubble an underlying asset can be either used directly (e.g. real estate), or for other purposes not related to investing. The latter holds true for Bitcoin (that's why it's not a Ponzi scheme either) and in this aspect it's not widely different from other fiats...

A debt based fiat system IS a ponzi. New debt has to be created continually or it all collapses. We just happen to live in an age where the end is in sight.

Nope. In a housing bubble new buyers are required to continually enter the market and buy new homes lest the bubble should burst, but this doesn't make it a Ponzi scheme. New debt being created continually makes it a debt bubble. The debt bubble popping may actually cause an economic collapse, but the possibility of it doesn't make a debt based fiat system a Ponzi either. You're just using the wrong term here...

I had taken this position recently, but I said "yes" upthread because I was remembering the notion (is it true?) that all fiat currencies have returned to their intrinsic value of 0 on long enough time scales.
legendary
Activity: 3514
Merit: 1280
English ⬄ Russian Translation Services
I cannot follow the rest of your argumentation. I do not advocate "cashing out" because you mean buying fiat with your Bitcoins. Why would you choose to hold such a lousy form value preservation for anything but a very short time? I also don't understand how anyone can see Bitcoin as a Ponzi scheme. Indeed, fiat currencies are the biggest Ponzi scheme to have ever existed.

I beg to differ. As long as a fiat currency can be used for buying goods and services, it is not a Ponzi scheme. What makes a Ponzi scheme different from a bubble lies in the fact that its value token (certificate, share, whatever) can't be used for anything but investing in itself, directly or by some intermediary (to make it less evident). In a bubble an underlying asset can be either used directly (e.g. real estate), or for other purposes not related to investing. The latter holds true for Bitcoin (that's why it's not a Ponzi scheme either) and in this aspect it's not widely different from other fiats...

A debt based fiat system IS a ponzi. New debt has to be created continually or it all collapses. We just happen to live in an age where the end is in sight.

Nope. In a housing bubble an incessant inflow of new buyers is required to enter the market lest the bubble should burst, but this doesn't make it a Ponzi scheme. New debt being created continually makes a debt bubble. The debt bubble popping may actually cause an economic collapse, but the possibility of it doesn't make a debt based fiat system a Ponzi either. You're just using the wrong term here...
legendary
Activity: 1449
Merit: 1001
I cannot follow the rest of your argumentation. I do not advocate "cashing out" because you mean buying fiat with your Bitcoins. Why would you choose to hold such a lousy form value preservation for anything but a very short time? I also don't understand how anyone can see Bitcoin as a Ponzi scheme. Indeed, fiat currencies are the biggest Ponzi scheme to have ever existed.

I beg to differ. As long as a fiat currency can be used for buying goods and services, it is not a Ponzi scheme. What makes a Ponzi scheme different from a bubble lies in the fact that its value token (certificate, share, whatever) can't be used for anything but investing in itself, directly or by some intermediary (to make it less evident). In a bubble an underlying asset can be either used directly (e.g. real estate), or for other purposes not related to investing. The latter holds true for Bitcoin (that's why it's not a Ponzi scheme either) and in this aspect it's not widely different from other fiats...

A debt based fiat system IS a ponzi. New debt has to be created continually or it all collapses. We just happen to live in an age where the end is in sight.
legendary
Activity: 3514
Merit: 1280
English ⬄ Russian Translation Services
I cannot follow the rest of your argumentation. I do not advocate "cashing out" because you mean buying fiat with your Bitcoins. Why would you choose to hold such a lousy form value preservation for anything but a very short time? I also don't understand how anyone can see Bitcoin as a Ponzi scheme. Indeed, fiat currencies are the biggest Ponzi scheme to have ever existed.

I beg to differ. As long as a fiat currency can be used for buying goods and services, it is not a Ponzi scheme. What makes a Ponzi scheme different from a bubble lies in the fact that its value token (certificate, share, whatever) can't be used for anything but investing in itself, directly or by some intermediary (to make it less evident). In a bubble an underlying asset can be either used directly (e.g. real estate), or for other purposes not related to investing. The latter holds true for Bitcoin (that's why it's not a Ponzi scheme either) and in this aspect it's not widely different from other fiats...
npl
full member
Activity: 158
Merit: 100
To distribute money more efficiently all you need to do is ensure that 'mining' (the process itself, not its results) has a net positive effect (involves expenditure on renewable goods and services) instead of a net negative one (energy waste). It's simple as that.

(quoting myself here...)

OK it's not quite as simple as that, because you have to factor in time horizons and the early adoption phase, in which coin production costs are marginal (thus not allowing for efficient distribution). With BTC the design was such that a great deal of coins were produced during the early phase for a very low cost (the first 1,000,000 BTC were mined for a cost of what it would take to mine less than 1 BTC today, roughly speaking).

More efficient distribution would thus require (aside from finding a way to make mining a net positive process) a shorter early adoption phase in which production costs are trivial, so that we could arrive at the point where mining produces tangible positive effects more quickly. However, the early adoption phase should still last long enough and be lucrative enough for the coin to gain popularity.  
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