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Topic: If Anarchy can work, how come there are no historical records of it working? - page 16. (Read 17188 times)

hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
We do know that our modern ideas of taxation based on consent, individual freedom and so on evolved between the War of the Roses and the English Civil War. 
Now I think you're using a funny definition of "consent." By definition, taxation applies even to those who do not consent, else it wouldn't be taxation.
I think you are being a pompous ass.  You look at the ideology of people that lived in the 1640s, say "Oh I know better now" and act superior. 

Get over yourself already.
Tsk, name calling? Really? I thought better of you, Hawker.

Besides, isn't this like saying "People who support the Heliocentric model of the solar system are pompous asses for saying they know better now than those who thought the Earth was the center of the universe."?

C'mon, man, science is all about discarding flawed premises as soon as they are found to be flawed, not holding onto them because people 500 years ago thought they were cool.
newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
300 Trojans died at Thermopylae for freedom.  You could say it was for the "illusion of" freedom.  But that tells us nothing about them and a lot about you.  Likewise, over 100,000 Britons died for the right to have taxation based on the consent of the Commons. What exactly is the point of saying they died for "the illusion of" freedom.  Do you seriously imagine the concept of freedom in 350 years will be the same as it is today?  Are you arguing for the "illusion of" freedom yourself?

This is the core of the discussion.

People like Myrkul don't seem to understand that freedom is not some sort of metaphysical concept. There are vastly differing concepts of freedom; a lot of people and cultures have their own interpretations of it.

Case in point: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rep-bernie-sanders/what-can-we-learn-from-de_b_3339736.html

Quote
In Denmark, there is a very different understanding of what "freedom" means. In that country, they have gone a long way to ending the enormous anxieties that comes with economic insecurity. Instead of promoting a system which allows a few to have enormous wealth, they have developed a system which guarantees a strong minimal standard of living to all -- including the children, the elderly and the disabled.
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
We do know that our modern ideas of taxation based on consent, individual freedom and so on evolved between the War of the Roses and the English Civil War. 
Now I think you're using a funny definition of "consent." By definition, taxation applies even to those who do not consent, else it wouldn't be taxation.

I think you are being a pompous ass.  You look at the ideology of people that lived in the 1640s, say "Oh I know better now" and act superior. 

Get over yourself already.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
We do know that our modern ideas of taxation based on consent, individual freedom and so on evolved between the War of the Roses and the English Civil War. 
Now I think you're using a funny definition of "consent." By definition, taxation applies even to those who do not consent, else it wouldn't be taxation.
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
...snip...

300 Trojans died at Thermopylae for freedom.  You could say it was for the "illusion of" freedom.  But that tells us nothing about them and a lot about you.  Likewise, over 100,000 Britons died for the right to have taxation based on the consent of the Commons. What exactly is the point of saying they died for "the illusion of" freedom.  Do you seriously imagine the concept of freedom in 350 years will be the same as it is today?  Are you arguing for the "illusion of" freedom yourself?
We're not talking about freedom. We're talking about taxation, democracy, and consent. Sparta (not Troy, btw) was anything but a democracy. I suspect the non-standard definition you're using is in deed "democratic," given that you keep referring to representatives and monarchies as your examples of "democratic consent." Let me correct that:

Quote
de·moc·ra·cy  
/diˈmäkrəsē/
Noun
    A system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state

If you're looking for a Classical example, Athens would be your best bet.

But even then, Democracy is based on a logical fallacy: The idea that because an idea is popular, it is the best.

Again, that tells us nothing about history and a lot about you.  You think that you can apply your 21st century ideas to the people who lived 100s of years ago and that makes you superior. 
Let me know when you have a point to make.

My point stands.  We don't know how these ideas evolve.  We do know that our modern ideas of taxation based on consent, individual freedom and so on evolved between the War of the Roses and the English Civil War. 
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
...snip...

300 Trojans died at Thermopylae for freedom.  You could say it was for the "illusion of" freedom.  But that tells us nothing about them and a lot about you.  Likewise, over 100,000 Britons died for the right to have taxation based on the consent of the Commons. What exactly is the point of saying they died for "the illusion of" freedom.  Do you seriously imagine the concept of freedom in 350 years will be the same as it is today?  Are you arguing for the "illusion of" freedom yourself?
We're not talking about freedom. We're talking about taxation, democracy, and consent. Sparta (not Troy, btw) was anything but a democracy. I suspect the non-standard definition you're using is in deed "democratic," given that you keep referring to representatives and monarchies as your examples of "democratic consent." Let me correct that:

Quote
de·moc·ra·cy  
/diˈmäkrəsē/
Noun
    A system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state

If you're looking for a Classical example, Athens would be your best bet.

But even then, Democracy is based on a logical fallacy: The idea that because an idea is popular, it is the best.

Again, that tells us nothing about history and a lot about you.  You think that you can apply your 21st century ideas to the people who lived 100s of years ago and that makes you superior. 
Let me know when you have a point to make.
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
...snip...

300 Trojans died at Thermopylae for freedom.  You could say it was for the "illusion of" freedom.  But that tells us nothing about them and a lot about you.  Likewise, over 100,000 Britons died for the right to have taxation based on the consent of the Commons. What exactly is the point of saying they died for "the illusion of" freedom.  Do you seriously imagine the concept of freedom in 350 years will be the same as it is today?  Are you arguing for the "illusion of" freedom yourself?
We're not talking about freedom. We're talking about taxation, democracy, and consent. Sparta (not Troy, btw) was anything but a democracy. I suspect the non-standard definition you're using is in deed "democratic," given that you keep referring to representatives and monarchies as your examples of "democratic consent." Let me correct that:

Quote
de·moc·ra·cy  
/diˈmäkrəsē/
Noun
    A system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state

If you're looking for a Classical example, Athens would be your best bet.

But even then, Democracy is based on a logical fallacy: The idea that because an idea is popular, it is the best.

Again, that tells us nothing about history and a lot about you.  You think that you can apply your 21st century ideas to the people who lived 100s of years ago and that makes you superior. 
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
taxation based on democratic consent
By that, I assume you mean the majority consenting to tax the minority?

No - back then it was the minority taxing the majority.  Its only recently that the franchaise has been extended enough to include those without class or property.  By recently I mean the 1800s.
Then you meant to say "taxation based on the illusion of democratic consent," which is still going strong.

No I meant what I said.  People fought to the death for this stuff - you may regard them as having been deluded fools but that doesn't mean it makes sense to re-write history so that only people who lived in the 1600s but had a 2103 perspective come out OK.
Then perhaps you are using a non-standard definition of "democratic"? Or maybe "consent"?

300 Trojans died at Thermopylae for freedom.  You could say it was for the "illusion of" freedom.  But that tells us nothing about them and a lot about you.  Likewise, over 100,000 Britons died for the right to have taxation based on the consent of the Commons. What exactly is the point of saying they died for "the illusion of" freedom.  Do you seriously imagine the concept of freedom in 350 years will be the same as it is today?  Are you arguing for the "illusion of" freedom yourself?
We're not talking about freedom. We're talking about taxation, democracy, and consent. Sparta (not Troy, btw) was anything but a democracy. I suspect the non-standard definition you're using is in deed "democratic," given that you keep referring to representatives and monarchies as your examples of "democratic consent." Let me correct that:

Quote
de·moc·ra·cy 
/diˈmäkrəsē/
Noun
    A system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state

If you're looking for a Classical example, Athens would be your best bet.

But even then, Democracy is based on a logical fallacy: The idea that because an idea is popular, it is the best.
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
taxation based on democratic consent
By that, I assume you mean the majority consenting to tax the minority?

No - back then it was the minority taxing the majority.  Its only recently that the franchaise has been extended enough to include those without class or property.  By recently I mean the 1800s.
Then you meant to say "taxation based on the illusion of democratic consent," which is still going strong.

No I meant what I said.  People fought to the death for this stuff - you may regard them as having been deluded fools but that doesn't mean it makes sense to re-write history so that only people who lived in the 1600s but had a 2103 perspective come out OK.
Then perhaps you are using a non-standard definition of "democratic"? Or maybe "consent"?

300 Trojans died at Thermopylae for freedom.  You could say it was for the "illusion of" freedom.  But that tells us nothing about them and a lot about you.  Likewise, over 100,000 Britons died for the right to have taxation based on the consent of the Commons. What exactly is the point of saying they died for "the illusion of" freedom.  Do you seriously imagine the concept of freedom in 350 years will be the same as it is today?  Are you arguing for the "illusion of" freedom yourself?
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
taxation based on democratic consent
By that, I assume you mean the majority consenting to tax the minority?

No - back then it was the minority taxing the majority.  Its only recently that the franchaise has been extended enough to include those without class or property.  By recently I mean the 1800s.
Then you meant to say "taxation based on the illusion of democratic consent," which is still going strong.

No I meant what I said.  People fought to the death for this stuff - you may regard them as having been deluded fools but that doesn't mean it makes sense to re-write history so that only people who lived in the 1600s but had a 2103 perspective come out OK.
Then perhaps you are using a non-standard definition of "democratic"? Or maybe "consent"?
full member
Activity: 196
Merit: 100
Google/YouTube
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
taxation based on democratic consent
By that, I assume you mean the majority consenting to tax the minority?

No - back then it was the minority taxing the majority.  Its only recently that the franchaise has been extended enough to include those without class or property.  By recently I mean the 1800s.
Then you meant to say "taxation based on the illusion of democratic consent," which is still going strong.

No I meant what I said.  People fought to the death for this stuff - you may regard them as having been deluded fools but that doesn't mean it makes sense to re-write history so that only people who lived in the 1600s but had a 2103 perspective come out OK.
full member
Activity: 196
Merit: 100
Google/YouTube
Quote
This month marks the 20th anniversary of its demolition.

Sounds to me like it did not work.

It did work, read the diagram. Just because they decided to do something else with it doesn't mean it didn't "work" it was a completely functioning city of anarchy.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
taxation based on democratic consent
By that, I assume you mean the majority consenting to tax the minority?

No - back then it was the minority taxing the majority.  Its only recently that the franchaise has been extended enough to include those without class or property.  By recently I mean the 1800s.
Then you meant to say "taxation based on the illusion of democratic consent," which is still going strong.
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
taxation based on democratic consent
By that, I assume you mean the majority consenting to tax the minority?

No - back then it was the minority taxing the majority.  Its only recently that the franchaise has been extended enough to include those without class or property.  By recently I mean the 1800s.

hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
taxation based on democratic consent
By that, I assume you mean the majority consenting to tax the minority?
legendary
Activity: 1400
Merit: 1013
Which raises an interesting anthropological question.  What causes lead toward a society to remaining voluntary?
Fortunately someone has already done plenty of research on that for us:

http://www.psychohistory.com/originsofwar/01_killermotherland.html
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
...snip...

Which raises an interesting anthropological question.  What causes lead toward a society to remaining voluntary?

No-one knows.  A few countries can point to specific events that turn their history on its head and shaped their destiny.  For example, the Japanese can make a direct link between the arrival of Perry, the rulers seeing that if they didn't adapt damn fast they would be colonised and the Meiji era.

Most of the rest of us live in countries where cultures have evolved over centuries and are still changing.  The US, Ireland and the UK have a regard for personal freedom, taxation based on democratic consent and property rights that was clearly visible in the 1640s during the English civil war.  100 years before, none of those things mattered.  

And our shared political culture hasn't really had a major change since then.

hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
What causes lead toward a society to remaining voluntary?

The answer is simultaneously simple, and complex. It can be best summed up with the quote, "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty."
legendary
Activity: 1204
Merit: 1002
Gresham's Lawyer
http://mises.org/daily/1121

There are.  Here is one that lasted for longer than the United States has been an independent country, before they had their first civil war.

Some have argued that where there is greatest freedom on the planet today, are those places where the Vikings had invaded.

On behalf of one of those countries the Vikings invaded, allow me to say that some have bloody foolish ideas of what freedom means.

Indeed.  That statement needs to define what "freedom" means to the observer.  Rights are not the same as abilities, and permission is not the same as liberty.

And correlation is not causation...

Which raises an interesting anthropological question.  What causes lead toward a society to remaining voluntary?
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