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Topic: If Anarchy can work, how come there are no historical records of it working? - page 8. (Read 17155 times)

legendary
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1217
it is my understanding that wales was borderline anarchic for about 100 years during which time they were under constant attack from the centralized state of Britain.

Ireland stood up for 600 years (out of a 1000 or more as a stateless society) under the assault of the Britons, finally falling when their technology lagged.

another good example. how about afganistan today? obviously its not an anarchist paradise but it may suffice to reiterate the point. their society is highly decentralized and subject to numerous attacks which they have had great success defending themselves against.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
it is my understanding that wales was borderline anarchic for about 100 years during which time they were under constant attack from the centralized state of Britain.

Ireland stood up for 600 years (out of a 1000 or more as a stateless society) under the assault of the Britons, finally falling when their technology lagged.
legendary
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1217
"Because of Iceland's geographical location there was no threat of foreign invasion, so the demand for a national military force was absent.  "

Seems like the existence of the "other" always brings about the creation of military force and a government.



it is my understanding that whales was borderline anarchic for about 100 years during which time they were under constant attack from the centralized state of brittan.

it is also my understanding that the Icelandic civilization collapsed due to internal corruption within the legal system (power that had been highly decentralized for years came under the control of a cartel of 5 prominent families). the invasion was a product of societal collapse not the other way around.
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1022
Anarchy is not chaos.
"Because of Iceland's geographical location there was no threat of foreign invasion, so the demand for a national military force was absent.  "

Seems like the existence of the "other" always brings about the creation of military force and a government.



Knowing where the problems lie helps to formulate solutions, does it not ?

Yes, isolation has helped
full member
Activity: 126
Merit: 100
"Because of Iceland's geographical location there was no threat of foreign invasion, so the demand for a national military force was absent.  "

Seems like the existence of the "other" always brings about the creation of military force and a government.

legendary
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1217
Quote from: myrkul
Most anarchists are now of the Voluntaryist/AnCap stripe. Black and Gold is winning over Black and Red.
This would most welcome news indeed if it were true. do you have a source?
No hard numbers, no. Just a general sense of the community.

unfortunate. i have a feel for the size of our community but i dont have much of a feel for the size of their community so i personally have no idea how many of them there are.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
Quote from: myrkul
Most anarchists are now of the Voluntaryist/AnCap stripe. Black and Gold is winning over Black and Red.
This would most welcome news indeed if it were true. do you have a source?
No hard numbers, no. Just a general sense of the community.
legendary
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1217
Most anarchists are now of the Voluntaryist/AnCap stripe. Black and Gold is winning over Black and Red.

This would most welcome news indeed if it were true. do you have a source?

dunno if it's true, but we are certainly more vocal in the last couple years!

oh yea, we are growing much faster than they are, im sure of that. the big question though is do we outnumber them right now? i would be VERY interested to know that.
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1022
Anarchy is not chaos.
Most anarchists are now of the Voluntaryist/AnCap stripe. Black and Gold is winning over Black and Red.

This would most welcome news indeed if it were true. do you have a source?

dunno if it's true, but we are certainly more vocal in the last couple years!
legendary
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1217
Most anarchists are now of the Voluntaryist/AnCap stripe. Black and Gold is winning over Black and Red.

This would most welcome news indeed if it were true. do you have a source?
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1007
The reason why anarchocapitalism is an oxymoron, is the fact, that the one and only anarchistic (=not ruled by supra-bloodcommunity-authorities) people who ever lived in history - the non-patriarchal, non-monogamous, autark, selfsufficient, matrilineal community - do not accumulate capital and property. Accumulation of capital and property is a taboo in those anarchistic, unruled communities. The homo oeconomicus (patronized collectivist/decadent/protection money payer) is an unknown species in such environments.

Show me this ideal culture that you refer to.


That was human reality (and still is at some unmissioned territories) most of the time in history, until the birth of the tragedy around 10'000 years ago, with the submission of the bovine first and the human later: the patriarchy.


That's just bullshit.  There is not now, nor has there ever been, a society that did not value "capital".  You just don't know what the hell capital actually is.  There have been a number of different cultures that treated personal property in a different manner that I can think of, but none failed to "accumulate capital" and managed to survive long enough to develop writing, or at least be noticed by a culture that had already developed writing, in order to be noticed by history.  If you can name a culture that you believe satisfys your conditions, name it so that I can point out your errors of fact. Otherwise your  just another socialist troll.
legendary
Activity: 2352
Merit: 1064
Bitcoin is antisemitic
Re: If Anarchy can work, how come there are no historical records of it working?

"Those who know do not speak; those who speak do not know."
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1004
The reason why anarchocapitalism is an oxymoron, is the fact, that the one and only anarchistic (=not ruled by supra-bloodcommunity-authorities) people who ever lived in history - the non-patriarchal, non-monogamous, autark, selfsufficient, matrilineal community - do not accumulate capital and property. Accumulation of capital and property is a taboo in those anarchistic, unruled communities. The homo oeconomicus (patronized collectivist/decadent/protection money payer) is an unknown species in such environments.

Show me this ideal culture that you refer to.


That was human reality (and still is at some unmissioned territories) most of the time in history, until the birth of the tragedy around 10'000 years ago, with the submission of the bovine first and the human later: the patriarchy.

Show me the place
where the word became a man
Show me the place
where the suffering began

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCtoVoE5Mm4
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1007
The reason why anarchocapitalism is an oxymoron, is the fact, that the one and only anarchistic (=not ruled by supra-bloodcommunity-authorities) people who ever lived in history - the non-patriarchal, non-monogamous, autark, selfsufficient, matrilineal community - do not accumulate capital and property. Accumulation of capital and property is a taboo in those anarchistic, unruled communities. The homo oeconomicus (patronized collectivist/decadent/protection money payer) is an unknown species in such environments.

Show me this ideal culture that you refer to.
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1007

The notion of capital relies on the assertion that "this capital is mine and nobody else's.


This statement is false.  Many of the modern legal/corporate structures are finely grained in their differences in specifying both the possession and control of the collectively owned and maintained capital of the company.

Quote

Appropriation by a workforce, for example, interferes with that assertion.


Only in the sense that said appropration is by force, against the will or consent of those with a prior claim to that capital.  We do have corporate structures that are specificly designed to limit corporate ownership to present and/or former members of the corporate workforce.

Quote

Can any sort of noncoersive strategy (private police, chains, higher limit on


 wages) be used by the capitalist to maintain control?


Can a capitalist enply non-coercive methods to maintain control of his capital?  Yes.  But the strawman you set up above should be set alight, because those are all examples of coercive methods.  Just because the cops are private thugs doesn't make it a non-coercive solution.

Quote
Using robots makes the question moot. In the meantime, we still have the employee/wage slave archetype toiling away, wasting life, in the real world.

How are you going to afford the service robot?

Quote
I'd like for you to explain the shortcomings of Anarchism without modifiers compared to an anarchism that utilizes a heirarchy of ownership in a way that justifies the extra ten letters.

Good God, where do you people come up with this crap?
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1004
The reason why anarchocapitalism is an oxymoron, is the fact, that the one and only anarchistic (=not ruled by supra-bloodcommunity-authorities) people who ever lived in history - the non-patriarchal, non-monogamous, autark, selfsufficient, matrilineal community - do not accumulate capital and property. Accumulation of capital and property is a taboo in those anarchistic, unruled communities. The homo oeconomicus (patronized collectivist/decadent/protection money payer) is an unknown species in such environments.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
2 confirmations for shitposting troll.
Oh, you confirmed that in my mind long ago. 'Round about your third glossolalia verbal diarrhea post.
full member
Activity: 126
Merit: 100
Capitalism is the crisis.
Quote from: ktttn link=topic=155570
Anarchism covers what youre getting at.
The meaning Anarchocapitalist actually conveys is negative, implying an easy interface with today's ultraconservative, entrenched power structures and a willingness to compromise on the use of privatized violent coersion to control resources you deny to the appropriate commons.

Read Rothbard and Konklin. your understanding  of anarchocapitalism as stated here is completely fallacious. I have found no other stated anarchist philosophy with LESS willingness to use coercion, except possibly mutualism.
Will read.
The notion of capital relies on the assertion that "this capital is mine and nobody else's.
Appropriation by a workforce, for example, interferes with that assertion.
Can any sort of noncoersive strategy (private police, chains, higher limit on wages) be used by the capitalist to maintain control?
Using robots makes the question moot. In the meantime, we still have the employee/wage slave archetype toiling away, wasting life, in the real world.
I'd like for you to explain the shortcomings of Anarchism without modifiers compared to an anarchism that utilizes a heirarchy of ownership in a way that justifies the extra ten letters.

I will try, as I have asked the same question. Right now, I can't type well due to an injured hand. But the gist of the reason for the modifiers is that anarchy itself is so often interpreted to mean chaos. Thus you kinda have to let even other anarchists know where you stand. Unfortunately, there are a few major and a million minor variations of anarchic theory. Less than there are of statist theories, but still problematic.

As for agorism, and it's cousin anarchocapitalism, the REAL point of contention between social anarchists and agorists is the definition of property, not the division of labor. Agorists in particular envision the world as about six billion potential independent businesses.

My finger is killing me. I'll get back to you later.
Get well soon. I might suggest a voice to text program in the meantime if you feel up to it.
I find that the name anarchocapitalist will turn nearly all other anarchists and some capitalists off.
Perhaps it would be better all around to drop the modifier and the prejudice it brings as a possible misnomer and let such subideology stand on its own, and add to.the sum of anarchist thought without polluting it with the trappings of capitalist ideas.
While we cant just grow 50ft tall and alter the ideological structures ourselves, we can use our own language to identify ourselves and our solidarity in more fitting ways.

I may try text to speech. But then again this shouldn't take long to heal.

I actually prefer the term agorist or voluntaryist. The economic side of the socialist anarchist theories simply doesn't work. I want to start a thread regarding several of these points. I've been working on a book for several years. So of course when I'm basically ready to go I screw up my hand Tongue

I came to my conclusions regarding governance pretty independently, then found that others had arrived at similar conclusions and had labled them. You kinda have to go with what is to work towards what might be.
Looking forward to it.
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1022
Anarchy is not chaos.
Quote from: ktttn link=topic=155570
Anarchism covers what youre getting at.
The meaning Anarchocapitalist actually conveys is negative, implying an easy interface with today's ultraconservative, entrenched power structures and a willingness to compromise on the use of privatized violent coersion to control resources you deny to the appropriate commons.

Read Rothbard and Konklin. your understanding  of anarchocapitalism as stated here is completely fallacious. I have found no other stated anarchist philosophy with LESS willingness to use coercion, except possibly mutualism.
Will read.
The notion of capital relies on the assertion that "this capital is mine and nobody else's.
Appropriation by a workforce, for example, interferes with that assertion.
Can any sort of noncoersive strategy (private police, chains, higher limit on wages) be used by the capitalist to maintain control?
Using robots makes the question moot. In the meantime, we still have the employee/wage slave archetype toiling away, wasting life, in the real world.
I'd like for you to explain the shortcomings of Anarchism without modifiers compared to an anarchism that utilizes a heirarchy of ownership in a way that justifies the extra ten letters.

I will try, as I have asked the same question. Right now, I can't type well due to an injured hand. But the gist of the reason for the modifiers is that anarchy itself is so often interpreted to mean chaos. Thus you kinda have to let even other anarchists know where you stand. Unfortunately, there are a few major and a million minor variations of anarchic theory. Less than there are of statist theories, but still problematic.

As for agorism, and it's cousin anarchocapitalism, the REAL point of contention between social anarchists and agorists is the definition of property, not the division of labor. Agorists in particular envision the world as about six billion potential independent businesses.

My finger is killing me. I'll get back to you later.
Get well soon. I might suggest a voice to text program in the meantime if you feel up to it.
I find that the name anarchocapitalist will turn nearly all other anarchists and some capitalists off.
Perhaps it would be better all around to drop the modifier and the prejudice it brings as a possible misnomer and let such subideology stand on its own, and add to.the sum of anarchist thought without polluting it with the trappings of capitalist ideas.
While we cant just grow 50ft tall and alter the ideological structures ourselves, we can use our own language to identify ourselves and our solidarity in more fitting ways.

I may try text to speech. But then again this shouldn't take long to heal.

I actually prefer the term agorist or voluntaryist. The economic side of the socialist anarchist theories simply doesn't work. I want to start a thread regarding several of these points. I've been working on a book for several years. So of course when I'm basically ready to go I screw up my hand Tongue

I came to my conclusions regarding governance pretty independently, then found that others had arrived at similar conclusions and had labled them. You kinda have to go with what is to work towards what might be.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
I find that the name anarchocapitalist will turn nearly all other anarchists and some capitalists off.
The anarcho-communists say: ""You mean I can't steal my employer's stuff?" The pro-state capitalists say: "Without the state, who will I pay to remove my competition?"

I have some bad news for you. Most anarchists are now of the Voluntaryist/AnCap stripe. Black and Gold is winning over Black and Red. You're a relic of bad economics.
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