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Topic: If you were in charge of Bitcoin 2.0 what would you change? - page 3. (Read 1062 times)

legendary
Activity: 4410
Merit: 4788
I believe anyone can make a pull request from Core's repository?

cores repository
(facepalm)
so you have already resigned your mindset that "dev state" are king... ok got that


Then how should the Core developers organize themselves to develop the protocol? No public repositories?
.....
Are they really the king? I believe they are in charge of development because they are competent.

by you thinking everything has to be done via "dev state" organising the development is again you and your chums not even understanding consensus in regards to the byzantine generals theorum
it seems you and your chums are stuck in the mindset of single controlbase of a single general HQ. and happy with it

but i do laugh that doomad thinks permissionless payments is his excuse to avoid understanding consensus of protocol (2 different things)
and then flip flops to also want LN (permissioned payment)

again for the many many many topics he does not understand
devs can write reams of code. they can write it how they like, they can even write it on the leg of a thai bride they contract with,, but the ACTIVATION should not be done in the tyranical way of 2017.

doomad would be in uproar if a non "dev state" team done what occured in 2017

but as always lets just let doomad insult and flipflop.
doomad doesnt want to understand a decentralised network that solves byzantine generals issue. he is happy in a world of only understanding single general and sheep loyal soldiers

thought if he spent the last few months actually doing research beyond his chums he would have learned a few truth about the real situation and not the diatribe spoon fed to him by his chums wanting their roadmap even at a cost of throwing people off the network to force their plan into action.
legendary
Activity: 1199
Merit: 1047
Nothing, BTC is perfect as it is.
legendary
Activity: 3948
Merit: 3191
Leave no FUD unchallenged
all i read is doomad having no clue and just insulting..

typical
may he spend more time researching and less time insulting, he may see what real consensus is, and not the twisted mistaken version taught to him by his buddies.

Ah yes, the inevitable point in the thread where Franky1 thinks telling people to research stuff will somehow make them agree with him.   Roll Eyes

Your years spent studying and researching Bitcoin somehow led you to see tyranny.  Mine, freedom.  I can't even begin to imagine how you think you've learned anything and would be in a position to teach anyone anything when you look at freedom and see tyranny.  You see conspiracy where there is none.  Your brain isn't wired up right.  People could research Bitcoin for the rest of their natural life and still not perceive things the way your special mind does.  Why not tell people to research the moon landings being fake?  Maybe you can call that a social drama and see if it helps your fruitless cause.


Quote
Bitcoin is not a democracy any more It doesn't have elections any more.  There isn't a "vote", as such any more.  

fixed that for you

How can you fix it by saying something that is demonstrably untrue?  If you want elections, stick with the corrupt and bought system that still calls itself Democracy, when in practice, it's usually Plutocracy or Kleptocracy instead.  Consensus > Voting.  Bitcoin has never and will never be a democracy.

Screw your pathetic and antiquated notions of "voting".  Voting is centralised.  Voting is choosing a puppet to speak for you and then fail to do all the things they promised they would do in their manifesto.  Voting is choosing a middleman from a list of worthless middlemen.  Voting leads to corruption and lobbying.  The real power then stems from the money used to fund the election campaigns.  What we have is people freely expressing their will through code without a middleman.  We don't need people to speak for us.  We don't need to choose middlemen.  We aren't susceptible to corruption and simply buying the laws wealthy people want.  Why do you want to change what we have into something worse?


its getting real easy to spot whos bubbies with who because theres the obvious repeat same misguided concepts taught to them by certain people.
one day they will learn about consensus.

You are the misguided one.  You say that "up" is actually "down" and then when everyone asks what's wrong with you, you tell them there's a conspiracy to hide the truth from them.  


one major reason i know doomad has no clue about consensus is because he and his chums do not believe in the need of byzantine generals(decentralisation of power). they believe there only needs one general(centralisation), and a bunch of loyal soldiers(distribution). they just have not really grasped the concept of decentralisation.... or maybe its not of commercial interest to them to want bitcoin decentralised anymore, and instead just distributed soldiers of loyalty following one general

Not only do you keep trying to change the meaning of words like "consensus" and "decentralisation", but you keep forgetting about permissionless.  You avoid the word like the plague.  Probably because it doesn't suit your agenda.

Bitcoin does not have a General.  No single person or group is "in charge".  But yet you argue that one group is in charge and then expect people to take you seriously?  People have eyes.  They can see that you are wrong.  Just because 9000+ nodes happen to be running software made by one dev team, it does not mean that dev team are now "controlling the network".  If that dev team did something users didn't like in their next version, people might not run that software in future.  


one day they will learn about consensus.

You mean "Emergent Consensus", right?  That hilarious part where you try to pretend the type of consensus you want to see in Bitcoin just so happens to be the type of consensus that even the people who invented it can't agree on it and don't actually use it.  Because it's crap.   Cheesy

I've clearly demonstrated my understanding of consensus.  All you've demonstrated is that you think consensus means "I can tell this group of developers they shouldn't propose new BIPs and we all have to agree on what code to write before it's even written and consensus is democracy when it isn't and Bitcoin used to have voting when it didn't and let's make up some more complete nonsense and tell people to research it even though it isn't true and forget what punctuation is and remember to mention social drama and blah blah blah typical Franky1 post blah blah kardashians", etc.

copper member
Activity: 364
Merit: 4
Transaction speed is one major factor that is stopping widespread adoption. Then we wouldn't have these shitcoin forks dumping the market, and less altcoins claiming to be the new bitcoin
sr. member
Activity: 1470
Merit: 325
you cant create a bitcoin 2.0 success just with tech upgrades
legendary
Activity: 2898
Merit: 1823
I believe anyone can make a pull request from Core's repository?

cores repository
(facepalm)
so you have already resigned your mindset that "dev state" are king... ok got that


Then how should the Core developers organize themselves to develop the protocol? No public repositories?

We need competent developers who have the specialized skills to maintain Bitcoin. People who can decide what ideas are good, and what should be rejected, because there are a lot of stupid ideas made, and only a few good ones.

i know you will argue that bitcoin is "open" but any boss can say their door is always open and then say make an appointment and knock before entering or simply go away not now.
even a open door can ask you to wipe your feet before entering
.. oops i mean 'Nack'

again if you understood consensus as it was in 2009 2013. just having code proposals and nodes on the network does not mean jack until majority activation. ill say it again ACTIVATION
so why so afraid of a non "dev state".. why so adamant of wanting a "dev state"?

but the issue is not so much about "dev state" its more so that "dev state" can add code without consensus by either mandating people opposing off the network or by (their buzzword) inflight upgrades, which is in technical terms a trojan backdoor.
its like having autoupdate with no way of setting it to manual or dont upgrade. which is different to how bitcoin was in 2009-2013.

prime example needed? bech32 addresses came about in 2018. was there a consensus vote on it?
what other address formats and op codes will get activated without a consensus...
ever thought bugs can be introduced...
even care about bugs being introduced?


Who activated the changes?

Quote

put it another way. imagine if a dev that was not "dev state" was to add stuff without consensus.. i can guarantee you would be up in arms screaming that something was done without dev state.

prime example needed? research REKT

again dont go trying to use a bitcoin ethos of 2009-2013 and pretend things are the same now
and dont be like your flip flop chums who flip flop to say its open and then flop flip to say "dev state" should not be told what to do and not do because they are king.

atleast take some time and choose which foot ur gonna stand on before you trip yourself up like your flip flop chums do.
because right now you are standing on the foot of wanting everything to go through the "dev state" repository.


Are they really the king? I believe they are in charge of development because they are competent.
hero member
Activity: 2520
Merit: 952
Even after lightning network, Bitcoin is slow compared to other cryptos. So I would change block times, transaction fees and transaction throughput.
newbie
Activity: 27
Merit: 0
 i think if i'm in the technology 2.0. i hope the safety is improved. i'm very hate the hackers
legendary
Activity: 4410
Merit: 4788
all i read is doomad having no clue and just insulting..

typical
may he spend more time researching and less time insulting, he may see what real consensus is, and not the twisted mistaken version taught to him by his buddies.

Quote
Bitcoin is not a democracy any more It doesn't have elections any more.  There isn't a "vote", as such any more.  

fixed that for you

its getting real easy to spot whos bubbies with who because theres the obvious repeat same misguided concepts taught to them by certain people.
one day they will learn about consensus.

one major reason i know doomad has no clue about consensus is because he and his chums do not believe in the need of byzantine generals(decentralisation of power). they believe there only needs one general(centralisation), and a bunch of loyal soldiers(distribution). they just have not really grasped the concept of decentralisation.... or maybe its not of commercial interest to them to want bitcoin decentralised anymore, and instead just distributed soldiers of loyalty following one general

one day they will learn about consensus.
but until then all i see is people trying devilishly hard to not let people talk about the "dev state" situation thats has arisen since 2013+

seems a particular buddy group appear to want to defend "dev state" and not protect bitcoin network security of a community
well give it a while and when "dev state" move on, retire, get hired on other projects. i wonder what doomad and his chums would do next..
as i think these fanboys really dont understand that devs are not immortal and favouring "dev state" more then the bitcoin network is their flaw

goodnight.
legendary
Activity: 3948
Merit: 3191
Leave no FUD unchallenged
in consensus its simple
if people dont approve they should not leave
they should just not approve of something they do not approve of.

leaving is not a vote. leaving is avoiding a vote thus letting the corrupt automatically get 100% simple because the only ones left to vote are the sheep adoration brigade

Bitcoin is not a democracy.  It doesn't have elections.  There isn't a "vote", as such.  If that's what you want to see in Bitcoin, I assure you you're going to be disappointed, because I've yet to see any software that could make the Bitcoin network function in such a fashion.  No one cares what you "approve of" because your words don't mean anything.  I don't approve of you being a lying sack of human excrement, but that's not something I can express in code.  So it's irrelevant.  Run the code you want.  Or make new code.  Those are your freedoms to do with as you will.  Your freedom, however, does not entitle you to tell others what they can code.  If you believe it does, you are the authoritarian.

You run the software you like.  That software matches you up with other users who agree with you.  You then form a network and build a blockchain together.    
If you are not compatible with the network, you automatically leave the network and form a new one with other people running code which is compatible with yours.

That's consensus.  

You can't unilaterally change the meaning of consensus to "this group of devs can only code this and not propose new ideas and we have to have a vote and everyone needs to agree and blah blah blah standard Franky1 utter dross blah blah", etc.  You're a moron and you don't understand the first thing about anything.  

You say you don't agree, but you keep running code that makes you compatible with the network you claim you don't agree with.  Just in case you're a little slow on the uptake, I'll repeat that point more slowly and give it the appropriate emphasis:

You say you don't agree but WHAT YOU SAY DOESN'T MATTER.

WHAT YOU RUN MATTERS and you're running code that relays transactions on a network that enforces rules you clearly don't agree with.

I'm not saying you should leave, I'm saying you can.  I'm suggesting it might serve your cause better than your current methods of lying about "developer control" and the other general shit-stirring you seem to believe is effective.  It's clearly not having the desired effect.  You're not having any success at changing this network, so the next best option open to you is to build a new network that proves your ideas are viable.  But good luck with that, because they aren't viable.  At all.  Which is probably why you're still here.

I have to ask at this stage... are you a masochist or something?  Again, you're free to stick around and keep doing it, but I honestly can't tell what you're getting out of it unless it's some sort of pleasure from pain thing.  I mean, you're not blind.  You can obviously see the 9000+ nodes running code you absolutely despise.  Then you see your pitiful, miniscule, insignificant, handful of nodes running code you like, but it doesn't even touch the sides.  You are wholly impotent.  And yet, you seem to think your best course of action is to stay on this network and then spend vast quantities of your spare time whining about it like a total pussy because you can't get what you want?  Seriously?  If you had a hope in hell of getting what you wanted, then sure, stick around and fight for it.  But as we've established on numerous occasions, not only is what you want impossible, it's also terrible.  The numbers against you are insurmountable.  If anything, support for your ideology is diminishing rather than growing.  No amount of your insane protests are going to change what is clearly a total failure on your part to present a compelling case.  But whatever, stay and keep derailing topics.  It's not like you're having any impact other than being a general annoyance.

legendary
Activity: 4410
Merit: 4788
oh here we go.. mr "dev state" defender numero one with his insults.
yawn

If I were in charge, I'd make sure I did all the things that annoy Franky1 before he ever got into Bitcoin, so that he might never get involved to begin with and we might be spared the horrors of his incessant whiny bitching.


again if you understood consensus as it was in 2009 2013.

You don't want people to understand consensus, you want to distort and pervert the meaning of the word "consensus" to something that suits your bullshit propaganda.  You are attempting to brainwash people.  Fortunately, most people aren't stupid enough to fall for it.  Most people understand that those securing the chain decide what consensus is.  The simple and undeniable fact is that 9000+ nodes are running Core software.  None of the supposedly bad things you whine about (in every goddamn thread, seemingly) would have happened if people chose to run other clients instead.  You can leave at any time if you don't approve of the decisions which the people securing this network are freely choosing to make.  Your quarrel lies with them.  They're running the code you don't like.  

^ the main authoritarian admirer at his best flip flop attempts
look at him tell people that if they dont like things they should leave at any time if they dont approve
typical mindset

in consensus its simple
if people dont approve they should not leave
they should just not approve of something they do not approve of.

leaving is not a vote. leaving is avoiding a vote thus letting the corrupt automatically get 100% simple because the only ones left to vote are the sheep adoration brigade

typical for core fans, want to remove people that dont approve which is what occured in august 2017 (the blockchain doesnt lie)
and thats how the core now hav majority as oppose to only 35% in spring 2017

..
but you lot continue with your mindset of "dev state" adoration. you simply just have to admit that your authoritarian centralists an the debate ends

you fear having diverse teams of different brands cooperating on a single network
you fear having diverse teams of different brands offering proposals that oppose cores roadmap
you fear having diverse teams of different brands that could oppose cores wishes

all you desire is core control where everyone else just follows cores roadmap. thus you do not want a decentralised diverse network of different brands you want a core branded network of sheep  that are just distributing core code to retain cores control and leadership
legendary
Activity: 3948
Merit: 3191
Leave no FUD unchallenged
If I had been in charge in 2009, I'd make sure I did all the things that annoy Franky1 before he ever got into Bitcoin, so that he might have never got involved to begin with and we might be spared the horrors of his incessant whiny bitching.


again if you understood consensus as it was in 2009 2013.

You don't want people to understand consensus, you want to distort and pervert the meaning of the word "consensus" to something that suits your bullshit propaganda.  You are attempting to brainwash people.  Fortunately, most people aren't stupid enough to fall for it.  Most people understand that those securing the chain decide what consensus is.  The simple and undeniable fact is that 9000+ nodes are running Core software.  None of the supposedly bad things you whine about (in every goddamn thread, seemingly) would have happened if people chose to run other clients instead.  You can leave at any time if you don't approve of the decisions which the people securing this network are freely choosing to make.  Your quarrel lies with them.  They're running the code you don't like.  
member
Activity: 392
Merit: 21
You don't necessarily have to sacrifice something (If done right). If we take increasing blocksize vs SegWit.

SegWit have no downsides while increasing the blocksize could give us centralization to a certain degree as the blockchain size increases over the years.

We're far from having Bitcoin 2.0 but BIPs are definitely being put on the table and constantly being worked on so with time, the limitations will you're talking about will start to fade.

I agree with your opinion to a great extent
I add a question here
What is the effect of talking about Bitcoin 2.0 now on the Bitcoin price
I am afraid to be negative.
 
legendary
Activity: 2590
Merit: 3015
Welt Am Draht
I'd look to make the protocol scaleable and then LOCK it so that no dev can ruin it in the future.
This will in turn prevent the need to fork when devs become corrupt

This whole thing exists because it's a group effort. That works both ways. It stops the shit from being injected. It allows the best improvements to be integrated provided there's enough agreement. It also allows life saving fixes when they are unearthed.

If it could be 'locked' then no one would touch it. That implies control and centralisation, exactly not what people are looking for.
jr. member
Activity: 242
Merit: 7
I'd look to make the protocol scaleable and then LOCK it so that no dev can ruin it in the future.
This will in turn prevent the need to fork when devs become corrupt
legendary
Activity: 4410
Merit: 4788
I believe anyone can make a pull request from Core's repository?

cores repository
(facepalm)
so you have already resigned your mindset that "dev state" are king... ok got that

as for anyone can make a pull request.
have you not looked at the moderation
remember you yourself believe and have been of approval that not everyone should be allowed to
here ill remind you.. as it seems you and your buddies have short memories when it comes to flip flopping to prtend its opn and then flop to say its best left as moderated and closed.

We need competent developers who have the specialized skills to maintain Bitcoin. People who can decide what ideas are good, and what should be rejected, because there are a lot of stupid ideas made, and only a few good ones.

i know you will argue that bitcoin is "open" but any boss can say their door is always open and then say make an appointment and knock before entering or simply go away not now.
even a open door can ask you to wipe your feet before entering
.. oops i mean 'Nack'

again if you understood consensus as it was in 2009 2013. just having code proposals and nodes on the network does not mean jack until majority activation. ill say it again ACTIVATION
so why so afraid of a non "dev state".. why so adamant of wanting a "dev state"?

but the issue is not so much about "dev state" its more so that "dev state" can add code without consensus by either mandating people opposing off the network or by (their buzzword) inflight upgrades, which is in technical terms a trojan backdoor.
its like having autoupdate with no way of setting it to manual or dont upgrade. which is different to how bitcoin was in 2009-2013.

prime example needed? bech32 addresses came about in 2018. was there a consensus vote on it?
what other address formats and op codes will get activated without a consensus...
ever thought bugs can be introduced...
even care about bugs being introduced?

put it another way. imagine if a dev that was not "dev state" was to add stuff without consensus.. i can guarantee you would be up in arms screaming that something was done without dev state.

prime example needed? research REKT

again dont go trying to use a bitcoin ethos of 2009-2013 and pretend things are the same now
and dont be like your flip flop chums who flip flop to say its open and then flop flip to say "dev state" should not be told what to do and not do because they are king.

atleast take some time and choose which foot ur gonna stand on before you trip yourself up like your flip flop chums do.
because right now you are standing on the foot of wanting everything to go through the "dev state" repository.
full member
Activity: 410
Merit: 100
I wouldn't do a second version of bitcoin. It wouldn't be bitcoin anymore. As a rule, the original first version is always better than all subsequent versions. I'd rather perfect the first and only version of bitcoin.
full member
Activity: 378
Merit: 100
Of course you can do better. I would change things. Bitcoin is far from perfect. For starters, I'd make it stable. That's the main thing he's not good at.
legendary
Activity: 2898
Merit: 1823
I believe franky1 will love this topic, and will have a lot to say. Especially because of his perceived "incompetence" of the Core developers in maintaining the development of a secure, censorship-resistant cryptocurrency.

Who would be your candidates as lead developers of Bitcoin 2.0?

if you at least once got out of the mindset of needing 'candidates as lead developers' you would then see what decentralisation really means.


We need competent developers who have the specialized skills to maintain Bitcoin. People who can decide what ideas are good, and what should be rejected, because there are a lot of stupid ideas made, and only a few good ones.

Do you believe that all the stupid ideas made by incompetent people should be merged because there was a small group in the community who wanted it?

Quote

where anyone could then propose new features. and without mandated activation dates or coercion. devs actually think about the bitcoin communities needs and make code and release code that would get activated when the community see the true benefits of letting it activate.


I believe anyone can make a pull request from Core's repository?
sr. member
Activity: 1470
Merit: 325
At this point, as masterfully as Bitcoin was created, it has some limitations of course.  

My question is:  Could it be done better, or is it just matter of trading one feature for another (i.e. speed for decentralization)?

all pow token after bitcoin are doomed and will not be successful, internet money will stay however the pow trash will become insignificant

its therefore pointless to discuss about a "bitcoin 2.0"

we will also get into a stage where tech doesnt matter and is exchangable/upgradable and insignificant
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