Topic: If your games aren't provably fair, stop claiming they are. (Read 747 times)

Locking this thread as it's turned into a signature spammers farm.

If anyone runs across some casino to add to the list or has something worthwhile to discuss, pm me.

This is an interesting take on the subject. Personally, my first priority would always be to look for an online casino that is genuine and legit. After such, I would use this forum to check for feedback and if they also have an active customer support system in case of issues on payments, etc. But on the matters of provably fairness of slots, these are the stuff that I generally ignore as the reputation of a gambling website speaks for itself.

Personally, if an online gambling website has been around for a couple of years, it speaks of itself if they are using such fair methods (or rigged results) as people would either continue staying or leaving the website in search for another.

Why not learn it if you do not know what it means? Unless if its not a big problem for you to lose not because your in a bad luck but because a casino cheats on you and you wont know it because you do not know how to verify your bets. Not only few people can verify but almost all of us can verify, it is not really that hard and I suggest learn it on your own.

Do not just depend on others review because not all of them are legit as some of them are only being paid. Bitcointalk is not built to review a casino, there might be announcement threads of a casino but you cannot expect that replies are all about verifying the casino's fairness.

From that list that OP brought up not a lot of those casinos are widely known here compared to reputable ones that almost everyone of us plays.If we just be selective at the casinos that we want to play then the problem of provably or provably not fair will be eliminated.Most of the widely known and reputable casinos here all use a valid provably fair algorithm and no complaints whatsoever we hear against them in such term.

Stick with the casinos that have the highest reputation and least complaints and you eliminated the provably fair doubt because these casinos with high reputation and least complaints they surely don't want to risk their name by not implementing valid provably fair algorithms.

I know that since the OP are explaining these casinos saying they are provably fair but actually they aren't. It's not an advertising slogan to those reputable casinos and has proven through the years, we might not know the expert but somehow if we are in a forum we tend to see the sentiment on casinos that are reputable base on experiences and suggestions. Often than not, we must also do our own research and not just relying on others.

Well, then they need assistance like someone they knew and on some gambling forums like this or other forum outside here. This has been almost the brand of every crypto casinos and I think it's just suitable considering they really are provably fair. I think we have the same taste when it comes to selection, I also stick on casinos that prove their reputations and that's should somehow the best thing to do for all players out there.

I think most casino users don't pay attention if casino is provably fair at all, because they don't even know what that means. Few people are able to verify whether a casino is provably fair, or whether it only claims it for marketing purposes. That's why there are communities like this on Bitcointalk. I think that part of review services also checks it honestly, so you can also confirm it there.

A little research would do but as you said not everyone would catch-up what could be a provably fair if someone like us doesn't have any idea what or where to look for them. All we have to do is follow the reputable one that has a good reputation or if most people would recommend it to you. We really don't have any idea how to verify it so yes, sticking to the proven one is our only choice but could it really be a proven one if the above said that we can't verify it though if we do have the technical skills to verify it?

Only problem here is that not all players have the technical skills or are technical enough to know which casinos are genuine with their claims and which aren't. I see the provably fair as a motto on almost all crypto casinos. Since I don't know how to verify those claims, I just end up sticking with casinos that has been proven to be provably fair and sticked with them.

Fair or not, it depends on how you feel that. When you just try to enjoy the game without overthinking it, you will think that the casino is fair, although you lose your money because you will realize that it is your mistake to use the money to play gambling. If you think that none of them are fair, you do not have to play gambling and never try to play gambling games. You should know the consequences of playing gambling. Otherwise, you will not feel satisfied with what you get from gambling games.

want to know a game is fair or not ? i tell you in the short message:

The result of each games can generated on the server, This means that the result can be generate according to different conditions.
And each casino has its own conditions.
The player can not see those conditions. if a result is fair, why should generate in the server (backend) ?
This is exactly what simple users will never see.

Only a fair game is to generate the result through the front end. Unfortunately, there is no site like this. If so, they will fail in a short time.

So this is my opinion :
if you want to know if a game is fair, I have to say that none of them are fair. other than multiplayer games and a game that does not need to generate results on the server side !
gg

Speaking of verifying bets then not all would really be technically knowledgeable about this thats why they do just presume out its fair when there are lots of people who do play on an online casino
or neither on offline ones. Bad practices would really be there but people would simply stick on whats popular.

Just like on what others been mentioning on which whenever there are lots who had been playing then it do significantly means that they are doing fair and square which it isnt a solid
thing for you to depend on but thats how people would normally react.

We do have our own common sense and will on making out decisions in this regard.

^ How to manipulate the p0hysical slot casino? Which is I think is to manipulate the machine, if there is, it is probably obviously easy to spot that they are manipulating it. I believe in online slot casinos, some of the casinos that I have used before don't have an option to verify your bet which is look suspicious to me and leave the casino. Probably if all gamblers will be able to know how to verify your seed in an online casino, there is no abuse from the casino which is some of them claiming of provably fair which is not.

Extra easy money.  

In the case of physical casinos, this bad practice is common but it depends on the casino in which you get into, there are casinos that do not manipulate slots.

In Casinos online having the ability to always the games have in a higher occupational percentage than offline, because a casino traditional is open 24/7/365 but many machines or games are not 100% occupied, then with only obtaining a percentage of 0.01% (eg) with cheat factor translates into better profits.
So some casinos online it worries very little them shit their reputation  and they are able to say that they have PF but such a thing is not true and as the vast majority of players do not check the seeds they take advantage of it.


^{Edit:
context, online-24/7/365.}

Hey, thanks for the links. I am trying to learn about that, but it is still not good for me because I think we need to verify the bet every time we gamble if we want to investigate the hash. As you say, checking the system itself needs logic and focus on the smallest details, which I can not do because that looks too complicated, especially when I see the hash that has so many things. I will let the casino do that and just believe they are provably fair for their members.

Just like on what milewilda said is that the community wont really be that dumb whenever there are probabilities of non fair bets or something like that because even though it wont get busted on early basis then it would be discovered later on and that will destroy casinos reputation and would really be ending up on having no users because
lots would really be complaining about on being not fair which is normal reaction for people to have experienced.Therefore they should
really be serious on retaining good reputation if they do like to run for long term.

To be honest, until now I still don't know what and how to calculate and analyze what a fair mechanism looks like because I've never really explored it and just played and played without taking anything into account.
although what I did was wrong but actually most of the gamblers sometimes do that and this is what makes something important like this forgotten.
with this, it is a reminder that everything must also be seen from several sides, including whether or not the gambling mechanism that I am involved in is fair or not.

I only know in this forum that if there are suspicious actions, even many cases are not handled faster, their reputation will be destroyed and they will not take long to get visitors to their casino then reputation is very important, otherwise it will destroy the casino. I guess with the above list are some problems that can't be handled then they run away without any news or bring a lot of money.
We must be able to suspect a casino that is in trouble even if it is the first problem.

They could scam out people but nothing do last forever on which they would really be get busted sooner or later and if some sites do run off with those shady acts or being not fair then sooner or later players would find and bust it and when that happens then say goodbye into your business because
it will surely put big effect in overall business reputation and when it do breaks then theres nothing you can do but to deal into the
community feedbacks and criticisms which would really be that normal.

Here is a good article which explains how the provably fair algorithm works: https://www.provably.com/
If you understand the basics, you will probably never need anyone's help.
Verifying bet results isn't complicated and almost all casinos have a pv page which explains how the system works and a step by step guide on how to verify bets. You don't even need to do it manually as there are many third party validators.
However, checking whether the system is flawed or not is a bit tricky. It requires a good sense of logic and to focus on the smallest details.

This part of the case has happened many times and the casinos always have nothing to deviate from because they are unfair but that's only part of it, and what I played on the casino site was totally fair I just believed it.
This case is usually at casinos that are not known by taking advantage of the ignorance of gamblers and then the casino becomes a scam. I think this has happened a lot.
But still, many casino enthusiasts including myself never give up on casino games.

Casinos whether it's an online casino that is crypto or even fiat based, they are cheating to maximize their profits, that's the truth. You only have to choose what kind of way you wanted to lose your money. Playing in a physical casino doesn't guarantee you that they are really playing fair, or if it's PvP in a certain casino, you wouldn't know if someone is with the house and all of you playing against to that someone believes that you are having a fair game but it's not.

We can ask for help from people who are familiar with the server code to prove the system is provably fair or not. He can ask that in here so some members can verify and show to us the result. If you only check the system without trying to enjoy the game, maybe you can become frustrated because that will need longer to find the truth. We as a gambler, don't have to bother to check that code but that will be up to you.

I don't think that not claiming your game isn't provably fair is a good thing in business perspective because if you don't declare that even if it's false, you're going to be losing a lot of potential clientele plus it's not new for businesses to lie about their services and products so I am not surprised that this is the case for some gambling sites.

I found the same description here and it describes how the provably fair system works for a slot game.
For poker and card games, the server secret is used to determine the order of cards before cutting the deck which may impact the result of the game. For slots, the server secret is used to determine the initial position of reels which does not have the same impact (correct me if am wrong).
But the main question remains: why using the server secret alone, why don't they combine it with the client seed for better transparency?

OP did the right thing to open this topic.  Indeed, many players do not even know about such a concept as "provable honesty".  And now they will read this topic and will know.  Although, of course, it is most likely that only a specialist who is well acquainted with this topic can figure out whether it is true that a casino uses provable honesty or not.  But, for example, if you doubt the results of the game, then you can ask the support a corresponding question and see what they answer to the claim "but you do not have a provable honesty algorithm !!!" or give it to me - I will check how honest it is.   ...

What I don't get, and it might just be me, but when you are offering games like this why bother cheating in such an obvious way?
I can tell you whatever I want on the front end of the slot machine say 95% payback. But if I set it to only payback 90% unless you play an impossible number of pulls you will never be able to see the true payback.

Other games like video poker, blackjack, and such you need a much smaller sample size. But slots, you can show one par table and actually run another. So why scam?

-Dave

Now because most online based gambling dominates and is not difficult to find, then don't expect it to be completely fair. Casinos also need the profits they build in running their business. If we talk about traditional gambling, we can still talk about when there is a fraud that can be corrected directly. As for now, we only rely on casino ratings that have a fairness level of above 85%.

Yep, cheating is an integral part of the gambling world,
it has been there since the very beginnings !

Many people including me never thought of this aspect of the gambling sites. I wonder how much money these sites make by not truly implementing the provably fair and taking advantage of the ignorance of the gamblers 

Before people play in the casino, they need to search by themselves and not depend on others' opinions so they can prevent the bad things that can come to them. Related to provably fair or not, we need to search by ourselves or do not have to think much about that because we assume that they will not cheat us. If we can play on the casino that has reputations, I think they will not try to do that thing because if their members find they are not fair, they can leave them. In this way, we really need to be careful playing gambling because the responsibilities will be on ourselves.

At least in traditional games there are alternatives to finding casinos that are not cheating and that offer the game probably fair, but in PvP poker games the alternatives are limited and rng predominates.

I think that in general, rarely any of the players will thoroughly understand the algorithms of provable fairness of the game.  It is difficult and you need to have the appropriate mindset and knowledge that most players do not have.  But I must note that here in BTT "gambling" section it is quite possible to find out how honestly certain casinos work.  It is enough to read a few pages of the relevant topics and you will definitely begin to understand if there are any claims.  And how serious and numerous they are.  For an initial study of the question of casino fairness, I think this will be enough.  After that, you can already read all the reviews on other forums, or even figure out the algorithm, if knowledge allows you to do this.

That's best way to avoid gambling in a site that you are not sure if it's provably fair or not. I would suggest what you said as it is much safer especially those who don't know how to verify it themselves. I find some threads that help how to verify gambling sites helpful so i agree that threads like this should be discussed when shared to those who don't know about it.

Extremely useful thread op. Honestly, I have little knowledge regarding provably fair mechanics myself even though I have been playing in crypto gambling sites for the last couple of years. This thread needs to be stickied if you ask me. Also, betabit.casino is a scam site. I won decent amounts through their sign-up bonus and they deducted my entire balance stating that the sign-up bonus was void suddenly.

I found this provably fair game description on the internet. I'm not technically good, but in these two cases the use of the word "seed" seemed similar to me.


This description seems very credible to me (as for technical noob). Could it be the same cheating in both cases?

Not doing diligent research about a gambling site before using it is the major problem newbies have and the sad part is that they will come to this forum for an assistant after the damage is done already when there's no way the forum could help.

Review sites not being honest about the service is the major problem we have when it comes to gambling but trust is an expensive material in the crypto ecosystem so newbies should not rely on reviews site opinions only cause they mostly focus on their paycheck.

I agreed with what you said but we have also experienced some old gambling sites which also gone bad either and I think it is better to understand a gambling owner's dedication and enthusiasm before using a gambling site.

Newbies don`t do research. They mostly wants easy money. In such a way they are choosing the most attractive casinos - more bonuses, more discounts. Often changes casinos for getting "welcome bonus". It will continue until newbie willn`t get his own set of mistakes. After that he usually ceases to be a newbie.

Well, if you're not careful and not taking time to make a research first on where casino to gamble, you might really end up in this kind of site. Claiming their games are provably fair but the truth is not, especially those to good to be true offer to lure the gamblers.

One of the reason why I rarely trust a new sites because I still prefer the old casinos with good reputation.

Have you ever read a story about an exploit like the one you described? Do you really think random.org will provide datas to serious clients for critical use cases without any safeguards? That's not what they claim

https://api.random.org/dashboard

https://api.random.org/features

Not all will do a research first before gambling. There are some newbies posting new thread regarding to the site they accessed to gamble and most of them experience being not paid for breaking the rules as what most said. Well, 1xbit is the most famous in my opinion. Even a review sites included 1xbit and it's sister company then give a review that is why many newbies are complaining about 1xbit because of bias reviews that shouldn't be included in a review sites except paid ones. We can't force them since they are paid to shill.

Let just hope the newbies will try to do some search on gambling before using it because we still have a lot of them complaining about being scammed by 1xbit despite all the negative trust and the accusation raised about them
Having said that, I won't trust reviews to do the job cause some of the cheated casinos still find a way to manipulate it.

I agree with you, mate. Any business requires transparency of its products and services so that they could gain people's trust as well as to have permanent and more clients. In this kind of industry, the casino establishments must be true to their customers because if they won't, their reputation would be at stake. We are talking about money and reliability here. Once the customer lost their trust to you, consider them gone. Money is very much needed in this trying times, hence we should be able to make the most of it. Casinos should not be greedy because after all, they are making a profit from their regular customers.

The gamblers should also always be on their guard to check if the house is still playing fair. As a gambler, it is your responsibility to take good care of your fund because gambling is risky enough. It gets riskier the moment you don't analyze or double check what needs to be looked at. In addition, the ever told rule to only risk what you can afford to lose so that you won't end up devastated later if things don't go on your favor.

I disagree with your opinion about developing different provably fair systems. This would just make everything more complicated. Instead, it would be better to develop a universal, certified system in order to get rid of all doubts.

This is a better solution when compared to experimenting with different systems and verifying bets manually in my opinion.

Hilarious. You advocate fairness while advertising the biggest scam site in the crypto gambling world? Speechless. Also, players do win now and then in legit gambling sites even though the house will win majority of the time.

The question is, do some casinos even want a provably fair system or do they just want you to think that they have one? I think it's the latter. They declare that they are provably fair knowing very well that for must players that will be enough to trust them with their coins. If they get caught, they will just think of something else. It's not like casinos with bad reputation go out of business. The fact that you are wearing a signature of one such site proves my point. 

Based on my experience winner is always casino and losers are always gamblers. If the platforms are fair then probability of winning must be even for both gamblers and casinos but its not the case. We have seen so many cases where gamblers lost all there money but no casino gets defaulter for paying to gamblers rather there profit continues to increase. Is this just a coincidence.

I completely agree with this, and I don't know how this is essentially the first time that there has been an extensive list of casinos being called out for this stuff.

The fix is very simple. Spend less time and effort on frontend design for 1 week and develop a new provably fair system. Honestly not that hard.

For casinos unable to do this simple fix the only reason we have to assume is due to their illegitimacy. Reminds me of 999Dice.

For sure there any business out there that they would be telling and boast up that they aren't fair and of course they would keep on saying the most fair or fair casino where people do really easily believe but players aren't really that blind or dumb because whenever unusual things happen then there would be always that someone who do make out some investigation and if that time it had been proven out then youre fucked up as a business owner.

You could actually differentiate on something that is going as you go forward or long time playing.Its impossible that you cant really able to notice it out.

Therefore, always stick with known one or had been approved and recommended by most people.

Yes exactly, if we have been aware of these unfair games, just let it be and move on.
But sometimes, we commonly realize this after experiencing several times, the unfair games. And true to think twice again why the games are like this, seem different with previously. That's time is enough to rethink and stop claiming.

If this is so, it means that they only pay attention or mean to attract for the short term period only? not building their reputation very well. because, although they only mean to attract more to newbies, reputation is actually important enough. There is one day where newbies will search on reviews about the games and once they read about these unfair probabilities, they will rethink again using the platform.

It is like I have foreseen this kind of issue happening before I even talk about it in some of my previous when there are countless in the number of new crypto gambling sites on this forum.
The reason why they lied to be provably fair is simple, just to get the attention of newbies and to indirectly steal from their users. These are the reason why I don't choose new gambling or casino site except those I have to know for at least a year.

This title is funny to me because none casino will stop claiming that they are provably fair. That's the whole idea behind that, they lie and cheat to earn more money. Also, as far as I understood, it's possible to make your casino provably unfair while users won't be able to claim that it's unfair, there was similar case on Fortunejack if I am right.

When you are making a business specially on gambling field which is mostly basing on long term aspect then you should able to accumulate that trust that you could get into the community and wont be tending to do those illegal and deceptive stuff for that sake because sooner or later those things would really be exposed and that would surely
be the end of your business once the public had able to bust out  that you are running a unfair casino which it will definitely give out bad impressions and would result
into a complete mess up which is really that very a typical kind of reaction.

Any good site will provide you with all the information you need to guide you along the process of verifying their claims. After all, a fair website is one that provides their services to all, despite their lack of technical ability. To be honest, I don't usually play against the house, and prefer sports betting, so I can't really verify whether the top casinos have this sort of guide in place. Although, it should be.

If that's the case the site should have a provably fair way of verifying that they change the seed each time despite it being on a auto bet.

Fairness is one of the important factor what a casino should have and if they fool their gamblers for telling that they are fair while its is really not a good gesture for them, And for lying about that it tells that casino has capabilities to scam their gamblers in future so its good to avoid them to avoid any loss in future and better stay on popular casino since they are more better than those casino which we didn't know their reputation and intention to grow as huge one.

I'm also basing on their popularity and so far I have a good experience with them.
Just looking at the numbers of OP, I can't relate honestly but if its confirm that this site is fooling gamblers with regards to this fairness then that is not a good site to trust with. Hopefully OP will also study the top gambling site today, because fairness is very important this is just our only way to at least be more profitable.

The house has the control over this, they set up the system but with regards to the seeds it generated randomly. If the site is not fair enough and can’t be trust, there’s no more reason for you to stay on that site better to have the other option and start looking for alternatives. Honestly, I don’t know how to compute for fairness so to be more safe, I always choose the best site because someone will confirm the fairness and that could be you basis as well.

I know,
 But see in case you playing in auto-mode for example, the house can easily manipulate the results to make you lose.. It is easy to detect what mode player is setting


 So without implementing a browser add-on for example that put new seed on every bet, (and save all the proofs data) you can't be sure of anything in such play !

How the server seed is being generated (randomly or not) doesn't really matter. What matters is that it must be generated before the client provides his seed and that it doesn't change till the session ends.
The server seed is the one that must be kept secret and only its hash must be revealed not the client seed.

 What can certify the seeds generated are randomly done, I think of when they know the seed you set (on your side) by leaking in example, they can generate a seed to get the exact result they want

 A simple way to prevent such manipulations is using a little add-on that hash and sign the seed you put, so it can sign the operation with never transmitting you seed/ or key








 Even without manipulation, gambling platforms are always winning, that's what is called the (house edge), a percentage cut from the probabilities of events occurring..
 For example in a game where is there 10 possibilities, the casino don't reward a 10x but 9x instead
 So in the long run the casino is always winner and do profit

In gambling they say "Winner is the one who knows when to stop". If you go through list of gamblers majority of them are losers (correct me if I am wrong). We know that all gambling platforms are manipulated by owners for there increase profits, there is very little money left for the gamblers. I do agree with you that one must do gambling for entertainment only and that too with small money.

Extremely useful thread op. Honestly, I have little knowledge regarding provably fair mechanics myself even though I have been playing in crypto gambling sites for the last couple of years. This thread needs to be stickied if you ask me.

Also, betabit.casino is a scam site. I won decent amounts through their sign-up bonus and they deducted my entire balance stating that the sign-up bonus was void suddenly.

In simple terms, using server and client seeds and hash functions. There are numerous topics already about provably fair random number generators. You don't have to reinvent the wheel.

The question is how the player would be able the verify it,
that's don't give warranty for no manipulation, falsification

Exactly! There is no need to use a third party service when you can do it by yourself in a completely trustless way.
The casinos mentioned in OP can solve the problem and leave no room for doubt by simply changing their pf algorithm to make it use the hash of the server secret plus the client seed to shuffle the decks, instead of relying on the server secret alone.

on the other hand don't they make casinos for business? of course they want profit.
regardless of fair or not according to visitors or players who play it is a thing that is standard because they set it up for business by wanting to get as much profit as possible.
when people say it's not fair they are the ones who should be questioned here.
nothing is perfectly fair on a business trip, regardless of how you position yourself if you already know that it's unfair why is it still being played.

Yes. Someone can intercept the connection to Random.org and hijack the domain to point to a fake copy that outputs tainted random numbers.

Hence why you should never rely on an external service for generating probably fair hashes.

That's best way to avoid gambling in a site that you are not sure if it's provably fair or not. I would suggest what you said as it is much safer especially those who don't know how to verify it themselves. I find some threads that help how to verify gambling sites helpful so i agree that threads like this should be discussed when shared to those who don't know about it.

Well I think with only "few" thousands of hands, you can already quite "confidently" check if the House Edge is of 1% or 4.5x times (4.5%) bigger than that in reality. But I agree with you, it could be quite easily way more transparent and trustworthy than that, if they would use an algorithm allowing a client seed for the randomization of the deck or an algorithm using an external and transparent source for the randomization process as suggested by Danydee.

Your flawed explanation of how your games are provably fair (even though they aren't) are word for word exact copies.  So either they copied your (flawed) explanation, you copied theirs, or everyone copied it from the guy selling the $50 gambling scripts that you're all using.

Look, here's your site:


Here are a couple others:






No it's not.  

Look, in the first two sentence of the explanation you can see the issue:



The server is generating the shuffle.  You could put the cards in whatever order you want and the player would never know.


This is a thread with many players complaining about sites doing exactly what you're doing. 

You think he can't prove it ?! 

There are really people which couldnt really appreciate on what others been doing which is totally helpful on spreading out some awareness specially with fairness issue on some unknown or not so popular gambling sites which do claims on being fair.

They do have the ample or right time to spend on investigating or verifying things which we should be grateful at least on where
these information could save your ass up. 

Regarding the Author to this post: I cannot discuss other sites that you have mentioned in your post as I have not used them and am not associated with them in any way shape or form.

However regarding: www.betabit.casino which is the site that I operate. I can assure you that the provably fair system is sound and fully automated & functioning correctly and not a single player has complained about this. Nobody at the back end has any control over ANY of the games outcomes. It is also highlighted on the site that not all of the games are provably fair.

If there is indeed an issue with the particular game: video poker then I will indeed investigate further and if needed I will remove the game if there is an issue.

However unless you have actually deposited and played on my site - Libel Is A Criminal Offense - ruining websites credibility online without checking in full and making comments as such is a suable offense in a court of law. Please refrain from labelling my website unless you have had a genuine bad experience please. Be respectful.

You can follow the bitcoin talk forum for betabit.casino here: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/betabitcasino-share-your-thoughts-5365927

I know, that's why threads like this one are important. There are also other resources on the world wide web that will teach you how to check whether a game really is provably fair or it isn't.

That's why I said that it's a buzz word in my previous post. Don't trust what the casino says but verify it yourself. Or better yet, stick with proven platforms and don't be lured by the promises and bonuses that new sites will give you to get you to deposit into their accounts.

not everyone will really check those RNG or the seed until they notice how much is lost from thier wallet. but basically, when you don't know what is happening behind the scene, you got to ask yourself whether the casino you are playing is being fair to you. 

you don't even know how you got to play but because people are suggesting. when they say super fair casino you may actually believe that but it's always marketing terms.

I don't know at all to check that. I just play based on their popularity with how they pay people to play there. But it is important to know how casino sites have "Probably Fair" even though we know the house always wins.
The big bonuses or promotions that casinos offer are usually a trap for people who don't care about the safety of their games.

There is no secret on your side. When you set your seed, they know what it is right away - they use it to determine the outcome.  They have to set their seed first though, which is what prevents them from making any changes after you set yours.  The only real secret there should be is the unhashed server seed - if the player were to know that then they would be able to figure out the exact outcome of every bet ahead of time.  The casinos I listed are adding another secret, one that the player has no ability to influence or even confirm how it's created.

Getting the "secret" on your side known by the house can let them doing any manipulation, drawing any result they want
in example if they detect you playing auto-bet will let them know the bets that will be placed




I mean a tool that will be hold externally to prevent any manipulation from the casino
For example with using an extension/tool, which will encrypt the (secret of yours/on your side) and prevent casino accessing it
It will be able to hold all the randomization process, so avoid any manipulation/falsification from the casino

With an external online tool hold independently in an external server, the casino would have to just set at one time the process that needs to be followed

Only problem here is that not all players have the technical skills or are technical enough to know which casinos are genuine with their claims and which aren't. I see the provably fair as a motto on almost all crypto casinos. Since I don't know how to verify those claims, I just end up sticking with casinos that has been proven to be provably fair and sticked with them.

The client seed isn't something that needs to be kept hidden from either party.  As soon as you set it, the casino knows what it is.

Sha-256 provides all the 'randomness' needed I think.


Great thread.   

 What of creating an external open source tool to secure the randomization provided, even if it bet very well-known, casinos would be forced in some way to adopt it !


 It can be provided from an external server so no need of adding module or extension from the client side

I wrote before about some casinos OP mentioned, they are not provably fair and most of them are probably scam that are using exact same template.
You can find many of them on my topic List of Casinos and Sportbooks to Avoid:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/--5283832

 How about client seeds being leaked? a web html page need just some scripts to do so

 As OP said, when the "server secret seed" can be "manipulated" as much as wanted,  that's don't give any real insurance there

It could be done in a way that was basically impossible to prove, and even if you did suspect something and were correct, I would expect you would be treated similar to the way the all too frequent 'I lost too much, it's rigged, you scam site!' player is treated.

They could easily decide to make it impossible for half the Royal Flushes and half the four of a kinds to be dealt and that would change the house edge of their jacks or better game from ~1% to ~4.5%

It would take hundreds of thousands of hands to have evidence of anything suspicious and millions to make a confident accusation.

---

Just added 28 more casinos to the list.

I am so glad someone has the knowledge and balls to come out and to take on these claims. Some of these sites are using "Provably Fair" as a tagline and a industry standard ..as if it has no meaning. (Not a lot of people have the knowledge to question them) 

In gambling.. trust is everything.... we trust the site has the bankroll to honor the winnings and that the bets are fair, so this should not even be a talking point, but some operators still think all gamblers are idiots... and that they can get away with stuff like this. 

The thread mentioned by Ryker is a really nice thread to bookmark, for those who want to verify their bets.
Also, it is in best interest of the casino owner not to lie about provable fairness of their system, because there are users who are really knowledgeable on how to detect if they are faking it or not.
So if they are found lying, that's not a very good image from their end. And their credibility will be ruined.
Though most of the time, we don't verify our bets especially if we are using reputable casinos here, but maybe, from time to time, just make random verification.

Yeah thats a great step taken by yours.this can let everyone know that what is provably fair,as i have seen many post here users have probelms with casinos that they got unfair bets.i was having bad strike at Duckdice.io i got almost 500 losses in row at 9.8% but they keep saying its provably  fair.and later they just paid me some loseback.becous it was unbelievable losing strike.
so yeah i would like to see what you can bring on this fairnes sht

It's not fully provably fair since it's not provably random but it's quite provably fair since they can't change the outcome depending on your final choice and you can check which outcome was the winning one each time at the end of the round. Then if they only create poor outcomes for you each time, you will quickly see it and notice that the true RTP of the game is way lower than the expected one. They could also try to analyze how you are playing from the previous rounds but it's up to you to change the way you are playing at anytime in order to defeat this kind of ploy.

Technically displaying all procedures in the fair category does not mean that the casino is fair. Nothing is 100% if there is no factual data about the justice that is applied. Casino scripts that do not fully prove the game can be called fair. All need a profit for the casino and they have to manipulate 5-10% for the survival of the casino.

There must be a favorable balance. Casino may claim that this is fair and such, but for gamblers the statement of fair casino is a commonplace thing that becomes a welcome promotion. Just look at all the casinos saying they are fair. But is it proven in general for those who lose bets and feel often unprofitable every time they gamble.

Provably Fair is a buzz word. It's thrown around like other buzz words such as fully decentralized, anonymous, private, etc. The sites are just telling you what you want to hear. They know that the majority won't know the difference, or have the time and patience to research it themselves. Therefore, I don't think such claims will stop. They will keep making their rounds and get even worse.

The best thing to do is expose those who are lying and giving players the tools to check such claims themselves. 

That's true. Some gambling sites use these words just to attract players and let them know that by playing on their website is safe. I also don't trust some built-in bet verifiers since they maybe fake too I think every players should know how to verify their bets in manual way or using third party to verify their bets.

The problem is most of the gambler don't know or lazy to verify if the casino is really probably fair. The thread you share is very helpful and this is the first time to know that. Typically gamblers just trust the casino based on its reputation and not because of it's probably fair system.Using the word "Probably Fair" in the website details is a must for all casino since that's the only players need to know so that they can trust it. So we can't imply it to shady casino or casino that not using it since that is a norm on online casino business.

Marking all casino that lying and making it is the best thing that I saw on this thread and its really helpful. Maybe include the link of tutorial thread above for verifying if casino is really probably fair.

Well, as a gambler you can check the provably fair system that they said of what algorithm they had been used.
Indeed, don't claim a provably fair casino if you don't show anything that your gambling casino uses this and as a gambler, we must have to verify first if the code is given was the right generated as and provably fair.
However, here is a great thread on how to verify provably fair or a Provably Fair Guide which is on this thread I fully understand how it will work and how it will be used. ^{[ https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/do-you-verify-every-bet-as-a-gambler-provably-fair-guide-5227525 ]}

I'm not an expert on the technical side of this problem,but I agree with your statement.
Casino owners must not lie to their customers.Being honest to your clients is a very important part of doing business.This applies to every business,not just the gambling business.
On the other hand,the people should be skeptical about all casinos and they should just play for fun and bet small amounts of crypto.Gambling with the assumption that you will make money and betting big amounts of crypto in slots/dice/hi lo games is a recipe for disaster.
At the end of the day,the casino always wins.It doesn't matter if the games are "probably fair" or rigged.

For sure.

I've also seen other casinos use random.org as a generator for their outcomes, and I've always stayed away from these sites.

Are there any caveats with using random.org within this process? Is there any provably fair that does not involve the traditional client-server seed combo?

I've been running into sites using similar methods to implement what appears to be a provably fair way to determine outcomes which could be manipulated by casino owners without detection.  What makes them different from provably fair games that are actually provably fair is the use of a 'server secret' which is a predefined state of the game (order of cards, a number to be rolled, slot reel positions, etc.) which is then manipulated according to the hashed client + server seeds.  The problem is, the 'server secret' is generated without any transparency - completely behind the scenes.  

Video Poker Example:

- The order of the cards is determined behind the scenes, this is the 'server secret'.
- The client/server seed is hashed and used to determine which card will be dealt first. (cutting the deck).

The problem is, the possibility of a high paying hand is first determined during the initial shuffle.  For example, if the A and K of each suit have more than 10 cards between them - there will be no possibility for a Royal flush to be dealt.  

An example of slots from CryptoSlots.com (archive):



I think this is kind of a big deal and don't think Casinos should get away with promoting their games as provably fair when they aren't, it's bad for both players and casinos that are actually offering provably fair games.  The problem is, the average player just doesn't have a firm grasp of the provably fair concept.  They see 'seed' and 'hash' and just assume that that means it must be fair.

Anyway, I'm going to dig through my post history and make a list of all the sites I've come across that are currently doing this.  If anyone else comes across some that aren't on the list feel free to let me know and I'll update.  Maybe this belongs in scam accusations, I don't know.  I'm fine if it gets moved, but I'd prefer it stay here and the discussion revolves more around why certain methods that appear provably fair aren't.

Cryptoslots.com/Slotland.eu  (forum thread - they disappeared from the forum after I brought this up)
Slots: Sever Secret generates 9 outcomes, Server/Client hash determines which of the 9 outcomes is used.
Video Poker: Server Secret determines the order of the cards.  Server/Client hash determines where to cut the deck.
Source (archive)

Cryptsino.io (forum thread)
Video Poker: Server Secret determines the order of the cards.  Server/Client hash determines where to cut the deck.
Dice/3D dice: Server Secret determines "initial roll", Server Client Seed hash determines a number which is added to the server secret.
Slots: Server Secret determines initial state of reels, Server/Client Seed hash adjusts initial state.
source (archive)


Coins777.com (forum thread - owners response)
Video Poker: Server Secret determines the order of the cards.  Server/Client hash determines where to cut the deck.
Dice/3D dice: Server Secret determines "initial roll", Server Client Seed hash determines a number which is added to the server secret.
Slots: Server Secret determines initial state of reels, Server/Client Seed hash adjusts initial state.
source (archive)

Betabit.casino (forum thread)
Video Poker: Server Secret determines the order of the cards.  Server/Client hash determines where to cut the deck.
Don't see an explanation on their site, you have to verify a bet to figure out how it works.  

I haven't checked the following casinos myself, but they all have the same verbatim terms that include "When you open the game page the server generates a secret and a seed and Reveals its hash" (Identicle to 3 of the casinos already on the list) .  I believe they all use the same script, which is for sale here. (Thank you to Bitinity for posting this in another thread)

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