Topic: If you're trying to breathe, you're resisting arrest, cardiac arrest that is! (Read 537 times)

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In this case it doesn't matter, since there are videos and websites coming out that show how it was all a faked, staged act, anyway. Whenever it happens this way or that, it has to be judged case by case.


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I agree with you. I also thought about the staging. Again, everything happens for some reason, and the destruction that the demonstrators caused is also needed for something. I don’t know whose machinations this is, how it coincided that elections and such events are coming soon.

In this case it doesn't matter, since there are videos and websites coming out that show how it was all a faked, staged act, anyway. Whenever it happens this way or that, it has to be judged case by case.

In the security camera footage, it doesn't like he is being at all combative, but its hard to say for sure why he went to the ground here (watch this video from about 5:20 until the end):

https://youtu.be/VDd5GlrgvsE?t=320

I don't think he ever got back up off the ground after this, but I could be mistaken.

In any case, I appreciate your sensible viewpoints and its good to get some insight into the matter that the rest of us don't necessarily consider.

 NO.  When the fight stops, the force stops. But you always need to be ready to re-engage. As they often start fighting again after a break.

But you don't know if that knee applied downward pressure, or was just there as a reminder to Floyd that he shouldn't try to get up.

With excited delirium, the rule is 'contain and restrain' til EMS arrives and can sedate.

I highly doubt Floyd "fell to the ground while handcuffed."  More likely that he fought and resisted until the cops took him to the ground. Taking a combative criminal to the ground is standard control techniques. Once on the ground, they needed to control him til EMS arrived.  But they failed by keeping him on his belly. That's a big no-no due to positional asphyxiation. The knee looks bad, but I'm still putting my money on a different cop as the real killer.  The cop that was on his back, preventing rise and fall of the chest cavity, making breathing increasingly difficult as time progressed, until respiratory arrest set in.  
   Knee-in-neck cop had probably done that same thing a dozen times before without issue.  And I'd be willing to bet he seemed so dis-interested in Floyd's comments, because he felt he wasn't applying any pressure, and didn't know the cop to his right, on Floyd's back, was killing him.  (Just a theory)

You're showing the fine print for the entire ActBlue website, which includes language for donations made specifically to the PAC fund.

The funds from ActBlue Charities don't go into the PAC. The PAC funds come from donations made specifically to the ActBlue PAC fund (not the charity).

https://www.influencewatch.org/non-profit/actblue-charities/

I find this to be quite sensible. However, my question to you is, do you really think Floyd needed a knee to the neck for 8 minutes after falling to the ground while handcuffed? Was he really fighting the cops at that point?

There are two ways to choke some one out. You can do it by restricting their air supply, or by restricting their blood supply via the carotid arteries in the neck. Cutting off the blood supply is generally considered the safer of the two choices as the trachea can be collapsed and will inhibit breathing even after pressure is removed. When you are flat on your stomach, your head is turned, thus pressure applied to the "back" of the neck is actually to the sides, pinching off these arteries.

When combined with the methamphetamines, fentanyl, existing cardiac issues, and COVID infection, there are a lot of other very serious contributing factors to his death. Many police forces have banned any kind of choking type holds for this reason, but Minneapolis police explicitly trained to use this technique.

Other related news:

"One former nightclub coworker tells CBS News the two men “bumped heads.”"

https://twitter.com/CBSEveningNews/status/1270485898585690112

I have found it strange that someone could choke via pressure on the back of their neck. That is not something I have heard of until about two weeks ago.

Sadly, this probably doesn't matter. Chauvin has already been tried in public. There had been about 20+ police officers stationed outside his house protecting him when he turned himself in (before he was charged), and I have heard that "protestors" were stopping multiple food deliveries to his house. Ben Crump, the ambulance chasing attorney representing the family, was calling for Chauvin to get the death penalty I believe before there was any type of medical report on Floyd's death.

If you are right, the root cause of death is really that one person was having to train two new Police officers. Cutting police funding is only going to cause more of these types of situations, not less.

Or, another point to consider.  Chauvin's knee at the neck might not have been the 'aha' moment everyone thinks it was.  I'd be willing to make a small wager that the officer on Floyd's back was the real trigger for positional asphyxiation.

Appearently an ambulance was called. If the cries for help is an everyday occurrence, if the other officers were not in a position to see how Chauvin's knee was placed, it may not be reasonable to hold them accountable, depending on the specific procedures of their department, and considering they were still in training. At the very least, I would reserve judgment until the trial. 

Quite often.  Usually when they're on drugs and fighting. My department had another one just yesterday. But the four officers properly controlled him, kept him upright, and detained against a guardrail til EMS got there to Ketamine the guy.  
   The hospital called a few hours later and to quote the work email, the doctor said “had they pinned him down on his stomach, he could have easily fought till he coded”.

The other one we see a lot is the phantom "chest pains" when they don't want to go to jail. False 99% of the time based on my 2 decades of experience. But, we still have a duty to render aid, so EMS gets called out.

There are already 3 easy to follow solutions that everyone involved in this incident failed to follow:
1. cops failed to follow the rules taught for positional asphyxiation (sit em up, or put em on their side)
2  criminal failed to follow the Nancy Reagan rule, don't to drugs.
3 criminal failed to follow the rule of common sense, don't fight the cops.


Apparently the cops and criminals in Minneapolis are all too stupid to figure this out.

He also continued resisting arrest while saying he was unable to breathe. If you are in an altercation with someone and you cannot breathe, you should submit, not ask for mercy. He was being lawfully arrested, and being lawfully arrested involves using force. If the police were not able to use force to lawfully arrest suspects, all anyone would need to do is resist arrest, and you could do whatever you wanted, including harm other people.

I have lived within walking distance to a popular bar in my city, and some number of years ago the cops were wrestling a big dude, trying to arrest him, and put him in handcuffs, lots of people were watching. During the skirmish, he was claiming to be unable to breathe, yet he continued to fight back. At one point he what I assumed to pretend to pass out, the police put what I assume to be smelling salts to his nose, he made a funny face and continued to struggle. Eventually, he was put in handcuffs and tried to fight being put into the police car. I remember one person saying "there is no way this guy is going to jail tonight" after he was handcuffed. It was amazing how many people were around who were either medical or legal experts who were able to give their opinion on the matter. One girl claimed to be a paramedic but couldn't attend to him because she "was drunk".

Anyway, I am curious as to how often people under arrest falsely claim to be unable to breathe. 

My bet is the DA will intentionally botch the case with the hope it will cause more riots, and to push the false narrative that racist police can kill black people with impunity. Hopefully, Trump will be able to successfully bring civil rights charges against him that will carry substantial jail time.

This is an important point. According to their lawyers, one of them was on the job for 4 days, and both (of the two) were being trained by Chauvin. This means that Chauvin had some level of control over two of the officers. This changes my perspective as to what happened with regards to the other officers. I don't see the other officers being able to find any kind of employment for years. This is especially true considering everyone in the US is now subject to the Social Credit System.

https://secure.actblue.com/content/fineprint

https://www.opensecrets.org/pacs/expenditures.php?cmte=C00401224&cycle=2020

Not quite. The money goes to ActBlue Charities which gives solely to 501(c)(3) non-profits. ActBlue PAC is the PAC and does not receive donations from BLM.

https://www.influencewatch.org/non-profit/actblue-charities/

That's the problem. Solutions need to be found in order to lessen the potential for things to go wrong so easily.

I will simplify it for everyone...

"Donations, Including International Funding, to BlackLivesMatter.com Go Directly to the DNC – This Is Money Laundering"

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/06/exclusive-donations-including-international-funding-blacklivesmatter-com-go-directly-dnc-money-laundering/

Do yourselves a favor and look up the term - excited delirium.
Then look up another one - positional asphyxiation.

Put the two together and you'll see what cops face every day.
  
Then find the Minneapolis PD policy on use of force.  You'll see that the neck restraint is still an approved tactic. It finally got pulled after this incident (20 years behind most other departments)

Now, with the three things above, you should be able to deduce that :
People in Floyd's condition can fight right up until they code. They have amazing strength while under the influence. Tasers are often ineffective in this scenario. Suggested procedure for excited delirium is contain and restrain until EMS arrives. The antiquated neck restraint policy suggests MPD officers have been using it for a long time without issue.  (Most other departments have removed that policy for the very reason it's in the spotlight today). The officers on scene failed to consider positional asphyxiation.  They kept Floyd face down. The inability to breath wasn't due to the officer at the neck, it was due to the officer on his back restricting the expansion of Floyd's chest.

This was the perfect storm of drugs, criminal, resisting arrest, bad Department policy, and oblivious cops.


Then, if you are ready for even more education, go to the Black Lives Matter website.  Click on the donate button.  You'll be redirected to ActBlue who will accept your donation. Then take a look at where ActBlue sends the money. ( a simple google search reveals everything).

This isn't about race guys. Police departments around the world deal with excited delirium every day. This one went wrong, as they can easily do.

It's all politics. There's an election to influence.

State governments are actually going against the Nuremberg Trials Code of Ethics that came about because of those Trials. Are States really trying to be as bad as Hitler?


New York State Barr Association proposes mandatory COVID-19 vaccine, in violation of Nuremburg code, medical ethics, informed consent

Yup, you're right in regards to it becoming into a total shield for all police misconduct and negligence. The attorneys for these police departments have taken Qualified Immunity, which should've been a somewhat OKAY thing to have -- and have changed it into an all encompassing shield.

I don't blame them, as they're obviously going to want to ensure that their own guys are getting into trouble. The judiciary / legislative branch is going to have to change how they look at qualified immunity and fix it.

I've seen some articles saying that the Supreme Court may take up the issue relating to qualified immunity soon. As there are currently 8 pending cases relating to qualified immunity waiting at the SC (https://www.npr.org/2020/06/08/870165744/supreme-court-weighs-qualified-immunity-for-police-accused-of-misconduct) Two justices have called for changes see below:

Qualified immunity, or a form of it, is almost exactly the thing that Hitler's minions tried to use at the Nuremberg trials. But it didn't work for them. Why not? Because they were called out at Nuremberg as men, not as government officials.

Originally in the USA, people were always called out as people, not in their legal person capacity. Certainly it was mentioned that they were ACTING in their legal person capacity. But it was [wo]men who were doing the act that they did. And as [wo]men, what they did was based on how they harmed someone who didn't deserve it, or at least didn't deserve the quality/quantity of harm done to them.

Innocent until proven guilty. Certainly government people, especially law enforcement, need to restrict and restrain people who are harming others. The question is, how much? The restraint must match the resistance. If a man is harming other people, and he resists restraint, he must be restrained with the same force that he is resisting with.

A person who is guilty, is not assumed to be guilty just because it looks like he is guilty. That's Old West law. String him up. Mob rule.

We have better ways through the courts. The trick that government has learned to use, so that they can get away with restricting and restraining people far more than necessary, is they have taken the focus off the majority of the basic law, and placed it onto a sliver of law that is called legal law. This part of law doesn't recognize the rights of people... at least not enough of the time.

We need to get back into focusing on the rest of the law - the law that holds around the world - do no harm. If anybody harms someone else, the focus must be on the harm he did, like in the Nuremberg trials... not the governmental position he holds.

Technically that is true. In reality, qualified immunity is used as almost a total shield from liability for law enforcement. As civil asset forfeiture was originally designed to confiscate proceeds from drug dealers and other criminals, it eventually became a "legal" method of robbing innocent people, much like qualified immunity has become almost a total shield from responsibility for police negligence.