In Europe, bank transfers are free and unlimited for all

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Quote from: Silberman on February 13, 2017, 05:37:35 PM

Bitcoin is a technological response to the problem of currencies being kidnapped by the governments of the world, in my opinion the only solution for the scalability problem is a solution that comes either form the developers of bitcoin or from someone else.

The solution (Segwit) has already been presented by the developers, but pools somehow don't find it enough to agree with. Problem with alternatives is that it would be a disaster for Bitcoin if alternatives happen to take over. It basically means that at any time a group can form and potentially disrupt everything and force through their own vision. That's why it's more important than ever to support Segwit.

Silberman

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Quote from: countryfree on February 11, 2017, 06:29:40 AM

Quote from: Amph on February 11, 2017, 01:58:18 AM

you are comparing a finished tool against a non-finished one, bitcoin still don' scale properly, when they activate segwit or hard fork to 2mb or whatever they want to do to address the scalability bitcoin will have proper fee

if you compare it to fiat and the time they need you can actually pay 10k satoshi and be very lucky that it will confirm in one dday, like sepa(actually sepa can take 3 days some time...) so 0.1 cent against free not a big deal for me

Oh, yes. This topic is just a wake-up call. I understand BTC's still in the works, but the scalability problem is taking way too long to fix, and segwit doesn't seem to be going anywhere. Rate of adoption has stalled, so I don't know what's next but ever rising fees do not look like a smart solution.

Something better must be done.

Bitcoin is a technological response to the problem of currencies being kidnapped by the governments of the world, in my opinion the only solution for the scalability problem is a solution that comes either form the developers of bitcoin or from someone else.

Karartma1

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SEPA bank wire transfers work very well for family expenses: bills and such. It truly sucks, as someone else mentioned, when you want to do something "different". There's a lot of pattern recognition for AML going on. I got blocked once(for my own safety even though my account has never been compromised) for transffering an unusual amount on a monthly basis.

TL;TR if you keep it clean, you do the good citizen no problems. The moment you want to actually use YOUR money than you need permission.

BTC does not care about that Wink

*what do I mean with different? Charging a prepaid card to avoid charges and withdrawal fees abroad!!!

pedrog

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Quote from: countryfree on February 10, 2017, 07:12:19 PM

Just a reminder.

From my European bank account, I can make a SEPA transfer to any other European bank account for free. No fee. Nothing to pay. It normally takes one and a half business day so BTC is faster, way faster, but that's not always the case because of the congestion. That used to be exceptional but it's getting the norm. The only way out is a higher fee, which makes BTC less appealing.

Sure, BTC remains the best option for extra-European transfers, and BTC still has the advantage of privacy by being difficult to link to one individual, but all miners and developers shall never forget there's competition out there. Banks, Paypal, Skrill... If BTC wants to be the best, it really needs to be the best.

I have to pay 50 cents when transferring to another bank, you have free transfer to any bank in SEPA zone?

Which country is your bank?

countryfree

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Your country may be your worst enemy

@shield132
Read my words. European SEPA transfers aren't supposed to be in US$. There are also differences between banks for the poor, and banks for the rich. In the latter, there is no limit to the money you can withdraw or transfer. My suggestion is not to have a bank account in the country you live, that's what I've been doing for years.

Quote from: Senor.Bla on February 12, 2017, 07:59:52 AM

Why do you see the phone call to check if it was you as a point for Bitcoin? Most would consider this as a welcome safety feature that could prevent that someone transfers this without your authorization. There is no such feature in Bitcoin. Some wallets offer 2 factor authorization, which comes close. I am sure one can easily trick the banks double check, but they try. Or do you see this as privacy issue?
One more question. What about coast if you have a business account?

Yes, I was thinking about privacy, as there's no double check with BTC. So some people may not like it.
Regarding business accounts, they're all different with fees for everything. I guess that's how banks make the most of their income. They're cheap to individuals but expensive for businesses.

e-coinomist

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Money often costs too much.

Quote from: BitcoinHodler on February 12, 2017, 09:00:21 AM

Quote from: veleten on February 12, 2017, 08:48:07 AM

the bank transfer may be free ,but there are hidden costs included
most likely in a form of your taxes,also atm fees,account service fees and many other ways for you to pay for
one thing you have to realise-banks never ever operate without ripping you off,it is what they are made for
and a couple of years ago there was no debate about bitcoin vs bank transfer,which is best?
so bitcoin adoption is moving into right direction

what hidden fees?!
all you mentioned were clear as day fees with nothing hidden. besides where i live using an ATM doesn't have any fees if you withdraw or pay your bills with the ATM machine for example paying your electric bill with the ATM machine.
the only fee there is in an ATM is when you transfer money from one account to another and that is a fixed fee which is worth about 10 cents only.

while bitcoin has fiat and banks beat when it comes to international transfer and being your own bank it has nothing to say when it comes to day to day use and the increasing fees for the time being specially since there are not many places to spend it in/

They are not calling it "fees" but for running an account at their institution you get billed quarterly. If you are attaching BTCs like fifty cent on a Bitcoin transfer than divide your quarterly billing by 0.50 and you will recognize the difference between free and really free.
Storing cash somewhere inside a cardboard box comes for really free, no running costs. Storing BTCs same. Handing over cash, free again (just limited distances possible). Oh by the way Bitcoin at the moment cannot jump over that hurdle of local payments requiring fees the billing cannot be adjusted according to distance. Geolocating IP adresses using the distance inside a peer 2 peer setup just ... technically impossible.

boybugs18

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luckily you are living on a good country which has a service like that if only all banks in each country can provide services like that then the world would become a better place to live. However I dont think that it has no hidden charges because banks earn profit by putting fees on their services like withdrawing fee on ATM's and such.

Mometaskers

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Lucky you then. Guess it's part of their economic integration. Not sure how long it will last considering how the far-right is starting to gain power there. If I were your in situation I'd definitely use that service even if it takes a day to transfer money. Still can't beat bitcoin when sending money abroad to countries without such arrangements.

Quote from: countryfree on February 12, 2017, 07:38:00 AM

Some more details for non Europeans.

SEPA transfers are between countries from the UE (UK included) and Switzerland. I'm sure all large banks offer free transfers for individuals, when ordered online. There's only a fee if you make a transfer at the counter. I know I have to keep a minimum balance and that I must have a regular income, but requirements are low. Just below minimum wage I believe.

Also, the bank makes safety checks. I remember a substantial transfer to Spain (where I'm not living), and my bank called me to check it was really me who issued it. That could be a reason to favor BTC.

They should. Fraudsters are becoming more and more sophisticated. I wouldn't mind the bank calling me to confirm such transfers. Bitcoin might be best to ensure privacy when sending money to another address but if it does happen to be fraudulent and it got through whatever authentication is required, you won't get your money back.

BitcoinHodler

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Quote from: veleten on February 12, 2017, 08:48:07 AM

the bank transfer may be free ,but there are hidden costs included
most likely in a form of your taxes,also atm fees,account service fees and many other ways for you to pay for
one thing you have to realise-banks never ever operate without ripping you off,it is what they are made for
and a couple of years ago there was no debate about bitcoin vs bank transfer,which is best?
so bitcoin adoption is moving into right direction

what hidden fees?!
all you mentioned were clear as day fees with nothing hidden. besides where i live using an ATM doesn't have any fees if you withdraw or pay your bills with the ATM machine for example paying your electric bill with the ATM machine.
the only fee there is in an ATM is when you transfer money from one account to another and that is a fixed fee which is worth about 10 cents only.

while bitcoin has fiat and banks beat when it comes to international transfer and being your own bank it has nothing to say when it comes to day to day use and the increasing fees for the time being specially since there are not many places to spend it in/

veleten

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the bank transfer may be free ,but there are hidden costs included
most likely in a form of your taxes,also atm fees,account service fees and many other ways for you to pay for
one thing you have to realise-banks never ever operate without ripping you off,it is what they are made for
and a couple of years ago there was no debate about bitcoin vs bank transfer,which is best?
so bitcoin adoption is moving into right direction

Senor.Bla

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Quote from: countryfree on February 12, 2017, 07:38:00 AM

Some more details for non Europeans.

SEPA transfers are between countries from the UE (UK included) and Switzerland. I'm sure all large banks offer free transfers for individuals, when ordered online. There's only a fee if you make a transfer at the counter. I know I have to keep a minimum balance and that I must have a regular income, but requirements are low. Just below minimum wage I believe.

Also, the bank makes safety checks. I remember a substantial transfer to Spain (where I'm not living), and my bank called me to check it was really me who issued it. That could be a reason to favor BTC.

Why do you see the phone call to check if it was you as a point for Bitcoin? Most would consider this as a welcome safety feature that could prevent that someone transfers this without your authorization. There is no such feature in Bitcoin. Some wallets offer 2 factor authorization, which comes close. I am sure one can easily trick the banks double check, but they try. Or do you see this as privacy issue?
One more question. What about coast if you have a business account?

shield132

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Quote from: erickkyut on February 11, 2017, 10:16:43 PM

Really? Bank transfers are free and unlimited in Europe? Is it only on a specified country or it is in the whole Europe? This is my first time hearing it. But for me, it is much better to invest your money rather than to put it in banks. There are lots of things to consider such as inflation rate and withholding taxes because instead of gains, you will have loss if you put your money in the banks.

No man, situation isn't like countryfree said because I live in europe and I have to pay fees plus I have transactions limited. For example I can to pay without fee in my own currency in local banks but when I send money in usd, fee is 20$ on every transaction. Maybe he says true but it will be only in his/her country.

countryfree

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Your country may be your worst enemy

Some more details for non Europeans.

SEPA transfers are between countries from the UE (UK included) and Switzerland. I'm sure all large banks offer free transfers for individuals, when ordered online. There's only a fee if you make a transfer at the counter. I know I have to keep a minimum balance and that I must have a regular income, but requirements are low. Just below minimum wage I believe.

Also, the bank makes safety checks. I remember a substantial transfer to Spain (where I'm not living), and my bank called me to check it was really me who issued it. That could be a reason to favor BTC.

Amph

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Quote from: countryfree on February 11, 2017, 06:29:40 AM

Quote from: Amph on February 11, 2017, 01:58:18 AM

you are comparing a finished tool against a non-finished one, bitcoin still don' scale properly, when they activate segwit or hard fork to 2mb or whatever they want to do to address the scalability bitcoin will have proper fee

if you compare it to fiat and the time they need you can actually pay 10k satoshi and be very lucky that it will confirm in one dday, like sepa(actually sepa can take 3 days some time...) so 0.1 cent against free not a big deal for me

Oh, yes. This topic is just a wake-up call. I understand BTC's still in the works, but the scalability problem is taking way too long to fix, and segwit doesn't seem to be going anywhere. Rate of adoption has stalled, so I don't know what's next but ever rising fees do not look like a smart solution.

Something better must be done.

the problem with bitcoin is that everyone need to agree, you can't dictate alone, if you think about it's not so different than a council in the politic and any government out there, so much about decentralization...

Quote from: erickkyut on February 11, 2017, 10:16:43 PM

Really? Bank transfers are free and unlimited in Europe? Is it only on a specified country or it is in the whole Europe? This is my first time hearing it. But for me, it is much better to invest your money rather than to put it in banks. There are lots of things to consider such as inflation rate and withholding taxes because instead of gains, you will have loss if you put your money in the banks.

i use deutesche bank and it is free on everything not only for sepa, but deposit, withdrawals, atm etc...

Herbert2020

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Quote from: erickkyut on February 11, 2017, 10:16:43 PM

Really? Bank transfers are free and unlimited in Europe? Is it only on a specified country or it is in the whole Europe? This is my first time hearing it. But for me, it is much better to invest your money rather than to put it in banks. There are lots of things to consider such as inflation rate and withholding taxes because instead of gains, you will have loss if you put your money in the banks.

it is not just Europe. there are many other countries too, in the middle east for example. the Islamic banking is pretty good too. there are no fees for majority of methods for transferring money, and they are fast and safe sometimes as fast as 1 hour to 1 day.
and it is not the question for investment, it is the argument about how can bitcoin function as a currency when using fiat can be cheaper while bitcoin fees are growing.

e-coinomist

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Money often costs too much.

Quote from: erickkyut on February 11, 2017, 10:16:43 PM

Really? Bank transfers are free and unlimited in Europe? Is it only on a specified country or it is in the whole Europe? This is my first time hearing it. But for me, it is much better to invest your money rather than to put it in banks. There are lots of things to consider such as inflation rate and withholding taxes because instead of gains, you will have loss if you put your money in the banks.

It's still pending which wounderfull bank institution offers free money transfers. One can only hope it isn't the infamous Monte dei Paschi.
Next to some tax problematic and inflation rates there are the first negative interest rates appearing "in Europe" at least south germany, only some private small bank that mostly got rich customers who don't mind that much on a negative percent. The Joe Average depositor would freak out about something like that.

erickkyut

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Really? Bank transfers are free and unlimited in Europe? Is it only on a specified country or it is in the whole Europe? This is my first time hearing it. But for me, it is much better to invest your money rather than to put it in banks. There are lots of things to consider such as inflation rate and withholding taxes because instead of gains, you will have loss if you put your money in the banks.

ImHash

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Quote from: bg002h on February 11, 2017, 07:28:39 PM

Quote from: countryfree on February 10, 2017, 07:12:19 PM

Just a reminder.

From my European bank account, I can make a SEPA transfer to any other European bank account for free. No fee. Nothing to pay. It normally takes one and a half business day so BTC is faster, way faster, but that's not always the case because of the congestion. That used to be exceptional but it's getting the norm. The only way out is a higher fee, which makes BTC less appealing.

Sure, BTC remains the best option for extra-European transfers, and BTC still has the advantage of privacy by being difficult to link to one individual, but all miners and developers shall never forget there's competition out there. Banks, Paypal, Skrill... If BTC wants to be the best, it really needs to be the best.

Money is what money does. I want a SEPA account! Why bother with bitcoin just to get fast and cheap transactions? There's a better alternative for that. Artificially capping size of blocks limits the usefulness of the network. Bitcoin is not worth $100 in its current implementation, imho.

You are forgetting something, no body asked you to use bitcoin and no body wants your money to give the currency the value that it has currently. you can use your SEPA good for you, can you tell me if there is a safe place more than banks to store fiat?
Even when you are depending on banks to keep your money safe you are still a target for bad guys.
No one forcing us to use BTC and no one can touch our coins, we chose to use it and we are still free to use other systems as well. the point for bitcoin usefulness is in it's decentralization.

bg002h

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Quote from: countryfree on February 10, 2017, 07:12:19 PM

Just a reminder.

From my European bank account, I can make a SEPA transfer to any other European bank account for free. No fee. Nothing to pay. It normally takes one and a half business day so BTC is faster, way faster, but that's not always the case because of the congestion. That used to be exceptional but it's getting the norm. The only way out is a higher fee, which makes BTC less appealing.

Sure, BTC remains the best option for extra-European transfers, and BTC still has the advantage of privacy by being difficult to link to one individual, but all miners and developers shall never forget there's competition out there. Banks, Paypal, Skrill... If BTC wants to be the best, it really needs to be the best.

Money is what money does. I want a SEPA account! Why bother with bitcoin just to get fast and cheap transactions? There's a better alternative for that. Artificially capping size of blocks limits the usefulness of the network. Bitcoin is not worth $100 in its current implementation, imho.

e-coinomist

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Money often costs too much.

Quote from: countryfree on February 11, 2017, 06:29:40 AM

Quote from: Amph on February 11, 2017, 01:58:18 AM

you are comparing a finished tool against a non-finished one, bitcoin still don' scale properly, when they activate segwit or hard fork to 2mb or whatever they want to do to address the scalability bitcoin will have proper fee

if you compare it to fiat and the time they need you can actually pay 10k satoshi and be very lucky that it will confirm in one dday, like sepa(actually sepa can take 3 days some time...) so 0.1 cent against free not a big deal for me

Oh, yes. This topic is just a wake-up call. I understand BTC's still in the works, but the scalability problem is taking way too long to fix, and segwit doesn't seem to be going anywhere. Rate of adoption has stalled, so I don't know what's next but ever rising fees do not look like a smart solution.

Something better must be done.

It's in the makings. Until then one can just try to accomplish a Zerofees transfer. Two days later such a transfer has either been beating SEPA transfer times, or you need to do a bitcoin-cli abandontransaction $TXID and send again.
As often as it either works or you are growingly willing to add fees. My bank does that on SEPAs anyways, it's just that on the long term when 1 BTC == 10k EUR the current fee structur will loose ground against almost every payment method available out there.
Bitcoin still has to compete with others, this wount change for upcoming years.

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