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Topic: Inflation supports economic growth. Prove otherwise in this thread! - page 2. (Read 4508 times)

hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 500

The current consumer price index preferred by the Fed as the most relevant, is wrong, because it excludes products essential to consumers and is a large part of the total consumption. Food and energy - that must be close to half of the consumption for many consumers.


Say what?  Did you even read that article I posted?

http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2008/08/art1full.pdf

sr. member
Activity: 406
Merit: 250
Also, because of financialization of economy, a lot of finance is in the shadow bank industry.  So for example swaps on bitfinex is shadow banking.  So even when QE gets injected into the banking system the money gets routed to speculative activity and not routed to the "real economy".  Lending does occur but not for startup or job creation.  This is one reason why stock market has had bull run
This type of activity is the result of people moving down both the risk curve and the time to maturity curve. In other words people are taking more risks with their capital, which leads to higher asset prices, which leads to people feeling like they have more money, which hopefully leads to people spending more money, thus stimulating the economy.

I would certainly agree that people are taking on more risk as a result of QE, and asset prices certainly have gone up significantly, but it does not appear that people are spending more money as a result of this newly created wealth.
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 1005
"Let me guess.. You are an Anarcho-Capitalist who reads Rothbard or learned economics from Stefan Molyneux.  Roll Eyes"

I prefer that to be a mystery. The dicussion should be over my arguments (and yours).


Ok its hard not to make that assumption because every you post sounds like it comes straight from some AnCap handbook.

Back to the argument of "if inflation can be measured using indexes like CPI or GDP".  I say yes.  But the models do get revised.  The most accepted model comes from Bureau of Labor & Statistics

You think if the stats come from World Bank or BLS then its bunk because you don't "trust" these organizations due to personal politics.  My argument is that they're data is academic and even though BLS is a govt agency.  Doesn't imply that they do these studies w bias.  They are professional economists & statisticians so their interest would be academic not partisan.  Heres a paper where they explain how CPI is calculated if you care to read

http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2008/08/art1full.pdf

Furthermore, World Bank is not a political organization so why would they publish false data?  What is the motive?  Because they are "banksters" out to get the little guy?

Shadowstats has been debunked by a lot of economist bloggers so I dont need to argue why its bunk.  It would take a tl;dr post.  You can google it and decide yourself.  But nobody in the economics profession quote shadowstats data.

So I ask you what is more likely?  Using Occums Razor..  Is shadowstats correct or the rest of the world correct?  

I would say shadowstats is not correct in estimating inflation (in general price level), because changes in measurement (for instance changing the content in the shoppers basket) is necessary over time. You can not take a basket from forty years ago and apply it now, the product sortiment is not according to the preferences of todays consumers.

On the other hand, removing articles on the grounds that they show price volatility, is also incorrect and in fact absurd. If you want to measure the variation of price level, you can not take out the components that change.

The current consumer price index preferred by the Fed as the most relevant, is wrong, because it excludes products essential to consumers and is a large part of the total consumption. Food and energy - that must be close to half of the consumption for many consumers.

Then there is the fact that the composition of the reference never fits all consumers. The composition is different for each consumer, and varies greatly.

Then again there is some indexes (chained) that continually adjusts the basket based on the prices. It gives a lower number-

Then in some countries, price level abroad is included, the idea is that the consumer is on vacation abroad sometimes.

Adding this confusion together, and knowing that the resulting index number has profound consequences for the liabilities of the government, the suspicion is that a low number is preferred.

A fundamental question in relation to the value of money, is that you have to include more than the most common consumer goods, you need to take price of capital goods into account also.

The measurements of gross domestic product and money velocity have exactly the same fundamental problems.

That is a bouquet of reasons to say that fundamentally, it is not computable. It is possibe to measure and compute numbers, but standard economics of today is poisoned by numbers. And look at the research reports of today - differential equations and third root and whatever - when you start out with badly defined and fundamentally unmeasurable parameters, that is just hogwash.

Austrian economy does not try to compute these things, but rather start out from some axioms relation to individual's actions of choice, and builds upon that with logic. That is why I like it.

full member
Activity: 141
Merit: 100
Mortgages are harder to get now than pre bubble.  Pre bubble there was deregulation that led to sub-prime lending.  Banks got burned by that so they're cutting back on mortgages.  I had problems proving my income (self employed) when I wanted to refinance my mortgage.  But bank extended my business credit no problem. 

Also, because of financialization of economy, a lot of finance is in the shadow bank industry.  So for example swaps on bitfinex is shadow banking.  So even when QE gets injected into the banking system the money gets routed to speculative activity and not routed to the "real economy".  Lending does occur but not for startup or job creation.  This is one reason why stock market has had bull run

Printed money usually end up in financial asset than productive usage.
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 500
Inflation drives debt, and create long term bubbles. Deflation drives savings, and investment.

You got it backwards.  Inflation & deflation don't drive anything they are symptoms of the economy.  Booms & busts happen as business cycles.

The question is how do you deal w inflation & deflation?

... you're playing at semantics. You reiterated what I said. One "deals with" inflation by going in to debt. You "deal with" deflation by saving. When any entity holds the keys to the printing press of a fiat currency, inflation is the cause. Inflation is the increase in the monetary base. Devaluation of the unit of currency is the symptom.

Its not semantics.   Market forces are very difficult to manipulate.   Inflation/ deflation are measurements.   They are symptoms not causes.

Saving or spending can be reactive.  But how do you mandate that?   Can't force people to save or spend if they don't want to.   The only thing the Fed can do is raise/lower interest rates.  Govt can save or spend if Congress approves budget

Look up "semantics".

I didn't say anything about forcing behavior. I said individuals deal with inflation by taking on debt. Look how many people take out long term debt in bitcoin? No one that expects to pay it back!

The Fed does more than just manipulate interest rates. They buy debt that no one would, for prices that no one would pay. That's equivalent to printing money and distributing it to banks. That is direct inflation of the monetary base. The devaluation of currency is the symptom. The inflation is the cause. The last audit also showed huge loans to many well connected banks without repayment. More direct inflation. Even if there ever is a repayment, any loan the Fed creates is inflation. The deflation comes when it's repaid.

Buying bitcoin =/= taking out long term debt.  Taking on debt means borrowing

The Fed has been doing QE for a while.  Last time I check no inflation.  They want inflation but its just not happening

You have so little understanding of economics.  Your theoretical basis is wrong and you ignore what is actually happening in reality.  They can print as money as they want but if the money is stuck in the financial sector and never reaches the real economy then no inflation is going to happen.

There has been little/no inflation throughout QE because the economy was so bad that without QE there would likely have been deflation (negative inflation), so QE did in effect did raise the inflation rate.

Incorrect. There has been little or no inflation throughout QE because QE has made interest rates so low that lending doesn't make sense for financial institutions. You'll notice that in supposedly riskless environments such as the treasury market or excess reserves at the fed, there has been significant "loan growth" (if you can call it that) and inflation.

I agree and I will add to this,  that there are a lack of borrowers.   After bubble burst,  the private sector face uncertainty so that last thing they want to do is borrow.   They're too concerned about paying down balance sheet



This is also true, but the primary problem is that there are a lack of lenders, as shown by the fact that there's a huge shortage banks willing to offer mortgages to the average american. Businesses don't want to borrow, but consumers do and can't get it. Maybe if the consumers could get it, and the threat of a rate spike wasn't always on the horizon, businesses would be more encouraged to borrow?

Mortgages are harder to get now than pre bubble.  Pre bubble there was deregulation that led to sub-prime lending.  Banks got burned by that so they're cutting back on mortgages.  I had problems proving my income (self employed) when I wanted to refinance my mortgage.  But bank extended my business credit no problem. 

Also, because of financialization of economy, a lot of finance is in the shadow bank industry.  So for example swaps on bitfinex is shadow banking.  So even when QE gets injected into the banking system the money gets routed to speculative activity and not routed to the "real economy".  Lending does occur but not for startup or job creation.  This is one reason why stock market has had bull run
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 500
"Let me guess.. You are an Anarcho-Capitalist who reads Rothbard or learned economics from Stefan Molyneux.  Roll Eyes"

I prefer that to be a mystery. The dicussion should be over my arguments (and yours).


Ok its hard not to make that assumption because every you post sounds like it comes straight from some AnCap handbook.

Back to the argument of "if inflation can be measured using indexes like CPI or GDP".  I say yes.  But the models do get revised.  The most accepted model comes from Bureau of Labor & Statistics

You think if the stats come from World Bank or BLS then its bunk because you don't "trust" these organizations due to personal politics.  My argument is that they're data is academic and even though BLS is a govt agency.  Doesn't imply that they do these studies w bias.  They are professional economists & statisticians so their interest would be academic not partisan.  Heres a paper where they explain how CPI is calculated if you care to read

http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2008/08/art1full.pdf

Furthermore, World Bank is not a political organization so why would they publish false data?  What is the motive?  Because they are "banksters" out to get the little guy?

Shadowstats has been debunked by a lot of economist bloggers so I dont need to argue why its bunk.  It would take a tl;dr post.  You can google it and decide yourself.  But nobody in the economics profession quote shadowstats data.

So I ask you what is more likely?  Using Occums Razor..  Is shadowstats correct or the rest of the world correct?  
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
Inflation drives debt, and create long term bubbles. Deflation drives savings, and investment.

You got it backwards.  Inflation & deflation don't drive anything they are symptoms of the economy.  Booms & busts happen as business cycles.

The question is how do you deal w inflation & deflation?

... you're playing at semantics. You reiterated what I said. One "deals with" inflation by going in to debt. You "deal with" deflation by saving. When any entity holds the keys to the printing press of a fiat currency, inflation is the cause. Inflation is the increase in the monetary base. Devaluation of the unit of currency is the symptom.

Its not semantics.   Market forces are very difficult to manipulate.   Inflation/ deflation are measurements.   They are symptoms not causes.

Saving or spending can be reactive.  But how do you mandate that?   Can't force people to save or spend if they don't want to.   The only thing the Fed can do is raise/lower interest rates.  Govt can save or spend if Congress approves budget

Look up "semantics".

I didn't say anything about forcing behavior. I said individuals deal with inflation by taking on debt. Look how many people take out long term debt in bitcoin? No one that expects to pay it back!

The Fed does more than just manipulate interest rates. They buy debt that no one would, for prices that no one would pay. That's equivalent to printing money and distributing it to banks. That is direct inflation of the monetary base. The devaluation of currency is the symptom. The inflation is the cause. The last audit also showed huge loans to many well connected banks without repayment. More direct inflation. Even if there ever is a repayment, any loan the Fed creates is inflation. The deflation comes when it's repaid.

Buying bitcoin =/= taking out long term debt.  Taking on debt means borrowing

The Fed has been doing QE for a while.  Last time I check no inflation.  They want inflation but its just not happening

You have so little understanding of economics.  Your theoretical basis is wrong and you ignore what is actually happening in reality.  They can print as money as they want but if the money is stuck in the financial sector and never reaches the real economy then no inflation is going to happen.

There has been little/no inflation throughout QE because the economy was so bad that without QE there would likely have been deflation (negative inflation), so QE did in effect did raise the inflation rate.

Incorrect. There has been little or no inflation throughout QE because QE has made interest rates so low that lending doesn't make sense for financial institutions. You'll notice that in supposedly riskless environments such as the treasury market or excess reserves at the fed, there has been significant "loan growth" (if you can call it that) and inflation.

I agree and I will add to this,  that there are a lack of borrowers.   After bubble burst,  the private sector face uncertainty so that last thing they want to do is borrow.   They're too concerned about paying down balance sheet



This is also true, but the primary problem is that there are a lack of lenders, as shown by the fact that there's a huge shortage banks willing to offer mortgages to the average american. Businesses don't want to borrow, but consumers do and can't get it. Maybe if the consumers could get it, and the threat of a rate spike wasn't always on the horizon, businesses would be more encouraged to borrow?
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 500
Inflation drives debt, and create long term bubbles. Deflation drives savings, and investment.

You got it backwards.  Inflation & deflation don't drive anything they are symptoms of the economy.  Booms & busts happen as business cycles.

The question is how do you deal w inflation & deflation?

... you're playing at semantics. You reiterated what I said. One "deals with" inflation by going in to debt. You "deal with" deflation by saving. When any entity holds the keys to the printing press of a fiat currency, inflation is the cause. Inflation is the increase in the monetary base. Devaluation of the unit of currency is the symptom.

Its not semantics.   Market forces are very difficult to manipulate.   Inflation/ deflation are measurements.   They are symptoms not causes.

Saving or spending can be reactive.  But how do you mandate that?   Can't force people to save or spend if they don't want to.   The only thing the Fed can do is raise/lower interest rates.  Govt can save or spend if Congress approves budget

Look up "semantics".

I didn't say anything about forcing behavior. I said individuals deal with inflation by taking on debt. Look how many people take out long term debt in bitcoin? No one that expects to pay it back!

The Fed does more than just manipulate interest rates. They buy debt that no one would, for prices that no one would pay. That's equivalent to printing money and distributing it to banks. That is direct inflation of the monetary base. The devaluation of currency is the symptom. The inflation is the cause. The last audit also showed huge loans to many well connected banks without repayment. More direct inflation. Even if there ever is a repayment, any loan the Fed creates is inflation. The deflation comes when it's repaid.

Buying bitcoin =/= taking out long term debt.  Taking on debt means borrowing

The Fed has been doing QE for a while.  Last time I check no inflation.  They want inflation but its just not happening

You have so little understanding of economics.  Your theoretical basis is wrong and you ignore what is actually happening in reality.  They can print as money as they want but if the money is stuck in the financial sector and never reaches the real economy then no inflation is going to happen.

There has been little/no inflation throughout QE because the economy was so bad that without QE there would likely have been deflation (negative inflation), so QE did in effect did raise the inflation rate.

Incorrect. There has been little or no inflation throughout QE because QE has made interest rates so low that lending doesn't make sense for financial institutions. You'll notice that in supposedly riskless environments such as the treasury market or excess reserves at the fed, there has been significant "loan growth" (if you can call it that) and inflation.

I agree and I will add to this,  that there are a lack of borrowers.   After bubble burst,  the private sector face uncertainty so that last thing they want to do is borrow.   They're too concerned about paying down balance sheet

legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 1005
"Let me guess.. You are an Anarcho-Capitalist who reads Rothbard or learned economics from Stefan Molyneux.  Roll Eyes"

I prefer that to be a mystery. The dicussion should be over my arguments (and yours).
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 1005
twiifm: Ok not socialism, let's call it statism. The principle that some has the power to govern over others by force in violation of human rights.
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
Inflation drives debt, and create long term bubbles. Deflation drives savings, and investment.

You got it backwards.  Inflation & deflation don't drive anything they are symptoms of the economy.  Booms & busts happen as business cycles.

The question is how do you deal w inflation & deflation?

... you're playing at semantics. You reiterated what I said. One "deals with" inflation by going in to debt. You "deal with" deflation by saving. When any entity holds the keys to the printing press of a fiat currency, inflation is the cause. Inflation is the increase in the monetary base. Devaluation of the unit of currency is the symptom.

Its not semantics.   Market forces are very difficult to manipulate.   Inflation/ deflation are measurements.   They are symptoms not causes.

Saving or spending can be reactive.  But how do you mandate that?   Can't force people to save or spend if they don't want to.   The only thing the Fed can do is raise/lower interest rates.  Govt can save or spend if Congress approves budget

Look up "semantics".

I didn't say anything about forcing behavior. I said individuals deal with inflation by taking on debt. Look how many people take out long term debt in bitcoin? No one that expects to pay it back!

The Fed does more than just manipulate interest rates. They buy debt that no one would, for prices that no one would pay. That's equivalent to printing money and distributing it to banks. That is direct inflation of the monetary base. The devaluation of currency is the symptom. The inflation is the cause. The last audit also showed huge loans to many well connected banks without repayment. More direct inflation. Even if there ever is a repayment, any loan the Fed creates is inflation. The deflation comes when it's repaid.

Buying bitcoin =/= taking out long term debt.  Taking on debt means borrowing

The Fed has been doing QE for a while.  Last time I check no inflation.  They want inflation but its just not happening

You have so little understanding of economics.  Your theoretical basis is wrong and you ignore what is actually happening in reality.  They can print as money as they want but if the money is stuck in the financial sector and never reaches the real economy then no inflation is going to happen.

There has been little/no inflation throughout QE because the economy was so bad that without QE there would likely have been deflation (negative inflation), so QE did in effect did raise the inflation rate.

Incorrect. There has been little or no inflation throughout QE because QE has made interest rates so low that lending doesn't make sense for financial institutions. You'll notice that in supposedly riskless environments such as the treasury market or excess reserves at the fed, there has been significant "loan growth" (if you can call it that) and inflation.
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 500
Err no.   I'm not peddling any politics.   I'm peddling academics over armchair economics.

Molyneux uses data that supports his soapboxing.   Its not "math".  If you want learn economics from sources like that go ahead.   I don't care.   Just everyone will think you're a dumbass

I dont get the connection you make between birth rate and current recession.   Everyone knows its from deleveraging MBS's after the housing bubble burst
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 1278

Really shadowstats?   Thats where you got your numbers from?  Oh lord  Roll Eyes


You forgot to insert an argument.


He doesn't have one. He seems to regurgitate talking points from MSNBC, and has little understanding.

Ha ha wrong.  I don't follow mainstream economics.  I follow heterodox economics & MMT.   No need for me to argue shadowstats.  Just google "shadowsats debunked" and you will find many examples of why its shit

MMT modern money theory. Fuck someone, I had to unnecessarily look that up. It seems to be a variant of socialism; central planning with government intervention in the free market.


Let me guess.. You are an Anarcho-Capitalist who reads Rothbard or learned economics from Stefan Molyneux.  Roll Eyes

Central planning is everywhere and not distinct feature of Socialism.   MMT looks at the operational aspects of banking.  It has nothing to do w Socialism vs Capitalism or whatever b&w scenario you imagine

You won't get heterodox economics or MMT because theres no politics in it.   Theres no villain for you to get pissed  at.   Its just about studying the boring world of banking and trying to model the system to find weaknesses.  
Looks like you are the one peddling politics. Molyneux is about statistics, hard numbers and cause and effect. And he deals in far more than just economics, that's just a symptom of greater underlying problems.

The fundamental symptom that drives most of the current problems, including the economic ones, is the fact that the western fertility rate is too low. More people are dying than are being born, and this has been the case for about 30 years now. At the same time the baby boomers are reaching retirement age in these years. With the economic model we use (taking from those who work and giving to those who do not work) this means taxes keep going up while the benefits from those taxes become less for all of us. That's why the economy is tanking, it is mathematically unsustainable with these demographic problems.

It will take at least 50 years to reverse this trend, and it will get worse before it gets better. And that's just symptoms. The underlying causes are too complex and too longwinded to get into here. But the solution is not. The welfare system has to end. It's the only way, and it will happen against our will if we do not make the choice.

None of this is politics or personal opinion. It's just math and cause and effect.
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 500

Really shadowstats?   Thats where you got your numbers from?  Oh lord  Roll Eyes


You forgot to insert an argument.


He doesn't have one. He seems to regurgitate talking points from MSNBC, and has little understanding.

Ha ha wrong.  I don't follow mainstream economics.  I follow heterodox economics & MMT.   No need for me to argue shadowstats.  Just google "shadowsats debunked" and you will find many examples of why its shit

MMT modern money theory. Fuck someone, I had to unnecessarily look that up. It seems to be a variant of socialism; central planning with government intervention in the free market.


Let me guess.. You are an Anarcho-Capitalist who reads Rothbard or learned economics from Stefan Molyneux.  Roll Eyes

Central planning is everywhere and not distinct feature of Socialism.   MMT looks at the operational aspects of banking.  It has nothing to do w Socialism vs Capitalism or whatever b&w scenario you imagine

You won't get heterodox economics or MMT because theres no politics in it.   Theres no villain for you to get pissed  at.   Its just about studying the boring world of banking and trying to model the system to find weaknesses.  
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 1005

Really shadowstats?   Thats where you got your numbers from?  Oh lord  Roll Eyes


You forgot to insert an argument.


He doesn't have one. He seems to regurgitate talking points from MSNBC, and has little understanding.

Ha ha wrong.  I don't follow mainstream economics.  I follow heterodox economics & MMT.   No need for me to argue shadowstats.  Just google "shadowsats debunked" and you will find many examples of why its shit

MMT modern money theory. Fuck someone, I had to unnecessarily look that up. It seems to be a variant of socialism; central planning with government intervention in the free market.
sr. member
Activity: 406
Merit: 250
Inflation drives debt, and create long term bubbles. Deflation drives savings, and investment.

You got it backwards.  Inflation & deflation don't drive anything they are symptoms of the economy.  Booms & busts happen as business cycles.

The question is how do you deal w inflation & deflation?

... you're playing at semantics. You reiterated what I said. One "deals with" inflation by going in to debt. You "deal with" deflation by saving. When any entity holds the keys to the printing press of a fiat currency, inflation is the cause. Inflation is the increase in the monetary base. Devaluation of the unit of currency is the symptom.

Its not semantics.   Market forces are very difficult to manipulate.   Inflation/ deflation are measurements.   They are symptoms not causes.

Saving or spending can be reactive.  But how do you mandate that?   Can't force people to save or spend if they don't want to.   The only thing the Fed can do is raise/lower interest rates.  Govt can save or spend if Congress approves budget

Look up "semantics".

I didn't say anything about forcing behavior. I said individuals deal with inflation by taking on debt. Look how many people take out long term debt in bitcoin? No one that expects to pay it back!

The Fed does more than just manipulate interest rates. They buy debt that no one would, for prices that no one would pay. That's equivalent to printing money and distributing it to banks. That is direct inflation of the monetary base. The devaluation of currency is the symptom. The inflation is the cause. The last audit also showed huge loans to many well connected banks without repayment. More direct inflation. Even if there ever is a repayment, any loan the Fed creates is inflation. The deflation comes when it's repaid.

Buying bitcoin =/= taking out long term debt.  Taking on debt means borrowing

The Fed has been doing QE for a while.  Last time I check no inflation.  They want inflation but its just not happening

You have so little understanding of economics.  Your theoretical basis is wrong and you ignore what is actually happening in reality.  They can print as money as they want but if the money is stuck in the financial sector and never reaches the real economy then no inflation is going to happen.

There has been little/no inflation throughout QE because the economy was so bad that without QE there would likely have been deflation (negative inflation), so QE did in effect did raise the inflation rate.
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
Evenly-Distributed inflation has no effect on the economy whatsoever aside from potentially tricking people into thinking they are wealthier than they are because they are falsely comparing their wealth today, to their wealth yesterday, using different units (i.e, currency today vs. currency yesterday). Evenly-Distributed inflation is just an accounting trick and nothing more, affects nothing in real terms.

Evenly-Distributed inflation is where a certain portion of the interest rate is effectively new money being created.

What DOES have an effect on the economy is non-evenly-distributed inflation (where some people have disproportionate access to the new money creation) and manipulated interest rates,  both of which are negative for fairly obvious reasons.
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 1278
It just occurred to me that something very important is missing from this thread.

Define economic growth.
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 500

Really shadowstats?   Thats where you got your numbers from?  Oh lord  Roll Eyes


You forgot to insert an argument.


He doesn't have one. He seems to regurgitate talking points from MSNBC, and has little understanding.

Ha ha wrong.  I don't follow mainstream economics.  I follow heterodox economics & MMT.   No need for me to argue shadowstats.  Just google "shadowsats debunked" and you will find many examples of why its shit
hero member
Activity: 778
Merit: 1002

Really shadowstats?   Thats where you got your numbers from?  Oh lord  Roll Eyes


You forgot to insert an argument.


He doesn't have one. He seems to regurgitate talking points from MSNBC, and has little understanding.
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