Really shadowstats? Thats where you got your numbers from? Oh lord
You forgot to insert an argument.
Topic: Inflation supports economic growth. Prove otherwise in this thread! - page 3. (Read 4508 times)
July 10, 2014, 02:40:21 PM
Really shadowstats? Thats where you got your numbers from? Oh lord
You forgot to insert an argument.
July 10, 2014, 02:37:16 PM
Can we limit the logical fallacies? Or are you simply interested in rhetoric?
July 09, 2014, 07:37:15 PM
Koolaid huh? Yeah thats cute. Inflation is currently 2.1%. Did you pull 6% from your butt or is it based on data?
And why you keep talking about bitcoin when im talking about economics? You think you buying bitcoin will cause deflation? Or people actually prefer deflation? LOL. Theres koolaid here but im not the one drinking it
And why you keep talking about bitcoin when im talking about economics? You think you buying bitcoin will cause deflation? Or people actually prefer deflation? LOL. Theres koolaid here but im not the one drinking it
Your reading comprehension is atrocious. Go back, read over all of our ex
Inflation, if measured in the historical manner rather than however the government decides is necessary to hide the true state of the economy, is around 6%. http://www.shadowstats.com/alternate_data/inflation-charts
Really shadowstats? Thats where you got your numbers from? Oh lord
July 09, 2014, 05:21:53 PM
Koolaid huh? Yeah thats cute. Inflation is currently 2.1%. Did you pull 6% from your butt or is it based on data?
And why you keep talking about bitcoin when im talking about economics? You think you buying bitcoin will cause deflation? Or people actually prefer deflation? LOL. Theres koolaid here but im not the one drinking it
And why you keep talking about bitcoin when im talking about economics? You think you buying bitcoin will cause deflation? Or people actually prefer deflation? LOL. Theres koolaid here but im not the one drinking it
Your reading comprehension is atrocious. Go back, read over all of our ex
Inflation, if measured in the historical manner rather than however the government decides is necessary to hide the true state of the economy, is around 6%. http://www.shadowstats.com/alternate_data/inflation-charts
July 09, 2014, 04:10:03 PM
Koolaid huh? Yeah thats cute. Inflation is currently 2.1%. Did you pull 6% from your butt or is it based on data?
And why you keep talking about bitcoin when im talking about economics? You think you buying bitcoin will cause deflation? Or people actually prefer deflation? LOL. Theres koolaid here but im not the one drinking it
And why you keep talking about bitcoin when im talking about economics? You think you buying bitcoin will cause deflation? Or people actually prefer deflation? LOL. Theres koolaid here but im not the one drinking it
July 09, 2014, 03:02:57 PM
Inflation drives debt, and create long term bubbles. Deflation drives savings, and investment.
You got it backwards. Inflation & deflation don't drive anything they are symptoms of the economy. Booms & busts happen as business cycles.
The question is how do you deal w inflation & deflation?
... you're playing at semantics. You reiterated what I said. One "deals with" inflation by going in to debt. You "deal with" deflation by saving. When any entity holds the keys to the printing press of a fiat currency, inflation is the cause. Inflation is the increase in the monetary base. Devaluation of the unit of currency is the symptom.
Its not semantics. Market forces are very difficult to manipulate. Inflation/ deflation are measurements. They are symptoms not causes.
Saving or spending can be reactive. But how do you mandate that? Can't force people to save or spend if they don't want to. The only thing the Fed can do is raise/lower interest rates. Govt can save or spend if Congress approves budget
Look up "semantics".
I didn't say anything about forcing behavior. I said individuals deal with inflation by taking on debt. Look how many people take out long term debt in bitcoin? No one that expects to pay it back!
The Fed does more than just manipulate interest rates. They buy debt that no one would, for prices that no one would pay. That's equivalent to printing money and distributing it to banks. That is direct inflation of the monetary base. The devaluation of currency is the symptom. The inflation is the cause. The last audit also showed huge loans to many well connected banks without repayment. More direct inflation. Even if there ever is a repayment, any loan the Fed creates is inflation. The deflation comes when it's repaid.
Buying bitcoin =/= taking out long term debt. Taking on debt means borrowing
The Fed has been doing QE for a while. Last time I check no inflation. They want inflation but its just not happening
You have so little understanding of economics. Your theoretical basis is wrong and you ignore what is actually happening in reality. They can print as money as they want but if the money is stuck in the financial sector and never reaches the real economy then no inflation is going to happen.
You drank the koolaid.
You need to read my post before replying. I said no one is taking out BTC debt because it's deflationary. No shit borrowing = taking on debt. Try to follow along.
I never thought I'd actually come across someone who believed the government's inflation figures... and purported to know anything about money. Inflation is around 6% currently, when should be experiencing deflation currently.
July 09, 2014, 01:46:14 PM
Buying bitcoin =/= taking out long term debt. Taking on debt means borrowing
The Fed has been doing QE for a while. Last time I check no inflation. They want inflation but its just not happening
You have so little understanding of economics. Your theoretical basis is wrong and you ignore what is actually happening in reality. They can print as money as they want but if the money is stuck in the financial sector and never reaches the real economy then no inflation is going to happen.
The Fed has been doing QE for a while. Last time I check no inflation. They want inflation but its just not happening
You have so little understanding of economics. Your theoretical basis is wrong and you ignore what is actually happening in reality. They can print as money as they want but if the money is stuck in the financial sector and never reaches the real economy then no inflation is going to happen.
Welcome liquidity trap!
July 09, 2014, 01:42:58 PM
Inflation drives debt, and create long term bubbles. Deflation drives savings, and investment.
You got it backwards. Inflation & deflation don't drive anything they are symptoms of the economy. Booms & busts happen as business cycles.
The question is how do you deal w inflation & deflation?
... you're playing at semantics. You reiterated what I said. One "deals with" inflation by going in to debt. You "deal with" deflation by saving. When any entity holds the keys to the printing press of a fiat currency, inflation is the cause. Inflation is the increase in the monetary base. Devaluation of the unit of currency is the symptom.
Its not semantics. Market forces are very difficult to manipulate. Inflation/ deflation are measurements. They are symptoms not causes.
Saving or spending can be reactive. But how do you mandate that? Can't force people to save or spend if they don't want to. The only thing the Fed can do is raise/lower interest rates. Govt can save or spend if Congress approves budget
Look up "semantics".
I didn't say anything about forcing behavior. I said individuals deal with inflation by taking on debt. Look how many people take out long term debt in bitcoin? No one that expects to pay it back!
The Fed does more than just manipulate interest rates. They buy debt that no one would, for prices that no one would pay. That's equivalent to printing money and distributing it to banks. That is direct inflation of the monetary base. The devaluation of currency is the symptom. The inflation is the cause. The last audit also showed huge loans to many well connected banks without repayment. More direct inflation. Even if there ever is a repayment, any loan the Fed creates is inflation. The deflation comes when it's repaid.
Buying bitcoin =/= taking out long term debt. Taking on debt means borrowing
The Fed has been doing QE for a while. Last time I check no inflation. They want inflation but its just not happening
You have so little understanding of economics. Your theoretical basis is wrong and you ignore what is actually happening in reality. They can print as money as they want but if the money is stuck in the financial sector and never reaches the real economy then no inflation is going to happen.
Inflation is not stucked in the financial sector. It is exported out to export counties where food and housing price has gone off the roof in the last 2-3 years.
July 09, 2014, 01:40:25 PM
Inflation drives debt, and create long term bubbles. Deflation drives savings, and investment.
You got it backwards. Inflation & deflation don't drive anything they are symptoms of the economy. Booms & busts happen as business cycles.
The question is how do you deal w inflation & deflation?
... you're playing at semantics. You reiterated what I said. One "deals with" inflation by going in to debt. You "deal with" deflation by saving. When any entity holds the keys to the printing press of a fiat currency, inflation is the cause. Inflation is the increase in the monetary base. Devaluation of the unit of currency is the symptom.
Its not semantics. Market forces are very difficult to manipulate. Inflation/ deflation are measurements. They are symptoms not causes.
Saving or spending can be reactive. But how do you mandate that? Can't force people to save or spend if they don't want to. The only thing the Fed can do is raise/lower interest rates. Govt can save or spend if Congress approves budget
Look up "semantics".
I didn't say anything about forcing behavior. I said individuals deal with inflation by taking on debt. Look how many people take out long term debt in bitcoin? No one that expects to pay it back!
The Fed does more than just manipulate interest rates. They buy debt that no one would, for prices that no one would pay. That's equivalent to printing money and distributing it to banks. That is direct inflation of the monetary base. The devaluation of currency is the symptom. The inflation is the cause. The last audit also showed huge loans to many well connected banks without repayment. More direct inflation. Even if there ever is a repayment, any loan the Fed creates is inflation. The deflation comes when it's repaid.
Buying bitcoin =/= taking out long term debt. Taking on debt means borrowing
The Fed has been doing QE for a while. Last time I check no inflation. They want inflation but its just not happening
You have so little understanding of economics. Your theoretical basis is wrong and you ignore what is actually happening in reality. They can print as money as they want but if the money is stuck in the financial sector and never reaches the real economy then no inflation is going to happen.
July 09, 2014, 12:03:26 PM
Inflation drives debt, and create long term bubbles. Deflation drives savings, and investment.
You got it backwards. Inflation & deflation don't drive anything they are symptoms of the economy. Booms & busts happen as business cycles.
The question is how do you deal w inflation & deflation?
... you're playing at semantics. You reiterated what I said. One "deals with" inflation by going in to debt. You "deal with" deflation by saving. When any entity holds the keys to the printing press of a fiat currency, inflation is the cause. Inflation is the increase in the monetary base. Devaluation of the unit of currency is the symptom.
Its not semantics. Market forces are very difficult to manipulate. Inflation/ deflation are measurements. They are symptoms not causes.
Saving or spending can be reactive. But how do you mandate that? Can't force people to save or spend if they don't want to. The only thing the Fed can do is raise/lower interest rates. Govt can save or spend if Congress approves budget
Look up "semantics".
I didn't say anything about forcing behavior. I said individuals deal with inflation by taking on debt. Look how many people take out long term debt in bitcoin? No one that expects to pay it back!
The Fed does more than just manipulate interest rates. They buy debt that no one would, for prices that no one would pay. That's equivalent to printing money and distributing it to banks. That is direct inflation of the monetary base. The devaluation of currency is the symptom. The inflation is the cause. The last audit also showed huge loans to many well connected banks without repayment. More direct inflation. Even if there ever is a repayment, any loan the Fed creates is inflation. The deflation comes when it's repaid.
July 09, 2014, 06:54:18 AM
Ok, so if Satoshi declares it to be a currency that's fine. Do you think Satoshi can legally compel you to use and accept it like the state can?
You are not the first here who tries to explain to me what "fiat" really means, but you don't know that in case of the dollar, the U.S. can't legally compel you to use and accept it (the same is true in many other jurisdictions). In fact, it is the U.S. that takes onto itself an obligation to accept the U.S. dollar as a means of payment for all debts, public charges, taxes and dues.
July 09, 2014, 06:46:33 AM
The fiat system is forced upon us through law, which means that issuing a competing currency to your nation's currency is illegal. Therefore nobody can compete with the gov./central bank. Normally everyone knows that that competition in the market is a good thing, but why is money the exception? Why can the gov. issue more currency, but if the average person does it's called counterfeiting (which of course is theft)?
Actually, money is no exception. We have dollars, euros, pounds, pesos or whatever, and they are all competing with each other at an international scale (or, rather, economics are). You can hold your savings in whatever currency you see most appropriate (or profitable). Also, If I'm not mistaken, bitcoin is not considered illegal in the USA, though it is obviously not a legal tender there.
Crypto currencies are the solution to fiat! BTC was built with a limit of 21M units because Sastoshi knew the evils of inflation. The distributed nature of the system means that it essentially cannot be shutdown. Governments accepting Bitcoin is not because they wish for competition, but more because they don't have a choice. Of course most of them at this point are ignorant of the technology and will be pressured in due to demand as well.
Actually, cryptocurrencies are not very far from fiat. Both bitcoin and fiat are money since they are called so and accepted as such (no utility besides being a currency). Regarding the limit of 21M coins, it is not really an advantage since, in the first place, it won't be reached any time soon, and it can be changed afterwards if such a necessity should arise, in the second.
As to Bitcoin's generation rate, it is also a double-edged sword (there are pros and cons to this).
I'm talking about the essence of bitcoin, not about formal definitions (sorry if it wasn't evident from the start). To make things simple, think that Satoshi Nakamoto issued an official decree that made bitcoin into a money.
And I didn't understand what you meant by "fiat has nothing to do with its utility".
You said, "Actually, cryptocurrencies are not very far from fiat. Both bitcoin and fiat are money since they are called so and accepted as such (no utility besides being a currency)." So all I meant was that their utility aside from being a currency is irrelevant because that has nothing do with what is defined as fiat.
I still don't understand why you said that, since you just repeated in other words what I had said ("no utility" vs "irrelevant utility"). Actually, there is no utility besides that of being a money for both bitcoin and fiat (in its digital form indeed). But never mind!
July 09, 2014, 06:13:58 AM
i didn't say we have too much efficiency today
i believe it's not even possible to have 100% efficiency (we require failure to learn), but what we do today is try to strive for it anyway (by force, hierarchy and authority), and we're wasting resources and (literally) our time (see again, bullshit jobs) in doing so.
i believe it's not even possible to have 100% efficiency (we require failure to learn), but what we do today is try to strive for it anyway (by force, hierarchy and authority), and we're wasting resources and (literally) our time (see again, bullshit jobs) in doing so.
July 09, 2014, 01:45:34 AM
It results in misallocation of capital that will correct at some point and in addition distorts price signals, making the economy less efficient.
Not "less efficient" (in fact, too much efficiency would be a problem: http://www.scribd.com/doc/26248658/Is-Our-Monetary-Structure-a-Systemic-Cause-for-Financial-Instability-Bernard-Lietaer ), but (apart from the hamster wheel bullshit jobs) we get a major collapse or a giant "economic discharge" (i.e. war) every couple of decades.
If you view the purpose of an economy as producing prosperity and well-being for the people by using resources (natural ones, energy and labour), I wouldn't call what we currently have "efficient": many people are forced to work in slave-like conditions, we're using up natural resources at an increasing pace, polluting the life on this planet and the lives of many cannot be called prosperous or even good.
I argue that this inefficiency and other negative implications of the way our economy currently functions are largely a result of the type of money we use and propose the use of Bitcoin as a solution. I believe widespread use of cryptocurrency as a store of wealth and for payments can have very positive effects for our well-being, both for the people individually and as a whole, including non-human life. Might be a naive dream, but I'm willing to try it out.
July 08, 2014, 10:27:49 PM
Inflation drives debt, and create long term bubbles. Deflation drives savings, and investment.
You got it backwards. Inflation & deflation don't drive anything they are symptoms of the economy. Booms & busts happen as business cycles.
The question is how do you deal w inflation & deflation?
... you're playing at semantics. You reiterated what I said. One "deals with" inflation by going in to debt. You "deal with" deflation by saving. When any entity holds the keys to the printing press of a fiat currency, inflation is the cause. Inflation is the increase in the monetary base. Devaluation of the unit of currency is the symptom.
Its not semantics. Market forces are very difficult to manipulate. Inflation/ deflation are measurements. They are symptoms not causes.
Saving or spending can be reactive. But how do you mandate that? Can't force people to save or spend if they don't want to. The only thing the Fed can do is raise/lower interest rates. Govt can save or spend if Congress approves budget
July 08, 2014, 05:28:19 PM
Inflation drives debt, and create long term bubbles. Deflation drives savings, and investment.
You got it backwards. Inflation & deflation don't drive anything they are symptoms of the economy. Booms & busts happen as business cycles.
The question is how do you deal w inflation & deflation?
... you're playing at semantics. You reiterated what I said. One "deals with" inflation by going in to debt. You "deal with" deflation by saving. When any entity holds the keys to the printing press of a fiat currency, inflation is the cause. Inflation is the increase in the monetary base. Devaluation of the unit of currency is the symptom.
July 08, 2014, 05:21:44 PM
Inflation drives debt, and create long term bubbles. Deflation drives savings, and investment.
You got it backwards. Inflation & deflation don't drive anything they are symptoms of the economy. Booms & busts happen as business cycles.
The question is how do you deal w inflation & deflation?
With sound money the value of the money, which is the inverse of the prices of other goods, and the interest rate, signals to the actors what is the correct level of saving in money, the correct level of consumption and the correct level of investments.
With unsound money the signals are distorted and there is no guidance. Calculation is impossible and investments become random, the search for value is done in stead via asslicking the rulers.
July 08, 2014, 05:05:45 PM
Inflation drives debt, and create long term bubbles. Deflation drives savings, and investment.
You got it backwards. Inflation & deflation don't drive anything they are symptoms of the economy. Booms & busts happen as business cycles.
The question is how do you deal w inflation & deflation?
July 08, 2014, 04:56:37 PM
Inflation drives debt, and create long term bubbles. Deflation drives savings, and investment.
July 08, 2014, 03:37:03 PM
The fiat system is forced upon us through law, which means that issuing a competing currency to your nation's currency is illegal. Therefore nobody can compete with the gov./central bank. Normally everyone knows that that competition in the market is a good thing, but why is money the exception? Why can the gov. issue more currency, but if the average person does it's called counterfeiting (which of course is theft)?
Actually, money is no exception. We have dollars, euros, pounds, pesos or whatever, and they are all competing with each other at an international scale (or, rather, economics are). You can hold your savings in whatever currency you see most appropriate (or profitable). Also, If I'm not mistaken, bitcoin is not considered illegal in the USA, though it is obviously not a legal tender there.
Crypto currencies are the solution to fiat! BTC was built with a limit of 21M units because Sastoshi knew the evils of inflation. The distributed nature of the system means that it essentially cannot be shutdown. Governments accepting Bitcoin is not because they wish for competition, but more because they don't have a choice. Of course most of them at this point are ignorant of the technology and will be pressured in due to demand as well.
Actually, cryptocurrencies are not very far from fiat. Both bitcoin and fiat are money since they are called so and accepted as such (no utility besides being a currency). Regarding the limit of 21M coins, it is not really an advantage since, in the first place, it won't be reached any time soon, and it can be changed afterwards if such a necessity should arise, in the second.
As to Bitcoin's generation rate, it is also a double-edged sword (there are pros and cons to this).
I'm talking about the essence of bitcoin, not about formal definitions (sorry if it wasn't evident from the start). To make things simple, think that Satoshi Nakamoto issued an official decree that made bitcoin into a money.
And I didn't understand what you meant by "fiat has nothing to do with its utility".
You said, "Actually, cryptocurrencies are not very far from fiat. Both bitcoin and fiat are money since they are called so and accepted as such (no utility besides being a currency)." So all I meant was that their utility aside from being a currency is irrelevant because that has nothing do with what is defined as fiat.
Ok, so if Satoshi declares it to be a currency that's fine. Do you think Satoshi can legally compel you to use and accept it like the state can?
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