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Topic: Intellectual Property - In All Fairness! - page 103. (Read 105875 times)

sr. member
Activity: 440
Merit: 250
September 12, 2011, 02:58:20 PM
I would appreciate an explanation of why it does not matter.

If I own some land with a lake on it and you own some land where waterfowl like to nest because of that lake. And, if I drain that lake thereby driving all your waterfowl to nest elsewhere, that's too bad. You can't tell me that I have to leave the lake intact just because it will change the wildlife on your land. It's my lake. I own it. Therefore, I have complete control over it. Your rights don't extend over into my rights. If the situation were reversed, you would have the same right to keep or destroy your lake and I would simply have to deal with the consequences.
You're wasting your breath, FirstAscent.  We've already been through this - you'd have to sign a contract with him where you promise not to pollute the lake, and he promises to keep it in good condition.  I never did understand what's to stop the guys upstream pissing in the river though (in *their* property). FredericBastiat did say, at least, that polluting someone else's property is equivalent to trespass though the issue seems far from resolved:
Quote
Does someone have to own the sea as well?  And all the ocean?  Do you have to enter into a contract with people on the other side of the ocean in the event your pollution should cause damage there?
If you don't own it, and I don't own it, and nobody owns it, then who cares. I know your answer. You do care; so go homestead it, occupy it and claim it for your own, and then complain at me when I provably pollute it (equivalent to trespass).
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
September 12, 2011, 02:42:40 PM
I would appreciate an explanation of why it does not matter.

If I own some land with a lake on it and you own some land where waterfowl like to nest because of that lake. And, if I drain that lake thereby driving all your waterfowl to nest elsewhere, that's too bad. You can't tell me that I have to leave the lake intact just because it will change the wildlife on your land. It's my lake. I own it. Therefore, I have complete control over it. Your rights don't extend over into my rights. If the situation were reversed, you would have the same right to keep or destroy your lake and I would simply have to deal with the consequences.

I could say a lot on what you've just said, and perhaps I will, but I'm limited on time right now. I would like to point out however that you are not really addressing edge effects at all in your lake example. You may consult wikipedia if you wish. I will look the other way and believe your claim that you've known all along what edge effects are. Here's a hint: discontinuity.

sr. member
Activity: 504
Merit: 252
Elder Crypto God
September 12, 2011, 02:32:43 PM
I would appreciate an explanation of why it does not matter.

If I own some land with a lake on it and you own some land where waterfowl like to nest because of that lake. And, if I drain that lake thereby driving all your waterfowl to nest elsewhere, that's too bad. You can't tell me that I have to leave the lake intact just because it will change the wildlife on your land. It's my lake. I own it. Therefore, I have complete control over it. Your rights don't extend over into my rights. If the situation were reversed, you would have the same right to keep or destroy your lake and I would simply have to deal with the consequences.
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
September 12, 2011, 02:13:27 PM
Your condescension aside, my point stands. Unless I'm crossing your borders, you've got no right to complain. It doesn't matter if the usage of my land changes the wildlife on your land. Try attacking the argument head-on if you can. I'm pretty sure you can't which is why you're being so "herp derp, edge effects is complicated stuff!" Hah.

I never said edge effects were complicated to understand. I merely said you were ignorant of them. Big difference. Edge effects are a complicated process, but understanding them is not complicated.

This is an interesting statement that you have made:

It doesn't matter if the usage of my land changes the wildlife on your land.

First of all, I'm not sure the phrase 'changes the wildlife' really captures the extent of what edge effects cause, but it's one of the things, so we'll accept it for the moment. More interesting are your opening three words: "It doesn't matter...". I would appreciate an explanation of why it does not matter.
sr. member
Activity: 504
Merit: 252
Elder Crypto God
September 12, 2011, 02:02:16 PM
Obviously, you don't understand what edge effects are. It's a very specific term.

Thank you so much for reinforcing the point I have been stressing for the past week. I have repeatedly stated that individuals like you are not qualified to apply a political ideology to real world problems because you can't take your nose out of your political ideology book and learn about processes external to political ideologies. But please don't be insulted by this revelation.

Edge effects are not part of a political ideology. They're part of ecosystems, which is a subject learned by studying ecology and biology.

Actually, I do know what edge effects are. It's not a complicated concept at all. I'm not sure why you're pretending like it's something that requires a degree in biology to understand. You also don't know what books I've read so I'm not sure why you're acting like you do. I guess it just makes it easier for you to pretend that your opponents are ignorant so you don't have to actually face the fact that you're wrong. You very close to being on my ignore list if you keep addressing me personally instead of the arguments. Besides, if you think a highly educated individual like myself is incapable of applying political ideologies to the real world, you're just making my case for me. The average person isn't college educated so is even less fit to make those decisions. That's why we need libertarianism, so we only need the average person to understand basic property rights and non-aggression.

Your condescension aside, my point stands. Unless I'm crossing your borders, you've got no right to complain. It doesn't matter if the usage of my land changes the wildlife on your land. Try attacking the argument head-on if you can. I'm pretty sure you can't which is why you're being so "herp derp, edge effects is complicated stuff!" Hah.
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
September 12, 2011, 11:38:33 AM
Likewise, when I claim that the farming on your land is creating edge effects which destroy the biodiversity on my land...

So in other words, you have some use of your land that requires the use of my land? You have no right to that anymore than I have the right to build my grain silo on your land. Unless I'm directly damaging your land through some sort of border crossing, you've got no justification to tell me what I can and cannot do with my land.

By the way, can't you make your point without calling others stupid or do you always insult people that disagree with you?

Obviously, you don't understand what edge effects are. It's a very specific term.

Thank you so much for reinforcing the point I have been stressing for the past week. I have repeatedly stated that individuals like you are not qualified to apply a political ideology to real world problems because you can't take your nose out of your political ideology book and learn about processes external to political ideologies. But please don't be insulted by this revelation.

Edge effects are not part of a political ideology. They're part of ecosystems, which is a subject learned by studying ecology and biology.
sr. member
Activity: 440
Merit: 250
September 12, 2011, 11:16:39 AM
I think in his world, his "right" to own the land comes from his ability to defend what he thinks he owns.  However, as I've pointed out in a limitless number of threads, this quickly devolves into the man with the biggest gun making all the rules.

What I find funny is exactly what you've written here.  The pro-libertarians here seem displeased that we all have to obey the state - "might makes right" is a terrible principle, they expound.  However, as you say, they'll then argue that you can only own what you can defend.  Hmmm.
full member
Activity: 154
Merit: 103
September 12, 2011, 09:56:15 AM
Likewise, when I claim that the farming on your land is creating edge effects which destroy the biodiversity on my land...

So in other words, you have some use of your land that requires the use of my land? You have no right to that anymore than I have the right to build my grain silo on your land. Unless I'm directly damaging your land through some sort of border crossing, you've got no justification to tell me what I can and cannot do with my land.


You don't seem to understand the difference between magically declaring that someone has "no right" to do something and implemendation difficulties of actually being able to stop them from doing it.

bitcoin2cash's whole point is that he has abstract rights and the real world consequences of trying to implement them doesn't matter.  He talks about "his land" but if you take a real world view, land ownership comes from the State so its meaningless to assert he has rights that are more important than the State.


I think in his world, his "right" to own the land comes from his ability to defend what he thinks he owns.  However, as I've pointed out in a limitless number of threads, this quickly devolves into the man with the biggest gun making all the rules.
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
September 12, 2011, 09:51:15 AM
Likewise, when I claim that the farming on your land is creating edge effects which destroy the biodiversity on my land...

So in other words, you have some use of your land that requires the use of my land? You have no right to that anymore than I have the right to build my grain silo on your land. Unless I'm directly damaging your land through some sort of border crossing, you've got no justification to tell me what I can and cannot do with my land.


You don't seem to understand the difference between magically declaring that someone has "no right" to do something and implemendation difficulties of actually being able to stop them from doing it.

bitcoin2cash's whole point is that he has abstract rights and the real world consequences of trying to implement them doesn't matter.  He talks about "his land" but if you take a real world view, land ownership comes from the State so its meaningless to assert he has rights that are more important than the State.
full member
Activity: 154
Merit: 103
September 12, 2011, 09:32:24 AM
Likewise, when I claim that the farming on your land is creating edge effects which destroy the biodiversity on my land...

So in other words, you have some use of your land that requires the use of my land? You have no right to that anymore than I have the right to build my grain silo on your land. Unless I'm directly damaging your land through some sort of border crossing, you've got no justification to tell me what I can and cannot do with my land.


You don't seem to understand the difference between magically declaring that someone has "no right" to do something and implementation difficulties of actually being able to stop them from doing it.
sr. member
Activity: 504
Merit: 252
Elder Crypto God
September 12, 2011, 02:26:31 AM
Likewise, when I claim that the farming on your land is creating edge effects which destroy the biodiversity on my land...

So in other words, you have some use of your land that requires the use of my land? You have no right to that anymore than I have the right to build my grain silo on your land. Unless I'm directly damaging your land through some sort of border crossing, you've got no justification to tell me what I can and cannot do with my land.

By the way, can't you make your point without calling others stupid or do you always insult people that disagree with you?
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
September 11, 2011, 08:57:31 PM
I'm only allowed to use violence as proportional response to you. If you steal my shirt, I can take it back. If you fight me, I can fight back.

Really? Because although you use the NAP court, how do you know I don't use the NNNAP court?

The non-non-non-aggression-principle court?

The Not Necessarily Non Aggression Principle Court. If your claim against me hinges on NAP, obviously I'm going to select a NNNAP court. Likewise, when I claim that the farming on your land is creating edge effects which destroy the biodiversity on my land, you're obviously going to hire the WTDTERBAIWTPWTOI court.

WTDTERBAIWTPWTOI stands for "We're too dumb to even recognize biodiversity as important. We thought pollution was the only issue".
full member
Activity: 154
Merit: 103
September 11, 2011, 08:21:53 PM
Private courts. Will that business just be able to ignore the ruling? Sure, but it will make life difficult for them. Would you do business with a company that has a history of never allowing itself to be brought to justice?

Obviously the vast majority of people would, which is why our entire modern corporate world is still standing.
sr. member
Activity: 504
Merit: 252
Elder Crypto God
September 11, 2011, 07:25:34 PM
I'm only allowed to use violence as proportional response to you. If you steal my shirt, I can take it back. If you fight me, I can fight back.

Really? Because although you use the NAP court, how do you know I don't use the NNNAP court?

The non-non-non-aggression-principle court?
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
September 11, 2011, 06:01:57 PM
I'm only allowed to use violence as proportional response to you. If you steal my shirt, I can take it back. If you fight me, I can fight back.

Really? Because although you use the NAP court, how do you know I don't use the NNNAP court?
sr. member
Activity: 504
Merit: 252
Elder Crypto God
September 11, 2011, 05:59:40 PM
So wouldn't everybody just be better off going to court C in the first place?  So court C would naturally emerge as a kind of universal dispenser of justice for everybody, automatically chosen by... guess what... society!

If everyone choose to go to court C that's fine because it's still voluntary. I'm against coercion, not organization.

So when the lynchmob comes for me I'll move on to another place and abuse more people.  'cos the lynchmob can't actually lynch me 'cos you're not allowed to be violent. Right?

I'm only allowed to use violence as a proportional response to you. If you steal my shirt, I can take it back. If you fight me, I can fight back.
full member
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sr. member
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Merit: 250
September 06, 2011, 12:38:59 PM
1. A and B have a mechanism to settle this by going to court C to settle the dispute
2. A and B don't have a mechanism in place and simply go to war with each other

We'll call the courts that have a mechanism in place "legitimate courts" and we'll call the courts that don't have a mechanism in place "bandit courts". Since as you pointed out, there will be competition, who has the advantage? I'll quote Walter Block on this.
So wouldn't everybody just be better off going to court C in the first place?  So court C would naturally emerge as a kind of universal dispenser of justice for everybody, automatically chosen by... guess what... society!

If you defraud me into thinking that your restaurant is some other restaurant or that I'm buying a CD from Trent Reznor when I'm really buying it from Rent Treznor, I'll sue you in the aforementioned private courts. If you're not committing fraud, if I'm just a consumer not doing his homework, well, caveat emptor.
So when the lynchmob comes for me I'll move on to another place and abuse more people.  'cos the lynchmob can't actually lynch me 'cos you're not allowed to be violent. Right?
sr. member
Activity: 440
Merit: 250
September 06, 2011, 12:19:40 PM
I never said they were.  I'm simply pointing out it's not very accurate to say "society has decided" when most of society doesn't give a fuck.  I guess you could define "decided" to also mean "absence of a decision" because you could decide by not caring.  I suppose.

If a majority of society actually got off their asses, thought for themselves and did some critical thinking, who knows what they would actually decide?  I just don't think humanity operates that way.  There's usually a powerful minority that free-rides off of the passive acceptance of the vast majority.
Excellent point.  Most people are too ignorant and lazy to see and fix the political problems of the day.  How would such 'sheeple' ever survive, let alone thrive, in a libertarian utopia.  And I'm not spouting hyperbole, I actually like the libertarian ideal and think it *would* be a utopia in a small society.  But in the global village you'd never know who to trust, unless there was, e.g., one emergent international standard (perhaps amongst many other competing standards) for food safety & quality, perhaps with different levels (e.g. 1 to 5 stars).  And then, well, only restaurants that adhere to that standard would survive, and we'd be back to one standard for everyone - a standard, oooh, somehow chosen by, what's that word... *society*.  And all the neo-libertarians of the day would then complain and say it's not fair that we must follow that standard.
Only problem is, the path to be *that* international standard is open to whoever has the most money & power and is willing to use it, which is unlikely to be the one with the consumer's welfare at heart.  I admit the current system doesn't inspire total confidence, but at least they have to make it look like the consumer's welfare is important.
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 250
September 06, 2011, 01:19:06 AM
Not that it matters as you don't care - your ideas are more important than the consequences for other people of your ideas.

Actually, take heart. Society has decided that our view is more important than bitcoin2cash's views.

Don't kid yourself. Most people simply allow the current system to propagate itself without actually actively examining and deciding that it is what they want. Have you ever seen how Americans vote?

I'm well aware of all that you mentioned. Just because my views are often nearly opposite bitcoin2cash's does not mean my views are not well thought out or absent of independent thinking.

I never said they were.  I'm simply pointing out it's not very accurate to say "society has decided" when most of society doesn't give a fuck.  I guess you could define "decided" to also mean "absence of a decision" because you could decide by not caring.  I suppose.

If a majority of society actually got off their asses, thought for themselves and did some critical thinking, who knows what they would actually decide?  I just don't think humanity operates that way.  There's usually a powerful minority that free-rides off of the passive acceptance of the vast majority.
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