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Topic: Intellectual Property - In All Fairness! - page 89. (Read 105893 times)

legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
September 20, 2011, 12:05:55 PM
I'd like to sidestep this argument and just point out that, if I accept, for the sake of argument, that owning a nuclear bomb is analogous to pointing a gun at someone, how exactly is that a blow against libertarianism? The irony here is that we are all arguing inside the framework of libertarianism where it's assumed that, without there being an immediate threat, you have no right to act against me. You aren't arguing against that assumption. You are simply disagreeing with my claim that there isn't an immediate threat. This is really just an argument that a bunch of libertarians would have. Wink

Libertarianism is fine.  Your idea that people must sit at home waiting to die is NOT libertarianism.
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
September 20, 2011, 12:02:25 PM
I'd like to sidestep this argument and just point out that, if I accept, for the sake of argument, that owning a nuclear bomb is analogous to pointing a gun at someone, how exactly is that a blow against libertarianism? The irony here is that we are all arguing inside the framework of libertarianism where it's assumed that, without there being an immediate threat, you have no right to act against me. You aren't arguing against that assumption. You are simply disagreeing with my claim that there isn't an immediate threat. This is really just an argument that a bunch of libertarians would have. Wink

Hey, it's not just one gun pointed at one person. It's like one million guns pointed simultaneously at one million people.
sr. member
Activity: 504
Merit: 252
Elder Crypto God
September 20, 2011, 11:54:46 AM
I'd like to sidestep this argument and just point out that, if I accept, for the sake of argument, that owning a nuclear bomb is analogous to pointing a gun at someone, how exactly is that a blow against libertarianism? The irony here is that we are all arguing inside the framework of libertarianism where it's assumed that, without there being an immediate threat, you have no right to act against me. You aren't arguing against that assumption. You are simply disagreeing with my claim that there isn't an immediate threat. This is really just an argument that a bunch of libertarians would have. Wink
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
September 20, 2011, 11:53:28 AM
Each individual has their own concept of rights and none of them is the "one true concept". Where they conflict, we can debate it or we can fight over it.
Gasp!  Shock!  You're hardly suggesting... m...m...m...MightMakesRight...Huh

No, I'm not. I'm saying those exhaust all the possibilities for settling the dispute. Obviously, I don't think whoever is right is decided over violence.

They believe that even if all humanity is wiped out, human rights will live on without us.

Utter nonsense.

...snip...

Even if the world ends up as a nuclear wasteland, I would choose that over violating a single person's rights.

I agree.  Your position is utter nonsense. 
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
September 20, 2011, 11:32:31 AM
That is a really weak rebuttal, especially when you factor in how implausible your original scenario was. Do I need to remind you what the scenario was in your original rebuttal? I will. It was this: you said that it would change hands one million times, and each time, the prior owner would be killed. Actually, when we think about it, how is that an argument for ownership of nukes? I then presented to you a set of much more likely scenarios, and you then assume that your audience is stupid by suggesting that another scenario in which the nuke never gets detonated somehow renders any other scenario as not significant.

Try harder. Better yet, don't even bother. I have yet to see any theory from you or bitcoin2cash that is plausible or appears to be anything but absolutely absurd.

The original line of logic was merely to parrot the logic used in the referent parent thread. I don't claim it as valid, and I don't believe in it. It was used to demonstrate the ridiculousness of that type and line of logic (possession = intent), not to enshrine it. Reread it, I used by your logic not mine, thus a parroting.

By careful to whom you attribute logic. I clearly laid out my logic to you in my reply to you. Nowhere did I imply your scenario. Yes, I declared it a threat and likened it to one million guns pointed simultaneously at one million people, and I stand behind that, but I never would've drawn the conclusion you claim I should logically follow.

On a slightly different note, which of the following are you familiar with?

- Oklahoma city bombing
- The Unabomber
- 9/11
- Post 9/11 Anthrax mailings
- Times Square attempted bombing
- Norway shooter (and bomber)
- Terrorism in general
- School shootings
- Discontents, malcontents and psychos, in general
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 250
September 20, 2011, 11:16:56 AM
That is a really weak rebuttal, especially when you factor in how implausible your original scenario was. Do I need to remind you what the scenario was in your original rebuttal? I will. It was this: you said that it would change hands one million times, and each time, the prior owner would be killed. Actually, when we think about it, how is that an argument for ownership of nukes? I then presented to you a set of much more likely scenarios, and you then assume that your audience is stupid by suggesting that another scenario in which the nuke never gets detonated somehow renders any other scenario as not significant.

Try harder. Better yet, don't even bother. I have yet to see any theory from you or bitcoin2cash that is plausible or appears to be anything but absolutely absurd.

The original line of logic was merely to parrot the logic used in the referent parent thread. I don't claim it as valid, and I don't believe in it. It was used to demonstrate the ridiculousness of that type and line of logic (possession = intent), not to enshrine it. Reread it, I used by your logic not mine, thus a parroting.
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
September 20, 2011, 11:07:05 AM
Why do you think the chances of the new owner disarming the nuke to be zero? That's the first fallacy of your silly argument.

The second fallacy: Let's say, that it's not zero, but one in one million, for the sake of argument. Why would each successive owner instead not choose to either have nearly impregnable security guarding the nuke, or more likely, simply not advertise it's existence, thus ensuring no further exchange?

The third fallacy: you assume the nuke is never detonated as it changes hands. But consider if it does. In that case, the total death toll is all that died in your scenario plus the toll from its detonation.

I'll leave you to ponder the second and third fallacies on your own. Let's revisit the first fallacy. You seem to be indicating that the chance of disarmament is zero upon each exchange of ownership. Assuming that to have a grain of truth to it, then it follows that increasing law enforcement would increase the chance of disarmament from zero to some higher number, as that is generally the case when law enforcement confiscates a gun from a criminal who is waving it about pointing it at people. Now, I can hear it coming: you're going to say that increasing law enforcement engaging in the act of confiscation will increase the chance of it detonating as the owner strives to protect his ownership of the weapon. However, if we examine the behavior of criminals, (cartels, etc.), we can see that owners of weapons generally don't discriminate between law enforcement or other criminals when they are being subdued - they will threaten use of the weapon in either case. Therefore, it stands to reason that the best course of action is to limit the proliferation of such weapons in the first place.

If we're going to include all plausible scenarios, then we have to include the one in which the nuke never gets detonated and the uses beyond defense are various. I'm not a statistician and I don't know of many that could conclude with any degree of accuracy what the possible outcomes of complex scenarios might be. We've been living with nukes for a while now, and I'm unaware of any "accidental" detonations lately. To assume that the Non-Proliferation treaty is the sole cause of that "safety" record or that there couldn't be other ways of treating the situation is presumptuous.

That is a really weak rebuttal, especially when you factor in how implausible your original scenario was. Do I need to remind you what the scenario was in your original rebuttal? I will. It was this: you said that it would change hands one million times, and each time, the prior owner would be killed. Actually, when we think about it, how is that an argument for ownership of nukes? I then presented to you a set of much more likely scenarios, and you then assume that your audience is stupid by suggesting that another scenario in which the nuke never gets detonated somehow renders any other scenario as not significant.

Try harder. Better yet, don't even bother. I have yet to see any theory from you or bitcoin2cash that is plausible or appears to be anything but absolutely absurd.
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 250
September 20, 2011, 10:35:30 AM
I think *you* know better.  We're talking specifically about conflicting claims of ownership or conflicting claimed rights here, and how such conflicts should be resolved.  I claim you may not possess a nuclear weapon in my vicinity, you claim you may.  Neither of us has the "one true concept" and since the debate has not yet produced a concession from either side, we must fight it out.  If that's not MightMakesRight then I haven't understood the meaning of those three words; please enlighten me.

As things are I'd allow you to exist but, in a libertarian world, the moment you sought to bring a nuclear weapon within my vicinity, I would seek to destroy you and disarm the weapon (though I'm no expert on that).  (edit: if it's not clear, my justification is that you are curtailing my right to a peaceful and tranquil existence).

I'd be nervous if you did it even now, but at least I can somehow rely on the NPT and assume you were an authorised expert.  Having said that, I'd probably high-tail it out of there anyway... just to be on the safe side.

I do know better and so do you, but I'll play along for the moment. b2c believes in the NAP. He would not aggress another unless he was threatened or aggressed first. "Might makes right", if acting independent of the NAP, indicates that you can aggress for any reason, regardless of the individual rights of others, and solely because of your superior strength.
sr. member
Activity: 504
Merit: 252
Elder Crypto God
September 20, 2011, 10:30:41 AM
Each individual has their own concept of rights and none of them is the "one true concept". Where they conflict, we can debate it or we can fight over it.
Gasp!  Shock!  You're hardly suggesting... m...m...m...MightMakesRight...Huh

No, I'm not. I'm saying those exhaust all the possibilities for settling the dispute. Obviously, I don't think whoever is right is decided over violence.

They believe that even if all humanity is wiped out, human rights will live on without us.

Utter nonsense.
sr. member
Activity: 440
Merit: 250
September 20, 2011, 10:05:09 AM
You know better. b2c is claiming if you're the rightful owner you can defend you and your property. Now who has the facilities of a 4-year old?

I think *you* know better.  We're talking specifically about conflicting claims of ownership or conflicting claimed rights here, and how such conflicts should be resolved.  I claim you may not possess a nuclear weapon in my vicinity, you claim you may.  Neither of us has the "one true concept" and since the debate has not yet produced a concession from either side, we must fight it out.  If that's not MightMakesRight then I haven't understood the meaning of those three words; please enlighten me.

As things are I'd allow you to exist but, in a libertarian world, the moment you sought to bring a nuclear weapon within my vicinity, I would seek to destroy you and disarm the weapon (though I'm no expert on that).  (edit: if it's not clear, my justification is that you are curtailing my right to a peaceful and tranquil existence).

I'd be nervous if you did it even now, but at least I can somehow rely on the NPT and assume you were an authorised expert.  Having said that, I'd probably high-tail it out of there anyway... just to be on the safe side.
sr. member
Activity: 440
Merit: 250
September 20, 2011, 09:54:48 AM

Let's assume I'm a nuclear bomb engineer. [...] That person who killed me, then owns the bomb.

Each individual has their own concept of rights and none of them is the "one true concept". Where they conflict, we can debate it or we can fight over it.

So if we take these two together we can see that whoever wins the fight for ownership becomes the new legitimate owner.  MightMakesRight if ever there was such a thing.  Am I interpreting this correctly, or do you two disagree with each other on this point?
sr. member
Activity: 440
Merit: 250
September 20, 2011, 09:46:01 AM
We've been living with nukes for a while now, and I'm unaware of any "accidental" detonations lately. To assume that the Non-Proliferation treaty is the sole cause of that "safety" record or that there couldn't be other ways of treating the situation is presumptuous.
That's BECAUSE the people handling them are [highly] qualified nuclear engineers and scientists.  It seems you would have them handled by anyone with enough money to buy one, as long as they didn't seem suicidal or crackpot.
The non-proliferation treaty helps keep nukes only under the control of organisations which possess the expertise to handle them correctly.  But if all the nuclear engineers suddenly disappeared tomorrow, then I'd expect a few accidental detonations pretty soon, treaty or not.
sr. member
Activity: 440
Merit: 250
September 20, 2011, 09:38:45 AM
Is possession of a nuke 'intent equivalent' to the threatening act of pointing a gun at another person?
I would say so, yes.  A gun or a knife is cheap and, at least the knife, easily available; AND they have legitimate personal defence uses, apart from being useful for chopping carrots - again, that's just the knife, unless we're talking about bayonets :-)   A nuclear has no legitimate personal defence use.  Anyone that is willing to go to the extraordinary lengths, expense, and personal danger, required to obtain a nuclear weapon, must be assumed to have an agenda specifying it's eventual detonation.
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 250
September 20, 2011, 09:35:49 AM
Why do you think the chances of the new owner disarming the nuke to be zero? That's the first fallacy of your silly argument.

The second fallacy: Let's say, that it's not zero, but one in one million, for the sake of argument. Why would each successive owner instead not choose to either have nearly impregnable security guarding the nuke, or more likely, simply not advertise it's existence, thus ensuring no further exchange?

The third fallacy: you assume the nuke is never detonated as it changes hands. But consider if it does. In that case, the total death toll is all that died in your scenario plus the toll from its detonation.

I'll leave you to ponder the second and third fallacies on your own. Let's revisit the first fallacy. You seem to be indicating that the chance of disarmament is zero upon each exchange of ownership. Assuming that to have a grain of truth to it, then it follows that increasing law enforcement would increase the chance of disarmament from zero to some higher number, as that is generally the case when law enforcement confiscates a gun from a criminal who is waving it about pointing it at people. Now, I can hear it coming: you're going to say that increasing law enforcement engaging in the act of confiscation will increase the chance of it detonating as the owner strives to protect his ownership of the weapon. However, if we examine the behavior of criminals, (cartels, etc.), we can see that owners of weapons generally don't discriminate between law enforcement or other criminals when they are being subdued - they will threaten use of the weapon in either case. Therefore, it stands to reason that the best course of action is to limit the proliferation of such weapons in the first place.

If we're going to include all plausible scenarios, then we have to include the one in which the nuke never gets detonated and the uses beyond defense are various. I'm not a statistician and I don't know of many that could conclude with any degree of accuracy what the possible outcomes of complex scenarios might be. We've been living with nukes for a while now, and I'm unaware of any "accidental" detonations lately. To assume that the Non-Proliferation treaty is the sole cause of that "safety" record or that there couldn't be other ways of treating the situation is presumptuous.
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 250
September 20, 2011, 09:28:49 AM
Each individual has their own concept of rights and none of them is the "one true concept". Where they conflict, we can debate it or we can fight over it.
Gasp!  Shock!  You're hardly suggesting... m...m...m...MightMakesRight...Huh

hahhahhahahhahahhah!  ZING!  Got him!

You know better. b2c is claiming if you're the rightful owner you can defend you and your property. Now who has the facilities of a 4-year old?
full member
Activity: 154
Merit: 103
September 20, 2011, 08:08:55 AM
Each individual has their own concept of rights and none of them is the "one true concept". Where they conflict, we can debate it or we can fight over it.
Gasp!  Shock!  You're hardly suggesting... m...m...m...MightMakesRight...Huh

hahhahhahahhahahhah!  ZING!  Got him!
full member
Activity: 154
Merit: 103
September 20, 2011, 08:05:42 AM
Um, no they can't.

You have to aim a gun directly at him and be within a relatively miniscule distance to kill him with it.  You can only kill one person at a time with it.

A nuke need not be aimed and it can kill anyone and anything within tens of miles immediately, and anyone and anything within hundreds of miles over time.

Can you make a law that measures intent,

It has nothing to do with measuring intent and everything to do with measuring the damage/danger potential of the regulated item.

99.999% of people have no ill intent in owning a lion, but there are damn good reasons for not allowing it in a suburban neighborhood.
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
September 20, 2011, 03:15:33 AM
The infrastructure didn't exist until it did, of course; same as the government, motivation and the history behind all of it. What's to say in a "Libertopia" a similar scenario or provision couldn't come about?
It may well come about, but the problem is you advocate a person's liberty above all else - and that's liberty for everyone, including the crackpots.  Your suggestion would probably prevent nukes getting into my hands, and your hands and Hawker's hands - we might go to WalMart, you know, for groceries and a nuke, and they'd say "Oh, Mr. X said I couldn't sell nukes" and we'd go "Aww, shucks, I really just wanted to spend my life's savings so as to send one into the sun, you know, just for kicks" and that'd be the end of that.  (caveat: I still haven't understood who, exactly, would fulfil the role of Mr X).

And, you know, in a certain sense, you probably wouldn't even need the regulations for the likes of us.  We'd be self-regulating.  Damn, I sure don't want a nuclear weapon in my back yard, how about you?

But the crackpots might be a little more determined.  They might travel far and wide.  Just in the hope of winning out, they might be willing to meet with unsavoury people in unsavoury places - you know, the kind of places where children slave under the watchful eye of an armed guard to mine the right ore.  The regulation exists for the crackpots.

Now you might well convince the whole world that libertarianism would be a good thing, and the whole world might well convert.  But just one crackpot, with one nuke, in one city, and the whole world will string you up on its way to the polls to elect a new government, and all your noble ideas will end up as vulture shit.  You might stop some crackpots, or even most, but you'll never stop them all.


Exactly.  The thing is, Fred and B2C don't care about the consequences.   They believe that even if all humanity is wiped out, human rights will live on without us.  

...snip...

Even if the world ends up as a nuclear wasteland, I would choose that over violating a single person's rights.

See what I mean? 
sr. member
Activity: 440
Merit: 250
September 20, 2011, 03:05:50 AM
The infrastructure didn't exist until it did, of course; same as the government, motivation and the history behind all of it. What's to say in a "Libertopia" a similar scenario or provision couldn't come about?
It may well come about, but the problem is you advocate a person's liberty above all else - and that's liberty for everyone, including the crackpots.  Your suggestion would probably prevent nukes getting into my hands, and your hands and Hawker's hands - we might go to WalMart, you know, for groceries and a nuke, and they'd say "Oh, Mr. X said I couldn't sell nukes" and we'd go "Aww, shucks, I really just wanted to spend my life's savings so as to send one into the sun, you know, just for kicks" and that'd be the end of that.  (caveat: I still haven't understood who, exactly, would fulfil the role of Mr X).

And, you know, in a certain sense, you probably wouldn't even need the regulations for the likes of us.  We'd be self-regulating.  Damn, I sure don't want a nuclear weapon in my back yard, how about you?

But the crackpots might be a little more determined.  They might travel far and wide.  Just in the hope of winning out, they might be willing to meet with unsavoury people in unsavoury places - you know, the kind of places where children slave under the watchful eye of an armed guard to mine the right ore.  The regulation exists for the crackpots.

Now you might well convince the whole world that libertarianism would be a good thing, and the whole world might well convert.  But just one crackpot, with one nuke, in one city, and the whole world will string you up on its way to the polls to elect a new government, and all your noble ideas will end up as vulture shit.  You might stop some crackpots, or even most, but you'll never stop them all.
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
September 20, 2011, 02:14:44 AM
So yes, wanting possession of a nuke means you have to be stopped.  Once you have possession, then the damage is done.  Either you kill your neighbours or you don't - its your call once you have a nuke as you cannot be stopped.

Better get to stopping those states which own nukes, then.

That's why we have a Non Proliferation Treaty.  Its working well; the number of nukes is falling and those that remain are kept under secure storage whereby there is never one guy able to detonate one and accidental detonations are impossible.

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