Topic: intersango bitcoin withdraw not possible? (no fiat involved) - page 2. (Read 10135 times)

Hello

I'm also not able to withdraw bitcoins and are planning a small claims action against them.

Has anyone filed one yet?

Apart from filing police fraud case, did you file a companies house fraud report? We need to make sure they don't file for insolvency and I believe they will investigate their reports, returns etc. So once they go under the magnifying glass, they will find any abnormalities.

Link to companies house fraud page:
http://www.companieshouse.gov.uk/infoAndGuide/reportingFraud.shtml

https://www.gov.uk/complain-about-a-limited-company

http://www.bis.gov.uk/insolvency/Companies/investigations-hotline

What do you guys think?

I think we all must complain as numbers usually prompt action.  This is fraud whichever way you look and I'll be happy with a prison sentence if i can't reclaim my money.  They haven't filed for insolvency have they? So where is the money

Me, being Dutch also, living in the States, had many coins in Intersango. Let me know what you think about some action.
Thinking file a case in the UK is the only option.
Amir blames Patrick.

jc

Any way after such a long time it probably wont work any more

Just an update on recovery of debt via the UK small claims court.
The sum involved has to be under £3000. You also have to have proof that
a) you have a contract with them for the amount you claim and b) that you
have written to them (Intersango) asking for your money back. 

1. You can file it to London police like me and some others did. I believe repeated filing calls attention.
The procedure is here:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.5539367

When asked about the lose in Pound Sterling, scine 100% of my lose are asset (not cash), I filled in my total lose converted to Pound Sterling in market price.

The police has obligation to protect people's asset, be it cash or other valuable asset that has a price tag on it (bitcoin). I watched the latest youtube video of the deceased Autumn Redtke, a U.S. entrepreneur, who says virtual goods, including armor and weapons you obtained in computer games, are lawfully recognized as such asset - perhaps in U.S.. So bitcoin is 10 times more valid and more liquid than that. We are doing nothing illegal and we lost asset to other illegal practise, the common sense is that police has no reason to turn us down.

2. Consult a laywer (especially U.K. laywer or a country with a law system inherited from U.K.) or anyone knowledgeable about possible next-actions (and share with others here).

3. Visit other governmental websites, obtain the how-to knowlege of how this cases are commonly dealt. e.g House of Company and publish your learning.

4. Not accepting the lose and moan over it unless you learned how the system works. Be pro-active.

5. If we have to accept the lose, make sure the relative names are properly tainted in public so that less people fall  again. e.g. if an adult  is a fraud, addressing him so is not slandering but a social service.

That's my understanding.

If I have learned one thing, it is that the Law is not Justice, and Justice is not the Law.

"If customer funds aren't made available, they are liable to go to jail for embezzlement."

I will read up on that. Until now I'd assumed that only bitcoin was at risk here. 

I *think* that in the UK, if less than £500 is involved, there is a cheaper route through the
courts to recover money - IIRC for over £500 you need to go via the High Court. If nothing else,
it may stop the assets being seized by the crown. Something else to read up on.

I had £400 left in my account with them and i think i still had 1.6 coins as well. Wondering how to proceed next.

I have been transparent about my progress. I had hoped others reveal their progress too, and assumed the silence as there be no real progress (reasonable). Talking about transparency and cooperation, in fact, I find it is difficult to get trusted to report case for other customers altogether. My first attempt was to file it in Poland (physically, not online): 5 people are contacted and I failed to get any one on my boat in time. So this time when I file it in London (ActionFraud) I instead decided that it is better for everybody to file for themselves.

Did you file a case in ActionFraud mentioned above? I think filing it on everyone's own  filing on the same website has the additional benifit of calling attention, since they implied they have a big pool of reports and they can only procees a few of the fraud report (hustlers should be happy to read this information: the police are busy working on something else).

I have not yet given up on legal action. I am afraid I am not the best person to start: as I explained before, I never lived in the first world, there are too many things totally new to me, and I am rather far away (China). But I am ready to jump on other's boat: I would like to share cost with others if someone can start the process, find an agent to talk about the issue, figure out to do list and proceed on actions.

I am not a law man. It is of my common sense that law has more means to do justice than taking away 2 pounds to the crown.

AFAIK, they can claim insolvency but customer funds must be made available. If customer funds aren't made available, they are liable to go to jail for embezzlement. I don't think being an LLC has any matter regarding deposits and whatnot.

"So I answered your 'confusion' but may I know why do you think Patrick's asset is not going to be hurt?"

I am thinking about the bankruptcy route for recovery of assets. On other threads the intention to pursue
all three founders of the company is discussed, and they may be successful. I have not seen any references
to case numbers, and until I see these, it is difficult to find out how far that has progressed.

So, back to the civil action route - IANAL BTW.

If these guys had any business sense, they should have gone public as soon as they knew the company was
insolvent, perhaps in June 2013 when the accounts were due. (I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt here)

At that time they might have avoided bankruptcy by offering the depositors say 40 cents on the dollar. Do not
take that literally! Now there may be nothing for us after due bills are paid, and the lawyers and accountants
get paid. The reason I say this is that they seem to be willing to let Intersango get delisted and have the assets
seized by the crown. The intersango business seems to be hosted in southern England, their bank account is in
Poland, and the people are in Spain, the USA, and Europe. I doubt there is anything worth seizing in the UK.

Intersango is a limited liability company. That means that not only are the personal assets of the directors
protected under law, but that they can use the assets of Intersango to pay for any legal action. Patrick may have
been Chairman, but he seems to have no right in law to direct the actions of the company (as would be the case
for a Director ie Amir).

The company has to file for bankruptcy as far as I can tell, and I have no knowledge of whether the company owes
a bank any money, or has any other financial obligations, so it is difficult to know how this would play out. I'm hoping
that the Intersango three still keeps an eye on these boards, because getting them to respond probably offers the
best hope of any recovery.   

 

Deception doesn't have to involve fiat money. e.g. deception with passport is deception, with or without money. I don't see why assets can't merit deception. I personally did not say bitcoin is money. It is an asset on which we speculate that may become money. Since paltry as the weapons and amors you got in World of Warcraft is considered asset and lawfully protected on the merit that players laboured to obtain it, I don't see why a commodity (bitcoin) widely accepted in the world not counting as asset. If someone says they are to buy gold from me, I give the gold and he disappared, can the police say I am not deceived because no fiat money was paid so far? If ths man instead pays me one Pound for a block of gold before he disappears, will the police say "now your case merit a deception because One Pound of fiat is involved"?

It is not the case that he said I cannot pay your money, it is that the company and website disappared with the money. I am really surprised that you think this is not deception. You asked me not to shoot the messenger, but what you said is simply against my common sense. All these: accepting deposite when withdraw is not possible, fake message of system powered down, and not disclosing the fact of insolvence when they know it. Hell, someone disappeared with a promise-to-pay, and you ask where is the deception. Please other members post to confirm whether or not I am just experiencing a huge culture shock.

There are only two persons who made public big claims, me and icicle. You ask that why do someone "deposite" 30+ coins into an exchange that at any time can only offer to trade 20 bitcoins, the answer is I did not know it was so until today you told me. Admittedly I am far less resourceful and informed as you are, but isn't that the characteristic of victims? I cannot speak for her but to prove my own claim, my biggest deposites are the two following:


The coins, as I track on blockchian, with following transactions, went to multiple addresses after deposited, and most of these addressess show 0BTC as final. If I track further, I am perhaps tracking other customer's wallet, so I stopped in 5 rounds.

So I answered your 'confusion' but may I know why do you think Patrick's asset is not going to be hurt? Is it because Amir is a public figure and Patrick isn't? Saying only Amir's asset at risk is also against my common sense.

Just to be clear, I will list the possibilities that I see:

1. Intersango does nothing, gets delisted, and all their assets become the property of the crown.

2. The creditors, including me, start bankruptcy proceedings.

3. Intersango somehow comes back online.

I do not see a criminal fraud investigation assisting in any way, for reasons stated below.

I see 2. as the most likely. Amir seems to be the only one whose assets might be directly at risk,
and even he is protected by the limitations on liability of the company. Put bluntly, unless there
are company assets to be seized, there is no point in starting bankruptcy proceedings.

There may or may not be assets in the form of money and BTC. I seemed to be one of a few
active traders, and had almost no euro and bitcoin in the lowish single figures in my account.
I seem to recall that at most 20 bitcoin were shown as available for purchase, so forgive me
if I seem skeptical regarding some of the claims made here.

Aside from those, the only visible assets are the site's software, probably totally dependent on
Amir to maintain, and the Intersango name and business model. The business model got broken
when the UK bank account got pulled, so a sale of the business is unlikely to net very much.

Looking at the last deposit I made with Intersango, if I was paid for my btc at that rate, I am
perhaps owed 25 euro. The current value of my bitcoins is perhaps x100 in round figures so
my recovery would depend on convincing the receiver/administrator that I have a case for the
higher figure. With no legal history, that may be difficult.

As for the possibility of success with a fraud investigation, I have yet to see a good case being made.
Begin with this definition: 'Obtaining money by deception'

Accepting, for the moment that bitcoin is money, where is the deception?

That's my opinion, because I did it for a financial investment and bitcoin in the current decade is an investment scheme. (WE are investing on the possibility it becomes a currency by 2020, at the current moment we are doing it for digital asset, that's my reading.)



When I deposited the coins into my empty account, I deposite with bitcoins that I bought elsewhere at a recent price, intending to sell them. So I converted that cost to sterlings and filled in the number. But, perhaps even your a few pounds look bigger to the police than mine tens of thouands, because I file for lose of asset and you file for lose of cash investment. Or you can fill in the current value of your asset and explain in a comment? You can refer to my case if you like, I just sent my case number to you in private message.

I have bitcoins at Intersango that I can't reach anymore too and a withdraw request that was never carried out and an unanswered support ticket.
I wanted to report the fraud the URL :
http://www.actionfraud.police.uk/report_fraud

according to zhangweiwu the following option is the best choice:
- Fraud to do with a financial investment, e.g. purchasing stocks or shares, a mortgage or an investment scheme

But if I do that I have to fill in fields about the money I spend (in pounds, estimated is all right too they say) and how much I got back.

Some questions about that:

Did anyone encounter those fields too?
If I can't avoid them: If I fill in what I really spend it will be a lot less then what the coins are worth now. And they ask for a date. So you only can fill in the lower fiat value of the past.
Did anyone had to handle this or am I in the wrong path in the report.

I expect they moved money away in the two year's span. If it were two years ago, by the time of this asset table, suing them for liability isn't a dead-end, because when you "deposite" money into Intersango, you are the creditor, and the company should pay your credit with current asset, not with net asset.

If the information can be obtained easily, I wonder if the same should be done to all bitcoin businesses in operation, for the benifit of the community. Studies of Mark K.'s personality and background only surfaced in the aftermath, such background study should be done before.

Since you have the printout, can you post so that I can attach it to my fraud report? I perfer if you could file a fraud report yourself too (Action Fraud) if you are a customer, and attach the information. Having there business closed and the deed done, Patrick and Amir have no incentive to accuse you for exposing the record.

To my common sense, any evidence of Fraud could get everything siezed and his personal assets could be at stake. that means not limiting to the 2 pound the company registered with.


I hope I can spare more time on how U.K. system works. Perhaps it is easy, as quoted, but there is a huge culture gap to cross. As much as I want to be an law-abiding citizen, I do not live in the first world.

I had a look at the printout from Companies House.

There were initially three shareholders, now only two: Patrick and Amir.
Each has one share, value one pound.

Amir is the sole director of the company.

The registered address is a shell, AFAICT.

Intersango is a Limited Company, and "[T]he directors shall be empowered (whether expressly or implicitly) to exercise in pursuance of its objects and powers all of the borrowing powers of the Company," ......

It appears that the directors, officers and auditors have the right of indemnity.

Hence suing the company is likely to enrich only the lawyers, IMHO.

Abbreviated balance sheet as at 30 June 2012 (latest BS)
Current assets £254680
Creditors £(£252,133)

Total net assets £2547

The latest document is dated 21/01/2014 and is a notice from Companies House advising that
unless cause is shown to the contrary, the company will be struck off on21/4/2014
NB: Upon dissolution all property and rights vested in, or held in trust for, the company are
deemed to be bona vacantia, and accordinly will belong to the crown.

Please do not shoot the messenger.




 

Today I received an email titled "Fraud Confirmed". The content is an auto-generated message, that if investigation has any progress they would let me know, plus that if they don't inform me, then there is no progress (infer that "don't slow us down by checking").


Thanks a lot! I knew Selachii LLP is representing lots of people to sue MtGox, but I was vainly waiting for them to publish an online form. Thanks to you I just learned they are asking people to register by sending them email! A very inefficient way to handle multitudes of clients. I just emailed them now.

Thank you zhangweiwu. I have filed a report as well. I am sorry not having much time to investigate very deeply in these matters currently, due to impending deadlines. I have found out that first consults with civil lawyers tend to be free here in the Netherlands, but I am simply too busy to sacrifice half a day at the moment. But let's see how this develops for now and second half of the month should be better.

btw, since you also had coins in mtgox, I trust you have wrote an email here?

http://www.selachii.co.uk/solicitors-blog/bitcoin-mt-gox-class-action-update/

Deadline is 4pm GMT Friday...

The shorter URL I was redirected to is:
http://www.actionfraud.police.uk/report_fraud

1. Remember don't select "Benifit, Tax or Passport". The Intersango is not a tax fraud, benifit fraud or passport fraud, and Action Fraud site doesn't deal the 3 cases.

2. When selecting Fraud Type, none of the default option seem fit. You can click the last option "give me more options" and this one in the expanded option list seem fit to me:
- Fraud to do with a financial investment, e.g. purchasing stocks or shares, a mortgage or an investment scheme

3. When an address of the fraud is needed, the postal code of 3rd floor, 14 Hangover Street, London, as I looked up, is "W1S 1YH "

I reported lose of bitcoins, but lose of fiat may call more attention? Here is what I reported, in case you want to adjust for your case and report yours:


Surprising to me, the reporting didn't ask for my passport or proof that I exist. Still, I am ready to submit these information. I also forgot to add any informatin of Patrick himself, you can add that part if you want. The combination of U.S.A. owner, British company and Poland bank account must be suspecious enough to call attentio to the officers, but I forgot to address this point and submitted.

Using "digital asset" instead of "digital currency" is intentional, because police vowed to protect people's asset, and digital currency (including in-game asset) are recognized as asset (in many countries, not sure U.K.). We are not asking them to admit Bitcoin as a currency in order to start their work. My naïve understanding is that the police face the dilemma whether or not recognize bitcoin as a currency only when we are buying things with it, so the Intersango case doesn't challange their idea of currency and I wish to address it is their duty after all. This one only my opinion, not a suggestion to everyone.

Thanks to you all for providing the above information. Much appreciated.

I notice today intersango.com is down (was fine yesterday) - the final nail in the coffin?