Author

Topic: [IOTA] IOTA Speculation - page 107. (Read 171575 times)

member
Activity: 62
Merit: 10
June 21, 2016, 06:52:26 PM

IMO, we should follow the spirit of Iota and use https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oracle_machine to solve the problem. I can create such oracle and you/someone will enter all available information. The oracle will give an answer on a simple question, we just need to agree on doing as the oracle says.

cool, let's do that! Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1073
Merit: 1000
June 21, 2016, 04:42:22 PM
I still don't understand why people would exchange an amount of BTC they consider "important" without an escrow. Sure it makes it a little more difficult to complete the transaction, but would you want your BTC gone over going through the small difficulty?
sr. member
Activity: 1188
Merit: 251
June 21, 2016, 04:06:55 PM
legendary
Activity: 2142
Merit: 1010
Newbie
June 20, 2016, 10:08:48 AM
How are the cases be fairly "judged"? What "clear and convincing proof" will be enough as evidence to convince "beyond a reasonable doubt" the right of the self-proclaimed buyers against the sellers (thus considered "scammers")?

IMO, we should follow the spirit of Iota and use https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oracle_machine to solve the problem. I can create such oracle and you/someone will enter all available information. The oracle will give an answer on a simple question, we just need to agree on doing as the oracle says.
full member
Activity: 150
Merit: 100
cryptoPag.com
June 20, 2016, 10:00:48 AM
So, when iotatoken and CfB are looking up the possible Scam of CH, what about other Scams that might have occured?

I know it´s wrong, but I also bought some IOTA without escrow, but not at CH.
I still believe I get my IOTAs, but what if not? After Start of Mainnet it´s too late.
So if you´re changing things before the Launch of Mainnet, you should implement all Sales that happened between ICO and Start of Mainnet. Not only CH´s.

It's not our role to be the police. It's quite extraordinary how people repeatedly manage to turn our altruism into some "THIS IS SOMETHING YOU OWE US" again and again, and it's really becoming annoying.

You bought without escrow? Your fault. Not ours, we told you explicitly not to do so 100 times, which was echoed ad nauseam by the rest of the community.

We don't have time to hunt down and freeze every single account that may have been involved in something shady, nor will we. It's not just as easy as "he said, she said" and then we can freeze the account. There might be legitimate reasons for why someone is AFK for a few weeks or months. Child_Harold is a unique case in that he was a known troll and liar, the fact that anyone even considered buying from him without escrow hurts my brain, but it seems he was a big seller, so easy to resolve. If you know of any other big scammer that scammed 10+ people, sure we might find time to look into it, but that is not our job. We got 100 tasks to be done before the imminent launch and babysitting people is not high on that priority list.


Let's all remember that this is a very sensitive situation, and far from being an easy task:

How are the cases be fairly "judged"? What "clear and convincing proof" will be enough as evidence to convince "beyond a reasonable doubt" the right of the self-proclaimed buyers against the sellers (thus considered "scammers")?

Of course, if it is possible to fix the situation without creating a bigger problem, that would be great. But what is being proposed creates the real risk that bad decisions will be taken that will worsen the community situation.

Let's be cautious. In dubio pro reo is the basic notion that sometimes it is better not to act if to avoid enforcing unfair irreversible solutions: solutions taken for the sake of some may better not be taken if there is a clear risk that they can make the problem worse for all.

I am totally favourble to help, as long as it will not jeopardise IOTA, the rest of the community or even the ones in charge of the decision,
legendary
Activity: 1619
Merit: 1004
Bitcoiner, Crypto-anarchist and Cypherpunk.
June 20, 2016, 09:35:32 AM
So, when iotatoken and CfB are looking up the possible Scam of CH, what about other Scams that might have occured?

I know it´s wrong, but I also bought some IOTA without escrow, but not at CH.
I still believe I get my IOTAs, but what if not? After Start of Mainnet it´s too late.
So if you´re changing things before the Launch of Mainnet, you should implement all Sales that happened between ICO and Start of Mainnet. Not only CH´s.

It's not our role to be the police. It's quite extraordinary how people repeatedly manage to turn our altruism into some "THIS IS SOMETHING YOU OWE US" again and again, and it's really becoming annoying.

You bought without escrow? Your fault. Not ours, we told you explicitly not to do so 100 times, which was echoed ad nauseam by the rest of the community.

We don't have time to hunt down and freeze every single account that may have been involved in something shady, nor will we. It's not just as easy as "he said, she said" and then we can freeze the account. There might be legitimate reasons for why someone is AFK for a few weeks or months. Child_Harold is a unique case in that he was a known troll and liar, the fact that anyone even considered buying from him without escrow hurts my brain, but it seems he was a big seller, so easy to resolve. If you know of any other big scammer that scammed 10+ people, sure we might find time to look into it, but that is not our job. We got 100 tasks to be done before the imminent launch and babysitting people is not high on that priority list.


Don't freeze any account and people will not even ask you.
member
Activity: 62
Merit: 10
June 20, 2016, 09:03:00 AM
sadly, i did also buy from child_harold (he is not responding by email either):
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.14584998

...
CarlGraph bought 62.5K (old) IOTA for 1.1BTC
txid: 7962f0b788906083ce7d188e9c29b6ad7c892e5340bb71ae74ca967f0a747d08
...

if there is a solution, which helps the iota-project and hopefully also the buyers to get back a bit i would be happy about it Smiley
but i would also understand, if not. it's our own fault to buy without escrow and it is more important to bring the project forward and to keep trust on to it!

and what happens if child_harrold appears again and says he is willing to transfer the iota's after claiming it, but he don't do so?
sr. member
Activity: 288
Merit: 250
June 20, 2016, 08:57:26 AM

I don´t want you to look up every case, I just wanted to say, that IF you consider to work over CH´s trades, you should do all.
But I think there are more Important Things to be done right now for you both.

I don´t mind if you don´t, it is my own Risk. And if it´s all lost, it´s my own Fault.

If you are brave enough to come here and require help in a non escrowed deal, the least you could do now is POST THE USERNAME of the seller YOU SUSPECT may be scamming. It may help other people to not buy from him, or if its not too late to recover it, or clear up things.

But i guess you dont care much of anyone else, as you didnt care how buying without escrow could affect negatively the community.
hero member
Activity: 734
Merit: 500
June 20, 2016, 07:34:11 AM
So, when iotatoken and CfB are looking up the possible Scam of CH, what about other Scams that might have occured?

I know it´s wrong, but I also bought some IOTA without escrow, but not at CH.
I still believe I get my IOTAs, but what if not? After Start of Mainnet it´s too late.
So if you´re changing things before the Launch of Mainnet, you should implement all Sales that happened between ICO and Start of Mainnet. Not only CH´s.

It's not our role to be the police. It's quite extraordinary how people repeatedly manage to turn our altruism into some "THIS IS SOMETHING YOU OWE US" again and again, and it's really becoming annoying.

You bought without escrow? Your fault. Not ours, we told you explicitly not to do so 100 times, which was echoed ad nauseam by the rest of the community.

We don't have time to hunt down and freeze every single account that may have been involved in something shady, nor will we. It's not just as easy as "he said, she said" and then we can freeze the account. There might be legitimate reasons for why someone is AFK for a few weeks or months. Child_Harold is a unique case in that he was a known troll and liar, the fact that anyone even considered buying from him without escrow hurts my brain, but it seems he was a big seller, so easy to resolve. If you know of any other big scammer that scammed 10+ people, sure we might find time to look into it, but that is not our job. We got 100 tasks to be done before the imminent launch and babysitting people is not high on that priority list.


I don´t want you to look up every case, I just wanted to say, that IF you consider to work over CH´s trades, you should do all.
But I think there are more Important Things to be done right now for you both.

I don´t mind if you don´t, it is my own Risk. And if it´s all lost, it´s my own Fault.
hero member
Activity: 714
Merit: 500
June 20, 2016, 06:23:57 AM
So, when iotatoken and CfB are looking up the possible Scam of CH, what about other Scams that might have occured?

I know it´s wrong, but I also bought some IOTA without escrow, but not at CH.
I still believe I get my IOTAs, but what if not? After Start of Mainnet it´s too late.
So if you´re changing things before the Launch of Mainnet, you should implement all Sales that happened between ICO and Start of Mainnet. Not only CH´s.

It's not our role to be the police. It's quite extraordinary how people repeatedly manage to turn our altruism into some "THIS IS SOMETHING YOU OWE US" again and again, and it's really becoming annoying.

You bought without escrow? Your fault. Not ours, we told you explicitly not to do so 100 times, which was echoed ad nauseam by the rest of the community.

We don't have time to hunt down and freeze every single account that may have been involved in something shady, nor will we. It's not just as easy as "he said, she said" and then we can freeze the account. There might be legitimate reasons for why someone is AFK for a few weeks or months. Child_Harold is a unique case in that he was a known troll and liar, the fact that anyone even considered buying from him without escrow hurts my brain, but it seems he was a big seller, so easy to resolve. If you know of any other big scammer that scammed 10+ people, sure we might find time to look into it, but that is not our job. We got 100 tasks to be done before the imminent launch and babysitting people is not high on that priority list.
legendary
Activity: 2142
Merit: 1010
Newbie
June 20, 2016, 06:05:40 AM
So, when iotatoken and CfB are looking up the possible Scam of CH, what about other Scams that might have occured?

I know it´s wrong, but I also bought some IOTA without escrow, but not at CH.
I still believe I get my IOTAs, but what if not? After Start of Mainnet it´s too late.
So if you´re changing things before the Launch of Mainnet, you should implement all Sales that happened between ICO and Start of Mainnet. Not only CH´s.

Is there a proof that CH scammed, not just grounded without access to a computer?
hero member
Activity: 734
Merit: 500
June 20, 2016, 05:59:52 AM
So, when iotatoken and CfB are looking up the possible Scam of CH, what about other Scams that might have occured?

I know it´s wrong, but I also bought some IOTA without escrow, but not at CH.
I still believe I get my IOTAs, but what if not? After Start of Mainnet it´s too late.
So if you´re changing things before the Launch of Mainnet, you should implement all Sales that happened between ICO and Start of Mainnet. Not only CH´s.
hero member
Activity: 826
Merit: 532
June 20, 2016, 04:31:17 AM
I started collecting my transactions with child_harold. Maybe the other guys bought from him, can document their tx as well. So we do have a overview regarding the possible scam...
I still keep my fingers crossed and hope child_harold will come around the corner.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1m8xxfp7n4-FUszKMvlzVKykGa5BXM-BTlHwWGnwRnrk

update?
hero member
Activity: 826
Merit: 532
June 20, 2016, 04:26:42 AM

Maybe there is a solution.

Greetz
It seems that the only solution is to return child_harold

copper member
Activity: 6
Merit: 0
June 20, 2016, 03:42:28 AM
Bought 2 lil chunks from child-Harold:

10000 (old)IOTA @0.25BTC// TXID: edfdc3563df50a05e3acea47ad7b9fbe0b57cd38bff6760723966e34c240184b
confirm-post: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.14169457

10000 (old)IOTA @0.30BTC// TXID: e8de5d962ce3f23e2d719df4fe4f0bdac514c32dcfa4c6cf80f00ad6dc5d591d
confirm-post: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.14289504

Maybe there is a solution.

Greetz
hero member
Activity: 722
Merit: 500
June 19, 2016, 05:26:23 PM
I don't have time to follow IOTA anymore but I also bought from child_harold.

Quote
03/29/2016 14:22       0.4   Sent to 1HD23HA2vdmwF4w67KbyoMBrtimYr9fUaU
txid 252aed4f7af4aa3e9257f5f5509aae5ef5c1d485c24e0ceff3a1651fb16c3a24

All done Smiley

The confirmation post: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.14352749

Hopefully some of the solutions being discussed can be implemented to try and recover some of the Iota.

Thanks.
legendary
Activity: 1457
Merit: 1033
June 19, 2016, 01:08:18 PM
How is the escrow taking place here.

I feel like seller has full control here. Since things IOTA will only go once wallet is released, if the price is higher than 'agreed price', seller probably will back out, if price is lower than agreed price then escrow deal would go through. Its not a 'true' escrow unless BTC and IOTA are both in escrow.
+1

Huh

First, the wallet is released, then after some time iota launches officially, then after a week or so it gets listed on exchanges.

The sellers have more than enough time to send the iotas before there is an open market price.

But agreed, sellers should have put up a collateral.

Tanks, sounds good for me  Smiley
legendary
Activity: 817
Merit: 1000
June 19, 2016, 10:55:39 AM
My up to date sale amounts:

111,181,240,000.00    @ 1 btc          cc001
333,543,720,000.00    @ 3btc           schnib
222,362,480,000.00    @ 2btc           Metaphilibert
111,181,240,000.00    @ 1 btc          Yeash20
333,543,720,000.00    @ 3 btc          arjen01
166,771,860,000.00    @ 1.5btc        MoneyTeam
11,118,124,000.00      @ 0.1btc        tk88one
138,976,550,000.00    @ 1.25 btc      proto
22,236,248,000.00      @ 0.2 btc       adam9910
222,362,480,000.00    @ 2 btc          Dexter12
8,894,499,200,000.00  @ 80 Btc        bigiotabig
55,590,620,000.00      @ 0.5 Btc       Torn
111,181,240,000.00    @ 1 btc          zzzman20
111,181,240,000.00    @ 1 btc          transpotime21bus
22,236,248,000          @ 0.2 btc       adam9910
333,543,720,000.00    @ 3 btc          ramsroyal
222,362,480,000.00    @ 2 btc          mr001
113,960,771,000        @ 1.025 btc     braelis
544,788,076,000        @ 4.9 btc        [anon]
55,590,620,000          @ 0.5 btc        SupZ
200G                       @ 2 btc           hasseklas
240g.                      @ 2btc.            Olloman

New sale, Congrats to olloman!

Still selling 3,760G IOTA for sale at a rate of 1 BTC == 120G IOTA.

As a well known, respected and trustworthy community member, please use me for all your last minute buying needs!
copper member
Activity: 7
Merit: 0
June 19, 2016, 08:30:52 AM
@888cj , u can add me to that list as well.
Bought 50K (old iota) for 1.5btc from child_harold.
TXID: 0be6f17a5052334335bc278899850c727e034571babb187510e9f171f80c624a
Confirm post: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.14355896


sr. member
Activity: 288
Merit: 250
June 19, 2016, 07:43:20 AM
expect those over sold and not delivered iotas to be dumped on the market as soon as iota reaches the exchanges... i'd advise all to be ready for the cheap buys

I dont think that will have much impact. I expect iota to have decent volume, and those guys wont have an impact. Also, there is no correlation on the possible oversold scam, to what they really think of iota, or if they plan to hold longterm. Exchange trades are anonymous.

In fact i think that creates more buying pressure. Because nothing changed for the scammer position, but all failed buyers, who wanted to be in iota, would still want to buy.
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